Other > Suggestions
Battle system suggestion.
OskaRus:
Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot. AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot. Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.
I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower. If i would want to fight with the enemy for minutes I would play WoW. And even there blows are delivered instantly.
Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)
But I agree that having only one combat system would game cleaner more predictable and maybe easier to maintain for Devs.
avv:
--- Quote from: OskaRus on November 03, 2010, 04:20:46 PM ---Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot.
--- End quote ---
Yes there is. You have to notice the enemy, turn yourself and your gun towards him, put him in the sights and pull the trigger. It takes time and is incredibly important element in combat, especially in close quarters situations. That's why in close quarters combat submachine guns, pistols and shotguns are more favoured, because they can be turned fast and aimed quickly. It might be just 0,3 seconds faster but that advantage can save your life. Ever seen swat storming houses with snipers and heavymachine guns?
--- Quote ---AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot.
--- End quote ---
But if there's no need to shoot again or take any cover after taking the shot what's he regaining action points then for? Besides what cover? It doesn't matter at all if I got full aps or not, there's no cover benefit from them.
If the re-targetting takes for example 5 seconds, how can we target someone instantly at first shot but after that we have to spend time targetting again? I mean at the first shot the enemy might had appeared from no-where and somehow we managed to target him as fast as we click, but the second targetting takes time. Doesn't make any sense.
Or are we perhaps recovering from the recoil?
--- Quote ---Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.
--- End quote ---
But what do we need weapon skills for if you think that we're supposed to target our enemies with reflexes and finesse with mousehand?
Besides, reflexes are related to first person shooters. Don't really know what fonline is supposed to be but for sure it aint first person shooter. There is even reflex-based stat in fallout, it's called sequence but it has no use in real time.
The true reason to the state of targetting and ap spending in real time is that our devs simply haven't done anything about it. In fallout singleplayers devs didn't have to think of this because combat was pure turn based, no reflexes needed there. They didn't have to think of delays before aiming because everyone had their own turn. They didn't have to think about damage per second because nobody regenerated aps in real time.
However these delays are included in the action point costs. It takes more ap to aim and turn a sniper than it takes to do the same with 14mm pistol, that's because sniper is long and heavier weapon. It takes long to shoot a minigun because it is heavy weapon and doesn't turn 90 degrees instantly.
--- Quote ---I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower.
--- End quote ---
Depends on how it was implemented. As a raw, it wouldn't be much better. But it has better basis than current instashot system. For example if we had to spend 2 aps to turn a gun and 2 aps to aim it, these actions could be prepared before you meet the enemy. If you knew an enemy will appear behind a corner you could turn into that direction and start aiming at the spot you expect him to arrive, thus winning 4 ap lead in combat. This is called strategy and it would offer vast possibilities and options in combat. In addition when combat is slower, theres more time for teamwork because you can predict your teammates actions and react to what happens to them. You could even chat with them because fast reflexes wouldn't be so necessary.
--- Quote ---Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)
--- End quote ---
But wouldn't this slower the combat since it took more time to kill people? Besides, it's good that weapons are deadly. We just need more strategic options to have a chance to avoid getting hit. Wearing the best armor isn't a strategic option, it's self-evidence.
kttdestroyer:
--- Quote from: OskaRus on November 03, 2010, 04:20:46 PM ---Omg. What should be this? Where have u seen soldiers spott enemy and wait 5 secs before pulling the trigger? In no game or real situation is there waiting time before shot. AP regen as i understand it is simulation of taking cover or retargeting after the shot. Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is. And targetting takes the time simillar to time targeting enemy with your mouse.
I dont see any fun, ballance or added value of making RT combat slower. If i would want to fight with the enemy for minutes I would play WoW. And even there blows are delivered instantly.
Smarter way of slowing combat would be nerfing guns, buffing armors and buffing player HPs. Not waiting some seconds before shot. (I would be even against this.)
But I agree that having only one combat system would game cleaner more predictable and maybe easier to maintain for Devs.
--- End quote ---
Bullshit. Where do you see sniper shoting instantly aiming to the eyes? You see no diffrence between aiming and just pulling the trigger? In real life? Using a scope? If your real life view is based on hollywood movies then... Although even those tend to be closer to reality.
Where do you see people with miniguns turning 180 degrees and shooting in a instant? Have you even tried to turn around 180 degrees in real life? Makes one wonder... Becouse it doesint really happen instantly... Now imagine that with a 50 kg weapon (probobly a lot more heavy?).
"Shot must be delivered instantly on your mark as pulling the trigger really is"
It really isint. At least as long as a burst is not one big flying bullet. And word "aim" means, that you try to shot a specific spot, just shooting is not equal to aiming. ;)
"buffing armors and buffing player HPs"
Yes, its allready great fun to stand infront of eachother with 240+ hp chars and shot, its like playing cards, hoping next card will be a joker. You can watch a movie while doing this, becouse it is not really "happening" much in those situations. There is not many; "Hey, lets do like this", becouse there is little diffrence, two groups will still meet, and if you flank your enemy, the only bonus you will get is first shot, which is nothing much of advantage practically, becouse it often is easly overpowered by luck roll after it.
From what i understand, you are a fan of shot-em-ups, which would make sense. My personal view on this, is quite diffrent then yours, becouse i would like something more then just pull the trigger. I would like to think when i play, not only hope for a crittical, i would like to have ability to overpower enemies critticals by using my braincells. I would like the current weapon classes to have their true porpose. Snipers staying far away and acually act as snipers, bursters sneaking and flanking. Well, whatever, lets just change name of the game to "Fonline: Counter-strike gone Isometric". ::)
--- Quote from: avv on November 03, 2010, 05:12:16 PM ---Ever seen swat storming houses with snipers and heavymachine guns?
