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[OskaRus]

Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot. AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot. Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.

I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower. If i would want to fight with the enemy for minutes I would play WoW. And even there blows are delivered instantly. 

Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)

But I agree that having only one combat system would game cleaner more predictable and maybe easier to maintain for Devs.

[avv]

Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot.

Yes there is. You have to notice the enemy, turn yourself and your gun towards him, put him in the sights and pull the trigger. It takes time and is incredibly important element in combat, especially in close quarters situations. That's why in close quarters combat submachine guns, pistols and shotguns are more favoured, because they can be turned fast and aimed quickly. It might be just 0,3 seconds faster but that advantage can save your life. Ever seen swat storming houses with snipers and heavymachine guns?

AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot.

But if there's no need to shoot again or take any cover after taking the shot what's he regaining action points then for? Besides what cover? It doesn't matter at all if I got full aps or not, there's no cover benefit from them.
If the re-targetting takes for example 5 seconds, how can we target someone instantly at first shot but after that we have to spend time targetting again? I mean at the first shot the enemy might had appeared from no-where and somehow we managed to target him as fast as we click, but the second targetting takes time. Doesn't make any sense.
Or are we perhaps recovering from the recoil?
 

Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.

But what do we need weapon skills for if you think that we're supposed to target our enemies with reflexes and finesse with mousehand?
Besides, reflexes are related to first person shooters. Don't really know what fonline is supposed to be but for sure it aint first person shooter. There is even reflex-based stat in fallout, it's called sequence but it has no use in real time.

The true reason to the state of targetting and ap spending in real time is that our devs simply haven't done anything about it. In fallout singleplayers devs didn't have to think of this because combat was pure turn based, no reflexes needed there. They didn't have to think of delays before aiming because everyone had their own turn. They didn't have to think about damage per second because nobody regenerated aps in real time.
However these delays are included in the action point costs. It takes more ap to aim and turn a sniper than it takes to do the same with 14mm pistol, that's because sniper is long and heavier weapon. It takes long to shoot a minigun because it is heavy weapon and doesn't turn 90 degrees instantly.

I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower.

Depends on how it was implemented. As a raw, it wouldn't be much better. But it has better basis than current instashot system. For example if we had to spend 2 aps to turn a gun and 2 aps to aim it, these actions could be prepared before you meet the enemy. If you knew an enemy will appear behind a corner you could turn into that direction and start aiming at the spot you expect him to arrive, thus winning 4 ap lead in combat. This is called strategy and it would offer vast possibilities and options in combat. In addition when combat is slower, theres more time for teamwork because you can predict your teammates actions and react to what happens to them. You could even chat with them because fast reflexes wouldn't be so necessary.

Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)

But wouldn't this slower the combat since it took more time to kill people? Besides, it's good that weapons are deadly. We just need more strategic options to have a chance to avoid getting hit. Wearing the best armor isn't a strategic option, it's self-evidence.

[kttdestroyer]

Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot. AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot. Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.

I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower. If i would want to fight with the enemy for minutes I would play WoW. And even there blows are delivered instantly.  

Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)

But I agree that having only one combat system would game cleaner more predictable and maybe easier to maintain for Devs.

Bullshit. Where do you see sniper shoting instantly aiming to the eyes? You see no diffrence between aiming and just pulling the trigger? In real life? Using a scope? If your real life view is based on hollywood movies then... Although even those tend to be closer to reality.

Where do you see people with miniguns turning 180 degrees and shooting in a instant? Have you even tried to turn around 180 degrees in real life? Makes one wonder... Becouse it doesint really happen instantly... Now imagine that with a 50 kg weapon (probobly a lot more heavy?).

"Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is"
It really isint. At least as long as a burst is not one big flying bullet. And word "aim" means, that you try to shot a specific spot, just shooting is not equal to aiming.

"buffing armors and buffing player HPs"
Yes, its allready great fun to stand infront of eachother with 240+ hp chars and shot, its like playing cards, hoping next card will be a joker. You can watch a movie while doing this, becouse it is not really "happening" much in those situations. There is not many; "Hey, lets do like this", becouse there is little diffrence, two groups will still meet, and if you flank your enemy, the only bonus you will get is first shot, which is nothing much of advantage practically, becouse it often is easly overpowered by luck roll after it.

