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[avv]

I must be doing something wrong than.
Recently my thief alt did a lot of trading in Junktown, the only rep increase that alt had was from staying logged out for a day.
No rep increase visible.

Only certain sold items give +rep. Haven't tested much but ropes are one product that might get you additional rep but only to certain merchants. Sha Enin or Buster used to provide +rep if you sold him ropes. So basically a thief needs to do some crimes, then sell some farmed crap items to a local merchant. In San Fran I raised my rep up to 1000 during one day by just selling ropes to The Western Star shopkeeper. 

Your suggestion about reporting thievery to lawkeepers simply means people steal till there rep is -1500 than move to another town. When there rep is bad everywhere they simply use ~deleteself and start all over again.

This is the problem of entirely differend matter: that players don't care about their characters.
Besides, if some thief was succesfully driven away from a town via this report system, it'd give at least some free days from his harassment. Maybe he's in another town, but so what? It's their problem.

Another thing is that it will lead to thieves cooperating and using steal together. You go figure who actually stole something.
Not the mention the none Russians among us will have a problem with the cyrillic names which makes it abuseable.

You could give any name to the sheriff but if it's incorrect, nothing would happen. If there was 2 players co-operating, the victim would need to write 2 names and check which one was the right one. Just because we got cyrillic names a feature shouldn't be rejected. Cyrillic names could be just globally banned, they cause problems with recognization already.

It's the players complaining about thievery who give it a bad reputation.
Together with the players, and many aren't thieves, who pretend to use steal on people just to harass them.

Obviously the ones abusing steal won't call it abuse, griefing or problematic. I bet it's somewhat entertaining to play as a thief and cause a fuzz in safe towns but in the end it's just harassment. That's because the benefits of thievery are rather mild because you can't choose what your victims have. If you want stuff, it'd be better just farm encounters.

[Keldorn]

I don't worry about thieving so much as folks using it to fuck with people.

IE:  Someone tries to sell items but has to cancel the attempt everytime a thief feels like stealing.  If the thief were to do tihis all day, it would force said seller to move to a different city to attempt to sell goods.

Also potentially a tactic to monopolize merchant cap respawns if enough thieves are around.  Now is thisconsidered"griefing" or "exploiting"?

[5me0]

It has moved on to exploitation now:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=11815.0

[Surf]

That exploit is as old as the game even is.

[HertogJan]

This is the problem of entirely differend matter: that players don't care about their characters.
Besides, if some thief was succesfully driven away from a town via this report system, it'd give at least some free days from his harassment. Maybe he's in another town, but so what? It's their problem.

So you think NCR is okay with thieves moving to another town within their influence?
I doubt it.
Thieves moving to another town is not a solution as most people travel around, at least from time to time.

You could give any name to the sheriff but if it's incorrect, nothing would happen. If there was 2 players co-operating, the victim would need to write 2 names and check which one was the right one. Just because we got cyrillic names a feature shouldn't be rejected. Cyrillic names could be just globally banned, they cause problems with recognization already.

With the way npc operate now, 1 person talking to an npc at a time, this will be open for exploitation. Just keep the guy occupied.
It will also lead to people simply feeding names to the npc over and over again.
Wether or not cyrillic names should be banned, is not something I'm interested in.
They have their good and bad sides, a good side is it's easy to spot and avoid a certain type of players.

Obviously the ones abusing steal won't call it abuse, griefing or problematic. I bet it's somewhat entertaining to play as a thief and cause a fuzz in safe towns but in the end it's just harassment. That's because the benefits of thievery are rather mild because you can't choose what your victims have.

Obviously you don't really know what you're talking about.
I play a thief, stealing mostly from npc and people I tagged red (PK, thieves, taggers, assholes, etc.).
Most people I see using steal on people aren't thieves, with exception of NCR bazar.
They simply use steal on people in order to scare others away from the trader so they don't have to wait.
I encountered several players in the last few hours doing this in both Junktown and the Hub.
IMO that is harassement.
Using the steal skill to steal isn't.
You can't choose what your victim has, but you can choose what you steal and what you don't steal.
I only steal stuff that's worth a few k or stuff me or my faction can use.
I also choose to leave low level players, shit shovelers and people carrying caravan boxes alone.

If you want stuff, it'd be better just farm encounters.

Lets get rid of traders than.

I don't worry about thieving so much as folks using it to fuck with people.

IE:  Someone tries to sell items but has to cancel the attempt everytime a thief feels like stealing.  If the thief were to do tihis all day, it would force said seller to move to a different city to attempt to sell goods.

Also potentially a tactic to monopolize merchant cap respawns if enough thieves are around.  Now is thisconsidered"griefing" or "exploiting"?

That's exactly what I have been saying.
Some people abuse the steal/FA/etc. animation to pretend to be stealing.
You don't have to be a thief to do so.
Use lockpick, repair, etc. on someone to get the same animation.