--- End quote ---
I guess the SWAT members have not played Fonline? ;D
OskaRus:
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---Bullshit. Where do you see sniper shoting instantly aiming to the eyes? You see no diffrence between aiming and just pulling the trigger? In real life? Using a scope? If your real life view is based on hollywood movies then... Although even those tend to be closer to reality.
--- End quote ---
Yep. Aiming takes time but it is nothing like given countdown. You aim and pull the trigger and shot is delivered instantly.
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---Where do you see people with miniguns turning 180 degrees and shooting in a instant? Have you even tried to turn around 180 degrees in real life? Makes one wonder... Becouse it doesint really happen instantly... Now imagine that with a 50 kg weapon (probobly a lot more heavy?).
--- End quote ---
Yep turning 180 degrees in real life with light machinegun (7kg) in hands and tactical west full of gear took me about half a second. Minigun weghts 14+- kgs and with straps it is reasonable weigth.
Advantage of looking right way before enemies approach is evident. You just can see them due to FOW. (Which is great feature IMO)
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---just shooting is not equal to aiming. ;)
--- End quote ---
True true. But what is the aiming you are doing yourself by clicking on enemy? Isnt it that?
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---From what i understand, you are a fan of shot-em-ups, which would make sense. My personal view on this, is quite diffrent then yours, becouse i would like something more then just pull the trigger. I would like to think when i play, not only hope for a crittical, i would like to have ability to overpower enemies critticals by using my braincells.
--- End quote ---
Actually I am more of strategy game and RPG player which sucks in FPS. ;-) I dont know how much do you involve in big organised fights like TC but there are really ways how to outsmart more powerfull enemy. Those fights start to look more like RTS which i really like. Flanking is really useful strategy now.
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---I would like the current weapon classes to have their true porpose. Snipers staying far away and acually act as snipers, bursters sneaking and flanking.
--- End quote ---
That is happening. Good snipers with some PvP experience really holds all the time on max range from enemy and snipe from afar and big gunners are running through narrow streets to get to range.
--- Quote from: kttdestroyer on November 03, 2010, 05:12:26 PM ---Well, whatever, lets just change name of the game to "Fonline: Counter-strike gone Isometric". ::)
I guess the SWAT members have not played Fonline? ;D
--- End quote ---
Well some actions filmed by rogues or chosens really look as nice as swat actions from movies. xD
I will insult you who are for this suggestion but i thik that most of the suggestions for changing combat system are from Fallout singleplayers who want to own players in TB as they did in Fallout with npcs but have no good powerbuild, no will to make him, low PvP experience, low stuff and are in weak gang. Bad news for you. You will suck no matter combat system. Dedicated PvP groups of skilled players with finely tuned powerbuilds and top stuff will own you anyway.
avv:
--- Quote from: OskaRus on November 03, 2010, 05:48:12 PM ---Yep. Aiming takes time but it is nothing like given countdown. You aim and pull the trigger and shot is delivered instantly.
--- End quote ---
But in reality this time it takes to turn and aim is matter of life and death. Pretty important don't you think?
--- Quote ---Yep turning 180 degrees in real life with light machinegun (7kg) in hands and tactical west full of gear took me about half a second. Minigun weghts 14+- kgs and with straps it is reasonable weigth.
--- End quote ---
Try to shoot accurately to 300 metres after turning 180 instantly.
--- Quote ---Advantage of looking right way before enemies approach is evident. You just can see them due to FOW. (Which is great feature IMO)
--- End quote ---
It's not that great that we can see behind us. Takes away some strategic possibilities like flanking inside buildings. Many times noticed this in Hinkley. It doesn't matter if you appear behind your enemy, or in front of him, hes gonna see you anyway. It's actually smarter to come from the front because then you can get eyeshots landed. In addition due to 360 degree field of view, you can't trick your enemy into looking certain direction and then appearing from elsewhere.
--- Quote ---Actually I am more of strategy game and RPG player which sucks in FPS. ;-) I dont know how much do you involve in big organised fights like TC but there are really ways how to outsmart more powerfull enemy. Those fights start to look more like RTS which i really like.
--- End quote ---
You must be right, but we're talking about combat in micro level. How players lay their strategy is matter of macro features.
--- Quote ---Flanking is really useful strategy now.
--- End quote ---
Except indoors.
--- Quote ---That is happening. Good snipers with some PvP experience really holds all the time on max range from enemy and snipe from afar and big gunners are running through narrow streets to get to range.
--- End quote ---
That's because they are most powerful like that. But it doesn't mean that sniper's shots would be any less deadly in close range. But what are the smg, pistol and shotgunners doing? They don't have a suitable role. Minigun simply overpowers all burst weapons in close range, sniper dominates everything beyond that.
--- Quote ---Well some actions filmed by rogues or chosens really look as nice as swat actions from movies. xD
--- End quote ---
Except that they are storming houses with machineguns.
--- Quote ---I will insult you who are for this suggestion but i thik that most of the suggestions for changing combat system are from Fallout singleplayers who want to own players in TB as they did in Fallout with npcs but have no good powerbuild, no will to make him, low PvP experience, low stuff and are in weak gang. Bad news for you. You will suck no matter combat system. Dedicated PvP groups of skilled players with finely tuned powerbuilds and top stuff will own you anyway.
--- End quote ---
This is not about our motives or backgrounds, it's about reasons and facts.
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