From what i understand, you are a fan of shot-em-ups, which would make sense. My personal view on this, is quite diffrent then yours, becouse i would like something more then just pull the trigger. I would like to think when i play, not only hope for a crittical, i would like to have ability to overpower enemies critticals by using my braincells. I would like the current weapon classes to have their true porpose. Snipers staying far away and acually act as snipers, bursters sneaking and flanking. Well, whatever, lets just change name of the game to "Fonline: Counter-strike gone Isometric".  

Ever seen swat storming houses with snipers and heavymachine guns?

I guess the SWAT members have not played Fonline?

[OskaRus]

Bullshit. Where do you see sniper shoting instantly aiming to the eyes? You see no diffrence between aiming and just pulling the trigger? In real life? Using a scope? If your real life view is based on hollywood movies then... Although even those tend to be closer to reality.

Yep. Aiming takes time but it is nothing like given countdown. You aim and pull the trigger and shot is delivered instantly.

Where do you see people with miniguns turning 180 degrees and shooting in a instant? Have you even tried to turn around 180 degrees in real life? Makes one wonder... Becouse it doesint really happen instantly... Now imagine that with a 50 kg weapon (probobly a lot more heavy?).

Yep turning 180 degrees in real life with light machinegun (7kg) in hands and tactical west full of gear took me about half a second. Minigun weghts 14+- kgs and with straps it is reasonable weigth.
Advantage of looking right way before enemies approach is evident. You just can see them due to FOW. (Which is great feature IMO)

just shooting is not equal to aiming.

True true. But what is the aiming you are doing yourself by clicking on enemy? Isnt it that?

From what i understand, you are a fan of shot-em-ups, which would make sense. My personal view on this, is quite diffrent then yours, becouse i would like something more then just pull the trigger. I would like to think when i play, not only hope for a crittical, i would like to have ability to overpower enemies critticals by using my braincells.

Actually I am more of strategy game and RPG player which sucks in FPS. ;-) I dont know how much do you involve in big organised fights like TC but there are really ways how to outsmart more powerfull enemy. Those fights start to look more like RTS which i really like. Flanking is really useful strategy now.

I would like the current weapon classes to have their true porpose. Snipers staying far away and acually act as snipers, bursters sneaking and flanking.

That is happening. Good snipers with some PvP experience really holds all the time on max range from enemy and snipe from afar and big gunners are running through narrow streets to get to range.

Well, whatever, lets just change name of the game to "Fonline: Counter-strike gone Isometric".  
I guess the SWAT members have not played Fonline?

Well some actions filmed by rogues or chosens really look as nice as swat actions from movies. xD

I will insult you who are for this suggestion but i thik that most of the suggestions for changing combat system are from Fallout singleplayers who want to own players in TB as they did in Fallout with npcs but have no good powerbuild, no will to make him, low PvP experience, low stuff and are in weak gang. Bad news for you. You will suck no matter combat system. Dedicated PvP groups of skilled players with finely tuned powerbuilds and top stuff will own you anyway.

[avv]

Yep. Aiming takes time but it is nothing like given countdown. You aim and pull the trigger and shot is delivered instantly.

But in reality this time it takes to turn and aim is matter of life and death. Pretty important don't you think?

Yep turning 180 degrees in real life with light machinegun (7kg) in hands and tactical west full of gear took me about half a second. Minigun weghts 14+- kgs and with straps it is reasonable weigth.

Try to shoot accurately to 300 metres after turning 180 instantly.

Advantage of looking right way before enemies approach is evident. You just can see them due to FOW. (Which is great feature IMO)

It's not that great that we can see behind us. Takes away some strategic possibilities like flanking inside buildings. Many times noticed this in Hinkley. It doesn't matter if you appear behind your enemy, or in front of him, hes gonna see you anyway. It's actually smarter to come from the front because then you can get eyeshots landed. In addition due to 360 degree field of view, you can't trick your enemy into looking certain direction and then appearing from elsewhere.

Actually I am more of strategy game and RPG player which sucks in FPS. ;-) I dont know how much do you involve in big organised fights like TC but there are really ways how to outsmart more powerfull enemy. Those fights start to look more like RTS which i really like.

You must be right, but we're talking about combat in micro level. How players lay their strategy is matter of macro features.

Flanking is really useful strategy now.

Except indoors.