[Ulrek]

How about this for an idea? you move the barter interface out of the way so you can see, and move if someone comes up and uses a animation on you thats a bluesuit?

Even griefers rarely wear metal armor. or leather armor when pick pocketing.

-Ulrek-

[avv]

So you think NCR is okay with thieves moving to another town within their influence?
I doubt it.
Thieves moving to another town is not a solution as most people travel around, at least from time to time.

Towns under ncr control could have shared rep.

With the way npc operate now, 1 person talking to an npc at a time, this will be open for exploitation. Just keep the guy occupied.
It will also lead to people simply feeding names to the npc over and over again.

Nobody's gonna occupy some npc 24/h a day. If we had people who'd be ready to that kind of abuse, hotel room vendors would have been targetted long ago.

Dunno why it would lead to people feeding names over and over again if you couldn't report anyone else but the one who stole from you.

Most people I see using steal on people aren't thieves, with exception of NCR bazar.
They simply use steal on people in order to scare others away from the trader so they don't have to wait.
I encountered several players in the last few hours doing this in both Junktown and the Hub.
IMO that is harassement.
Using the steal skill to steal isn't.

What difference would it make whether they used FA or steal but didn't take anything? The result would be the same. Even if steal didn't have any animation, just standing right next to someone would scare others away in same way as now.

But in the end the reason why stealing is close to abuse is the way it works: you have to run away from a thief. A player who recognizes an obvious thief cannot respond to the criminal's presence in any rational way. He can't punch, shoot or report him unless npc guards notices his robberies.

[Keldorn]

Would love to hear a response from the devs:

In a way thieves and the lack of a thief animation gives assholes carte blanche to grief people.

They pretty much control if someone will get an opportunity to utilize a vendor.  One could say its paranoia.  So is it abuse?

[HertogJan]

Towns under ncr control could have shared rep.

Shared rep between towns would only cause more issues and yet another reason to have alts.

Nobody's gonna occupy some npc 24/h a day. If we had people who'd be ready to that kind of abuse, hotel room vendors would have been targetted long ago.

Dunno why it would lead to people feeding names over and over again if you couldn't report anyone else but the one who stole from you.

You go into town with a few friends. 1 isn't a thief and he keeps the npc guy occupied for the time his friends are stealing.

What difference would it make whether they used FA or steal but didn't take anything? The result would be the same. Even if steal didn't have any animation, just standing right next to someone would scare others away in same way as now.

Standing next to someone at a traders scares people away for more reasons than just the risk of getting stolen from.
Changing the animation means it can't be abused. Someone using it is most likely going to steal from you.

But in the end the reason why stealing is close to abuse is the way it works: you have to run away from a thief. A player who recognizes an obvious thief cannot respond to the criminal's presence in any rational way. He can't punch, shoot or report him unless npc guards notices his robberies.

Most people playing are criminals in one way or another, stealing, shooting npc, shooting pc, ...
As long as they're protected, you can't do anything about it.
That's how it works in guarded towns.
Don't like it, go to an unguarded town.

[avv]

You go into town with a few friends. 1 isn't a thief and he keeps the npc guy occupied for the time his friends are stealing.

The npc might not be occupied after one hour later, or tomorrow.

Changing the animation means it can't be abused. Someone using it is most likely going to steal from you.

Even if you change the animation, abusers could use it but not steal anything, just look in the victim's inventory. That would work exactly as harassing others with some other than steal skill animation which happens right now. Only if looking in someone's pocket would count as steal attempt, it would work better.

Most people playing are criminals in one way or another, stealing, shooting npc, shooting pc, ...
As long as they're protected, you can't do anything about it.
That's how it works in guarded towns.

"That's how it works" isn't good enough reasoning. 
It doesn't matter what you do outside the town as long as it citizens, members or allies aren't involved. Doesn't make you a criminal in ncr's eyes if you rob someone in Modoc. If a player chooses to play thief inside ncr, it means that he doesn't care about the local law so shouldn't that make him an unprotected outlaw?

If you want to get back the law's protection you should repay your wrongdoings to the victim and him only. If players are ready to make alts to get away from that, then they do. It's pretty good slap on someone's face to force him to delete his character and level up a new one.

[HertogJan]

The npc might not be occupied after one hour later, or tomorrow.

By than the thief isn't around anymore.

Even if you change the animation, abusers could use it but not steal anything, just look in the victim's inventory. That would work exactly as harassing others with some other than steal skill animation which happens right now. Only if looking in someone's pocket would count as steal attempt, it would work better.

Of course it can still be abused. But if it's a unique animation, you can't pretend which means the one using it has a 30 seconds cooldown. Which means less griefing/abuse. It's still not perfect, but it will be a lot better than it is now.

"That's how it works" isn't good enough reasoning. 
It doesn't matter what you do outside the town as long as it citizens, members or allies aren't involved. Doesn't make you a criminal in ncr's eyes if you rob someone in Modoc. If a player chooses to play thief inside ncr, it means that he doesn't care about the local law so shouldn't that make him an unprotected outlaw?

