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[HertogJan]

finaly a F***ing good ideea and you start trooling, MAKE THE STEAL SKILL LIKE THE COMBAT TIMEOUT FOR ! GOD DAMED F***ING MINUTE!!!!!
Stop Theivery suport!!!this game suports the ideea of a theif!!!!!

STOP THEIFS!!!

This game supports a lot of different characters to play. Thieves are just 1.
If you're refering to the combat time-out when trying to leave an encounter, it's only 9 seconds.
Stealing is no more or less lame than PK in groups. You should know, you're in a faction with PKs and at least 1 thief.

If the victim knows who stole from him, it counts as being caught. Not maybe from the game's point of view but that's where the retardness and annoyance comes from: knowing who is the criminal but not being able to retaliate in any way than running away.

Talking about retardness.
In real life you might know who stole from you, but you're nowhere if you can't proof it.
From the game's point of view the answer would be to shoot the thief.
However that would require "fixing" the looting by guards.

The real reason to alting in this case is that the game doesn't encourage dedicating time to invidual char enough, it's a global problem related to all chars. Basically every class or skill related suggestions could be rejected by reasoning that it will be ruined by alts or some exploit that hasn't been fixed yet. If we're going to discuss steal, then there has to be an agreement that some issues we're having now will be fixed in advance. This means that stealing should work so that a player could play a thief character without feeling the need to delete it and make a new one or resort to the help of additional characters. If you disagree in this case an think that it's okay to simply waste characters like they were disposable tools, we're not going to reach any agreement due to differend stands   

Don't implement the ridiculous "I tell the guards" idea to destroy people's rep. Than there's no need to recreate or create new alts. There currently is no reason to delete and recreate a thief alt, unless you messed up during character creation or leveling.
Even guards in a post apocalyptic wasteland would be laughing at you when you told them and would tell you to watch your stuff better.
Especially if you're not in their faction.
The whole issue with stealing right now is people harassing others by pretending to use it. Once again, no reason to fix a skill which isn't broken.

Shoot&loot abuse is an exploit, stealing is not. It's not far-sighted point of view to see shoot'n'loot exploit as part of gameplay. But it's not this thread's role to solve shooting and looting in safe towns.

A good shoot&loot team actually uses the steal skill to look at people's inventory before taking action.
No need to shoot a potential thief or someone who's hardly carrying anything.

[wezu]

I don't get it. What is the goal of keeping this skill in the game?
People who play this game for a month or more have learned to avoid thiefs by meta-gaming (there is no game mechanic stealing protection), only new players lose items they realy need. Stealing isn't a important part of the game, it's like gambling you can live without it. 

I still think there is no solution to steal trolling and everything I've read here is pointless. Making stealing more difficult or having more bad sides only forces one to have more and more alts.

[HertogJan]

Actually stealing, both from players or npc, is rather lucrative.
You can join an npc faction and steal from them in their encounters.
Not all stuff stolen is useful, but it can be traded for useful stuff.

[avv]

Talking about retardness.From the game's point of view the answer would be to shoot the thief.
However that would require "fixing" the looting by guards.

That's right. The guard loot acted as fast-fix attempt for loot&shoot and suicide bombing, not thief-shooting.

Don't implement the ridiculous "I tell the guards" idea to destroy people's rep.

The point is to make playing a thief seem like you were really a thief: hated by your victims and vulnerable to the punishments. However while your -rep would grow in the eyes of law-abiding people, your +rep would rise from the criminal's point of view. So if player wanted high rep with for example hub criminals, he'd better start stealing but that would also result in being hated by his victims.
In addition the "tell the guards" represents better how rep works. Currently your rep diminishes over time, it represents how people forget your crimes. However players don't forget so fast so it's unfair towards them. If players could report your crimes you'd only get back your rep by paying back what you did or hoping someone really forgot what you did, which wouldn't result in +rep but just not getting shot instantly.

Than there's no need to recreate or create new alts. There currently is no reason to delete and recreate an thief alt, unless you messed up during character creation or leveling.

You don't have to create new characters if you just accept the fact that playing the role of thief means that you're not the most liked guy. Especially if you steal so that everyone sees it and knows your status. If you manage to steal so that nobody sees it, nobody's going to report your name. 