That is happening. Good snipers with some PvP experience really holds all the time on max range from enemy and snipe from afar and big gunners are running through narrow streets to get to range.

That's because they are most powerful like that. But it doesn't mean that sniper's shots would be any less deadly in close range. But what are the smg, pistol and shotgunners doing? They don't have a suitable role. Minigun simply overpowers all burst weapons in close range, sniper dominates everything beyond that.

Well some actions filmed by rogues or chosens really look as nice as swat actions from movies. xD

Except that they are storming houses with machineguns.

I will insult you who are for this suggestion but i thik that most of the suggestions for changing combat system are from Fallout singleplayers who want to own players in TB as they did in Fallout with npcs but have no good powerbuild, no will to make him, low PvP experience, low stuff and are in weak gang. Bad news for you. You will suck no matter combat system. Dedicated PvP groups of skilled players with finely tuned powerbuilds and top stuff will own you anyway.

This is not about our motives or backgrounds, it's about reasons and facts.

[LagMaster]

this sugestion is half this sugestion

[kttdestroyer]

Yep. Aiming takes time but it is nothing like given countdown. You aim and pull the trigger and shot is delivered instantly.

The idea is one thing, the balance of it is another. The idea is the reason and goal. The reason is becouse the combat is a bit too simple in my opinion, and reason is becouse i would like it to be more braincell demanding. Yes, you aim, exacly. It is not point to make a sniper shot one shot after 7 seconds. The main point is, to make a diffrence between diffrent classes, to balance them out, how much time it takes to fire, thats the details and would have to be tested, i would start the tests for most AP consuming shot in game, and would set it at 2-3 seconds, depending how it works, correcting it.

Yep turning 180 degrees in real life with light machinegun (7kg) in hands and tactical west full of gear took me about half a second. Minigun weghts 14+- kgs and with straps it is reasonable weigth.
Advantage of looking right way before enemies approach is evident. You just can see them due to FOW. (Which is great feature IMO)

Here you go, you start to understand, half a second Impressive.
Yes, Fov is a great feature, and i believe it is something to build on.

True true. But what is the aiming you are doing yourself by clicking on enemy? Isnt it that?

Mate, that is not aiming... You are not aiming... This is not Shot-em-up. What you do is that you tell your character to perfome an attacking action, which consist of aiming (chance to hit) and shoting (damage).

Actually I am more of strategy game and RPG player which sucks in FPS. ;-) I dont know how much do you involve in big organised fights like TC but there are really ways how to outsmart more powerfull enemy. Those fights start to look more like RTS which i really like. Flanking is really useful strategy now.

Minimally, and in the end, critticals still decide the final outcome. If this is what you like, the strategy in all this, then i do believe you dont understand the idea simply, or cannot imagine how it would work.

That is happening. Good snipers with some PvP experience really holds all the time on max range from enemy and snipe from afar and big gunners are running through narrow streets to get to range.

A bit it does, but it is not enough for my taste. There are possibilities of improvement still.

Well some actions filmed by rogues or chosens really look as nice as swat actions from movies. xD

Awesome.

I will insult you who are for this suggestion but i thik that most of the suggestions for changing combat system are from Fallout singleplayers who want to own players in TB as they did in Fallout with npcs but have no good powerbuild, no will to make him, low PvP experience, low stuff and are in weak gang. Bad news for you. You will suck no matter combat system. Dedicated PvP groups of skilled players with finely tuned powerbuilds and top stuff will own you anyway.

I bet i have TC more then you ever will
Meet me in Hinkley sometimes if you got the guts, Name: Eraser.

[OskaRus]

That sounds more reasonable. 2-3 secs for one sniper I can imagine to work bud hardly. other snipers would just run away. Imagine like you are lying down with rifle and waiting for enemy to pop out from trench is far different situation than watching the building if there would apear someone in window.

Combat surely could get some more options to fight and more tactical options even for one character than burst and shot in the eye and maybe sometimes nade or rocket. But they are discussed elsewhere. Like mines, forced fire, etc....

Which i still dont get is how this change would improve gameplay. Try explaining some new tactical options and we might discuss if there is more gain than loss if this would be implemented. I have never seen combat system like this in any game, if there is post a link.

[kttdestroyer]

That sounds more reasonable. 2-3 secs for one sniper I can imagine to work bud hardly. other snipers would just run away. Imagine like you are lying down with rifle and waiting for enemy to pop out from trench is far different situation than watching the building if there would apear someone in window.