So rep can only be changed by doing certain actions in towns?
So if I'm a mass murderer killing everyone just 1 square from NCR I'm fine?

If you want to get back the law's protection you should repay your wrongdoings to the victim and him only. If players are ready to make alts to get away from that, then they do. It's pretty good slap on someone's face to force him to delete his character and level up a new one.

No it's not. It's not hard to level a thief, especially not if you can do it on mutated molerats.
At most it's boring.
The whole repay for wrong doings makes no sense. You're never fully save anywhere. It doesn't matter if you're carrying anything or not.
Someone shooting a thief, accidentely killing someone else who was low on hp but carrying stuff. Guards loot the victim, shooter has to repay the victim.
We'll end up with half the player base having to repay the other half.

[avv]

By than the thief isn't around anymore.

Doesn't matter, he'd still get the -rep when his name was given to the police.

Of course it can still be abused. But if it's a unique animation, you can't pretend which means the one using it has a 30 seconds cooldown. Which means less griefing/abuse. It's still not perfect, but it will be a lot better than it is now.

Does the 30 sec cooldown apply when only looking at someone's inventory? Because if it doesn't the new animation would be useless against fake-stealing abuse. Someone could just look at your inventory without taking anything, thus causing harassment without penalty.

So rep can only be changed by doing certain actions in towns?
So if I'm a mass murderer killing everyone just 1 square from NCR I'm fine?

Better keep it at stealing, not mass murdering here. But if you shoot some people who aren't related to ncr in any way one square away from it, there's no need for rep loss because you didn't harm ncr.

No it's not. It's not hard to level a thief, especially not if you can do it on mutated molerats.
At most it's boring.

It's still something. Then again it'd be better if players didn't want to make alts so easily.

The whole repay for wrong doings makes no sense. You're never fully save anywhere. It doesn't matter if you're carrying anything or not.Someone shooting a thief, accidentely killing someone else who was low on hp but carrying stuff. Guards loot the victim, shooter has to repay the victim.

Wouldn't apply the payback rule to shooting because in that situation the shooter also dies and nobody actually profits, unless some shoot'n'loot abuse was involved. It would work only when it comes to stealing.

[HertogJan]

Doesn't matter, he'd still get the -rep when his name was given to the police.

You weren't caught, you didn't fail, no reason to receive a penalty.

Does the 30 sec cooldown apply when only looking at someone's inventory? Because if it doesn't the new animation would be useless against fake-stealing abuse. Someone could just look at your inventory without taking anything, thus causing harassment without penalty.

Using steal on a player or npc starts the cooldown. Still it won't stop people using it for shop shooting purposes.

Better keep it at stealing, not mass murdering here. But if you shoot some people who aren't related to ncr in any way one square away from it, there's no need for rep loss because you didn't harm ncr.

Funny, the same goes on for people who are stealing than.
You didn't harm NCR if you don't steal from them.
The vendor potentially losing business applies here as well.
Not to mention the bad rep NCR would get for not being able to keep their surroundings secure.

It's still something. Then again it'd be better if players didn't want to make alts so easily.

Which is why they shouldn't be given yet an extra reason.

Wouldn't apply the payback rule to shooting because in that situation the shooter also dies and nobody actually profits, unless some shoot'n'loot abuse was involved. It would work only when it comes to stealing.

Which will lead to more shoot and loot abuse.
You're not solving anything there.

[LagMaster]

finaly a F***ing good ideea and you start trooling, MAKE THE STEAL SKILL LIKE THE COMBAT TIMEOUT FOR ! GOD DAMED F***ING MINUTE!!!!!
Stop Theivery suport!!!this game suports the ideea of a theif!!!!!

STOP THEIFS!!!

[avv]

You weren't caught, you didn't fail, no reason to receive a penalty.

If the victim knows who stole from him, it counts as being caught. Not maybe from the game's point of view but that's where the retardness and annoyance comes from: knowing who is the criminal but not being able to retaliate in any way than running away.

Which is why they shouldn't be given yet an extra reason.

The real reason to alting in this case is that the game doesn't encourage dedicating time to invidual char enough, it's a global problem related to all chars. Basically every class or skill related suggestions could be rejected by reasoning that it will be ruined by alts or some exploit that hasn't been fixed yet. If we're going to discuss steal, then there has to be an agreement that some issues we're having now will be fixed in advance. This means that stealing should work so that a player could play a thief character without feeling the need to delete it and make a new one or resort to the help of additional characters. If you disagree in this case an think that it's okay to simply waste characters like they were disposable tools, we're not going to reach any agreement due to differend stands   

Which will lead to more shoot and loot abuse.
You're not solving anything there.

Shoot&loot abuse is an exploit, stealing is not. It's not far-sighted point of view to see shoot'n'loot exploit as part of gameplay. But it's not this thread's role to solve shooting and looting in safe towns.