Even guards in a post apocalyptic wasteland would be laughing at you when you told them and would tell you to watch your stuff better.
Especially if you're not in their faction.

Maybe, but after a dozen of reports they might actually look into it.

The whole issue with stealing right now is people harassing others by pretending to use it. Once again, no reason to fix a skill which isn't broken.

Actually this pretending is possible only because players can't resist a stealing attempt in any way than running away. The animation is another reason but even if it was changed, it could still be abused.

[HertogJan]

That's right. The guard loot acted as fast-fix attempt for loot&shoot and suicide bombing, not thief-shooting.

Anyone can shoot a thief, not just the victim.

The point is to make playing a thief seem like you were really a thief: hated by your victims and vulnerable to the punishments. However while your -rep would grow in the eyes of law-abiding people, your +rep would rise from the criminal's point of view. So if player wanted high rep with for example hub criminals, he'd better start stealing but that would also result in being hated by his victims.
In addition the "tell the guards" represents better how rep works. Currently your rep diminishes over time, it represents how people forget your crimes. However players don't forget so fast so it's unfair towards them. If players could report your crimes you'd only get back your rep by paying back what you did or hoping someone really forgot what you did, which wouldn't result in +rep but just not getting shot instantly.

As a thief you're already hated by those who know you, by your victims and have a neutral or worse rep with the town's npc faction(s). So you're also already punished. The negative reputation makes it troublesome and very risky to travel. Any encounter with any faction you have a less than -300 rep with means you'll most likely get shot. Thief characters aren't fighter builds, so they're not likely to survive an encounter. Especially with the time out after getting attacked.

You don't have to create new characters if you just accept the fact that playing the role of thief means that you're not the most liked guy. Especially if you steal so that everyone sees it and knows your status. If you manage to steal so that nobody sees it, nobody's going to report your name. 

If stealing and therefore the usage of your character becomes basically impossible, you have no other choice. People already see you stealing so they know who you are and what you do.

Maybe, but after a dozen of reports they might actually look into it.

As long as their faction isn't a victim and as long as it's not inside their walls (Junktown, VC inner city, etc.) they wouldn't care.

Actually this pretending is possible only because players can't resist a stealing attempt in any way than running away. The animation is another reason but even if it was changed, it could still be abused.

Either you suspect someone to be a thief or you know, there is no other way to resist. At most you can shout thief, but such things are already done.
Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of being able to mark 1 player as a thief and use autopush on it when he gets too close.
No matter what you change, it can still be abused. Just go stand next to someone.

[avv]

As a thief you're already hated by those who know you, by your victims and have a neutral or worse rep with the town's npc faction(s). So you're also already punished. The negative reputation makes it troublesome and very risky to travel. Any encounter with any faction you have a less than -300 rep with means you'll most likely get shot. Thief characters aren't fighter builds, so they're not likely to survive an encounter. Especially with the time out after getting attacked.

Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol. 

If stealing and therefore the usage of your character becomes basically impossible, you have no other choice. People already see you stealing so they know who you are and what you do.

Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.

As long as their faction isn't a victim and as long as it's not inside their walls (Junktown, VC inner city, etc.) they wouldn't care.

Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.

Either you suspect someone to be a thief or you know, there is no other way to resist. At most you can shout thief, but such things are already done.
Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of being able to mark 1 player as a thief and use autopush on it when he gets too close.
No matter what you change, it can still be abused. Just go stand next to someone.

That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.

[HertogJan]

Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol.

If I remember correctly thieves should lose protection for 1 real time hour when they fail. Meaning everyone can shoot them on sight in guarded towns.
At some point thieves will most likely want to move their stuff either to their faction or to sell. I doubt they'll be carrying as much as possible.
Hostile encounters are a big deal for thieves since they most likely have a worse than -300 rep with the town's faction. Which happen to be the npc you might encounter around their town. With a rep worse than -300 it doesn't matter if you're having a gun in your active slot or not.

Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.

As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such. So their rep would slightly improve as it does now. With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.

Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.

And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.

That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.

No, that's a bad suggestion. At most it would be harder as the target would get increased PE and/or the bonuses for stealing from the side or back would be canceled. The autopush was suggested as tagging it to 1 thief max.