Combat surely could get some more options to fight and more tactical options even for one character than burst and shot in the eye and maybe sometimes nade or rocket. But they are discussed elsewhere. Like mines, forced fire, etc....

Which i still dont get is how this change would improve gameplay. Try explaining some new tactical options and we might discuss if there is more gain than loss if this would be implemented. I have never seen combat system like this in any game, if there is post a link.

Some things might follow, we must remember a lot of things currently are adjusted around current system.

The thing you talk about sniper aiming at specific position is present in game called Jagged Alliance 2, which was one of more tactical games out there. Dont know how hard it would be to implement, but lets say that if you left clicked on empty hex (or maybe holding some button or simply a keyboard button activating this, diffrent ways to do this) your character would start aiming at this hex, if enemy walks into exacly this square, then your characters shot takes 50% less time or more. Firing time gives a lot options to build on.

With implemention of firing time, i think FOV could be extended, at least infront of character. Snipers maybe even get bonus in view hexes forward but penalty backwords when looking though scope (when sniper rifle in hand, or hunting rifle). But this on the side topic i guess.

I bet you have played such games, like i mentioned in other thread, even Fallout Tactics had something like this (Knifes faster then pistols, pistols faster then rifles). Even Wow has this, not all spells are cast instantly. To be honest, i dont know a game with fire arms where all diffrent guns fire instantly, all at the same speed... It is just natural, if you want to have balance between classes, you have to balance the DPS each character can deliver, there is no DPS when all weapons fire instantly (not that i would like to implement some kind of stat called DPS, its just good way to see how balanced the game is). When you meet a minigunner with a P90 it often ends in one burst agains one burst, then the minigunner hides, and DPS looses its point. Even though i did, you dont really have to compare to other games, just need to compare with nature, how things work in reallity, becouse, what fallout is, is a SCI-FI view on reality, it is based on same rules (at least much enough for us to believe in it). Characters are not walking upside down (most of the time), they have arms to hold weapons, and they have eyes which they use to see, and all of the sudden, they can do somethings that break this whole realistic logic. Its like AVV said, its about reasons and facts, its just natural simply, to have a minigunner turn slower then a pistol/smg user who only have to turn his arm where big gunner has to turn whole torso. That when sniper aims for eye, he takes his time to prepare his shot before firing.

How would this influence the gameplay? I believe it would put diffrent "classes" we got into their defined role a bit more then now. Sniper would be best suited for long shots while hidden, he would not be same good indoors unless he changes to pistol, and he would be best against static targets (makes sense, no?). Minigunners would be weaker indoors becouse their turning speed and firing time, especially when meeting SMGers or Pistolers, melee characters. They would be strong when holding/defending a tactical position especially outdoor. What it would simply do, is that it would encourage tactical usege of classes, it pushes the level of tactical possiblities, opens some weak spots in builds. In my opinion, making it whole a lot more intresting and each battle would be more diffrent then currently.

[OskaRus]

Dis would need a HUUUUUUUUUGE engine change which 2238 devs will not do and nether do Cvet. Weapon speeds in FOT were almost instant. actions taking about half a sec or st.. Which is no different to me from instant. Actions taking a second or more would be just impossible to do in combat due to constant motion of enemies. Current system is far more similar to FOT system than the one suggested.

Turning speed is interresting but not involved in this suggestion topic. That might actually bring more SMGers to fight.

But this system would make sniping on max range impossible task, thus eliminating snipers from game. (other snipers would just evade shots and BGers could be able to run in range burst and run away before sniper can shot) I still cant see how it could work and be significantly different.

[avv]

Dis would need a HUUUUUUUUUGE engine change which 2238 devs will not do and nether do Cvet. Weapon speeds in FOT were almost instant. actions taking about half a sec or st.. Which is no different to me from instant. Actions taking a second or more would be just impossible to do in combat due to constant motion of enemies. Current system is far more similar to FOT system than the one suggested.

Huge and huge, it's hard to say.

They didn't have to think of the attack animations that much in FOtactics singleplayer because for example big guns were simply upgrades to small guns and energy weapons followed. The weapons became stronger because the enemies became stronger too: humans -> mutants -> robots. Small guns simply became mostly useless at some point so there was no need to balance pistols, shotguns and assault rifles because the player was encouraged to arm his men with big guns and later with energy.

But this system would make sniping on max range impossible task, thus eliminating snipers from game. (other snipers would just evade shots and BGers could be able to run in range burst and run away before sniper can shot) I still cant see how it could work and be significantly different.

Snipers would be taking shots at people who were uh... "gunporting" some direction. Big gunners wouldn't be running and shooting anywhere because running, stopping, turning and aiming would take more time than for the stationary sniper to shoot at the charging big gunner.

To add something more:
Players could be able to reflex shot by only turning but not spending aps on aiming. Then they'd get accuracy penalty but the shot would be delivered quickly from the hip. Useful in close combat but not in range.

[kttdestroyer]

I mean, the goal, gangs craft loot gather whole days, then they go to battle and the fights often last only for few seconds. The best fights i have been in were the ones that lasted for longest. I say, why not change this around a bit, gather less time and fight more time. With Firing time i think such things as retreating, flanking, regrouping or holding a position would be a lot more possible, more time to think about the next more, more interaction between two fighting sides. Could lead into a chess kind of match even.

Dis would need a HUUUUUUUUUGE engine change which 2238 devs will not do and nether do Cvet.

I am not sure it would be such huge change. I bet there are animation frames which just could be paused or slowed down (When char points his gun, then pause "aiming", then animation continues and characters shots).

Weapon speeds in FOT were almost instant. actions taking about half a sec or st.. Which is no different to me from instant. Actions taking a second or more would be just impossible to do in combat due to constant motion of enemies. Current system is far more similar to FOT system than the one suggested.

In mulitplayer, the defending player always got the first shot becouse he shot as soon as he saw the enemy, attacking enemy couldint just run forward and insta shot becouse he would get shot first. At least in the demo multiplayer where lower tier weapons were used, and becouse this 1 second firing time for rifle, a knife char could stab pretty hard (3 times in time of one shot from rifle). But yes, like AVV says, that game was made for Singleplayer, the multiplayer failed drastically in full version when all weapons become avalible in my opinion. Demo was a lot more tactical becouse of this (if i remember correctly, only pistol, shotgun, SMG, knife and hunting rifle was avalible, and leather armor). But yeah, maybe it wasint the best example. The only working one was the knife vs rifle in this game, everything else was just unbalanced.

But this system would make sniping on max range impossible task, thus eliminating snipers from game. (other snipers would just evade shots and BGers could be able to run in range burst and run away before sniper can shot) I still cant see how it could work and be significantly different.

Remember that all guns would get firing time, BG too. If BGs would run towards a sniper the sniper will get his shot before the BG, he would definetly not be able to run shot and run away before sniper get his shot and that is the whole point, becouse BGs would not be fast either. An SMG might be able to pull that off, but what would be the problem would be range so if sniper would keep fair distance the smger wouldint be able to pull that off either. So, IF the sniper would be spotted, then yes, it would be difficult for him, thats why the scope field of view extend that could follow (Sniper rifle and Hunting Scope could get a FOV boost forward and penalty back), then he could stay out of range of vision from the BGers for exemple, and they would never know what hit them (if they stand in the middle of a town without having proper scout around the area, you see it opens new level of possiblities all over the place, puts more pressure on those things). I wouldint say it would be impossible to snipe, not at all, just that the sniper would have to think more about his position, when to shot, when to wait to make him most effective, tactics.

Players could be able to reflex shot by only turning but not spending aps on aiming. Then they'd get accuracy penalty but the shot would be delivered quickly from the hip. Useful in close combat but not in range.

I think that is single shots which are not used at all? Currently they have no porpose in pvp. As they allready are less AP consuming then aimed/burst shots, they could even get a shorter firing time (as a specific bonus for this kind of shot, becouse of low amount of treat it represents). Then they might become finally usefull!

[avv]

I think that is single shots which are not used at all? Currently they have no porpose in pvp. As they allready are less AP consuming then aimed/burst shots, they could even get a shorter firing time (as a specific bonus for this kind of shot, becouse of low amount of treat it represents). Then they might become finally usefull!

You're right. Single shots with automatic weapons like smgs and assault rifles should cost significantly less aps. Single unaimed shots with weapons like shotguns and heavy calibre pistols would be slower but pack more punch.