[avv]

As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such.

As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.

With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.

Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us. 

What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.

While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.

And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.

That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.

No, that's a bad suggestion.

It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.

[HertogJan]

As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.

Problem solved than. You don't know, you can't tell, you can't do anything about it.

Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us. 

You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.
We can tag them red.

What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.

This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.

While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.

Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.
A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.

That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.

That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.

It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.

It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.

[avv]

You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.

There's the LoS, we can't see beyond it so we do see things from our char's point of view. Somehow we just see behind us.

This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.

That's to prevent players from mastering everything. Dice rolls are okay if there are ways to affect them via situational ingame decisions. Reduce your enemy's chances and raise your own. Stealing has basically no ways to affect the dice roll's outcome via ingame decisions.

Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.

Except when using pickpocket perk.

A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.

A win in fonline terms means lost equipment. Because thieves doubtfully steal while wearing CA and carrying 10k caps their losses are quaranteed to be minimal, but the victim's losses can be very high. If the victim is forced to move, it's either draw or victory to the thief if his plan was just to harass. Thief cannot really lose unless he starts to carry expensive stuff with him.

That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.

His reputation works as proof. The report feature would work so that you simply cannot stage players.

It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.

He can try to draw my attention all he likes but if I know he's a thief no tricks can save him.

[HertogJan]

There's the LoS, we can't see beyond it so we do see things from our char's point of view. Somehow we just see behind us.

You're LoS is less behind you, it can and will be used by thieves, sneak bursters, etc.

That's to prevent players from mastering everything. Dice rolls are okay if there are ways to affect them via situational ingame decisions. Reduce your enemy's chances and raise your own. Stealing has basically no ways to affect the dice roll's outcome via ingame decisions.

Most in-game none combat related skills have a dice roll you can't influence.
Even the ones you can, like critical hits, have a dice roll.
Sometimes when leveling my lockpicker alt I have 1 critical hit after another on molerats. 1 hour later I can hardly get a critical hit on molerats while still using the same alt.

Except when using pickpocket perk.

I tried stealing from the front on an npc and failed more often than stealing from behind.
After I got pickpocket skill.
Major difference I noticed in that skill is that it became easier to steal large and heavy objects.

A win in fonline terms means lost equipment. Because thieves doubtfully steal while wearing CA and carrying 10k caps their losses are quaranteed to be minimal, but the victim's losses can be very high. If the victim is forced to move, it's either draw or victory to the thief if his plan was just to harass. Thief cannot really lose unless he starts to carry expensive stuff with him.

People aren't exactly running around with 10k caps and CA in their inventory either.
As for harassing, once again, you don't need a high steal skill for that.
Every one of my none thief alts can use it to harass people.
Or just use repair, lockpick, etc. instead.

His reputation works as proof. The report feature would work so that you simply cannot stage players.

That makes no sense. Reputation can also be bad due to shop shooting or bursting protected people or something as simple as standing in a door opening too long.

He can try to draw my attention all he likes but if I know he's a thief no tricks can save him.

Which goes back to the isometric view. You don't know he's a thief unless he failed stealing from you.

[igooor]

The current thief disbalance is that thieves has nothing to loose, so thay can annoying you even failing come back and every time when that thief come close you should move.
The simplest solution - make a tool for stealing, valuable enough - so thieves would also have smth to loose - that would be a wise balance)

[HertogJan]

It wouldn't change a thing.
Items are easy to get, valuable or not.

Last few times when I failed, died and came back to both Junktown and the Hub I was unprotected after death.
Meaning you could shoot me on the spot.

[avv]

It wouldn't change a thing.
Items are easy to get, valuable or not.

Why don't you start stealing while wearing CA if it's so easy to get?

Last few times when I failed, died and came back to both Junktown and the Hub I was unprotected after death.
Meaning you could shoot me on the spot.

So what? You didn't suffer any material losses.

[Floodnik]

Why don't you start stealing while wearing CA if it's so easy to get?

Because that would be a waste of CA. It's easy to get it or not, it's still a waste

So what? You didn't suffer any material losses.

He lost his TIME. Time is very important in real life and in this game. Thieves need patience.