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Author Topic: Perks and Traits balance/rework  (Read 7264 times)

Michaelh139

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 07:03:54 pm »

is hth evade still broken?
I... pretty sure it is.
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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 11:26:33 pm »

I think this is probably the way to to go. There will be other perks to get more AC too, so for someone trying to be hard to hit, Kamikaze would be their trait.

I frequently take Kamikaze because the +5 sequence helps me move first in TB.

Usually this just means I get a head start in encounters. I'm usually mining or carrying craft items to traders, so this helps cut losses. It also works great in combination with Cautious Nature and cigarettes.

Quote from: RavenWolf
The 0 Ac has almost no impact in late game, and sequence works only in TB.
So what?
By late game, many things useful earlier are canceled out.

Some have argued that they want leather armor to still be viable in high level combat.
It is in a way: it protects against some lower level annoyance (saving HP for the main fights), can provide some minor protection otherwise, and most importantly is no great loss if you die and get looted.
And it looks good. IIRC it has a lower stealth penalty, too. (Than heavier armor.)

For RT players Kamikaze is useless, so a more FoT style implementation would be appropriate for them.
The problem here is that extra damage with AC penalty comes out as only a bonus in high level combat, since the AC loss is meaningless at that point. (And it is a really good bonus, not something I can just say "so what?" to.)

The suggestion of higher AC for Kamikaze has some merit in that it supports both rushing and running away by running like a crazy person. However, the description reports "ignores threats".
This would indicate rapid firing and/or rapid closing with the enemy at the expense of defense.
In TB this can be approximated by the sequence bonus/AC loss combination.
In RT, this would be require a speed increase.

So what we need is a case switch: TB = regular Kamikaze, RT = 10% movement increase. (maybe 1% per point of sequence, or average this number with 10% so it can't be too powerful. PE 10, kamikaze, 3 levels of earlier Sequence = 31 sequence. But given that it would take 3 perks to do this, maybe not so bad. No, gotta average it with 10%.)
Also, in RT the +5 Sequence from Kamikaze would not be added, so it would be 26 averaged with 10 for 18% with maxed PE. But then it is also silly, as PE should not make you move faster. Back to a flat 10%.
This 10% should only apply in combat.

Of course, there is still the "late game" issue: the AC loss is negated by enemy super-skill, but faster movement is still useful, making the trait only a bonus.
Again, so what? The negation is not player-side but opponent side: their massive skill investment nullifes the AC tradeoff.

Also: Bonus Move should give a 20% speed increase per level in RT and maybe even not in combat.
Action Boy should have a 3rd level, like on FO.

Flower Child perk should be brought back.

Adrenaline Rush is nonsense.
Make it increase DR by 10% and DT by 1 per wound-stage. (wounded, severely wounded, almost dead.)

Quick Pockets should also make reload be 1 AP, except with Fast Loader gun, which would be 0. (But you still have to click reload.) It's a revolver, so there are realism problems here.




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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 01:27:34 pm »

Kamikaze trait - after your HPs falls to 50% of max you get +30% DR (maybe 25%), PE is decreased to 1 and you can't do aimed shot from pistols and rifles (to avoid overpowered plasmas and snipers). Maybe we will see crazy HtH and melee builds in action  :D
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avv

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 01:36:50 pm »

Well, the obvious option would be HtH guys. With every "dodging" perk they'd be very hard to hit ;)

Hard to hit with low weapon skill. People who want to fight raise their gunskills so high that 95% is guaranteed. So having passive high ac only means that some people will never hit you but others will without any problem due to the nature of skills & hit chance.

But otherwise having either dodger or tanker as defensive measures sound reasonable.
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Solar

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 01:41:43 pm »

That depends rather on how much AC you get ;)

I look at it more as making you seem more hexes away than you are. For example the current +5AC from dodger is the same as being 1 1/4 Hexes futher away than you really are.

I expect that after the changes you will be capable of significantly more than that effect, given appropriate invesment into it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 08:48:37 pm by Solar »
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avv

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 02:03:50 pm »

That depends rather on how much AC you get ;)

I look at it more as making you seem more hexes away than you are. For example the current +5AC from dodger is the same as being 2 1/2 Hexes futher away than you really are.

I expect that after the changes you will be capable of significantly more than that effect, given appropriate invesment into it.

Still countered with >200 weapon skill. Which in advance encourages alts even more due to high skill investments. It's obvious that once people notice that there's some ac builds running around, they start upping their weapon skill% even higher.

Why not have a ac ceiling of about 30 - 45 and ac would work so that if someone has 10 ac, you can never hit him better than 85% (95 - 10). This way it would only work against those who decide to raise their weapon skills very high. If someone had 56% tohit, the 10 ac wouldn't affect it at all.
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Lordus

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 02:56:11 pm »

Still countered with >200 weapon skill. Which in advance encourages alts even more due to high skill investments. It's obvious that once people notice that there's some ac builds running around, they start upping their weapon skill% even higher.

 I disagree, there is not a lot of SPECIAL/skill point to invest even if you have drug char. Defensive potential of high AC builds would be only on long ranges, low range builds (de facto burst build) will (i think) take toughness perks..

 Example: sg sniper at range 50, pe 10 and sharpshooter needs cca 222 skill points in SG skill. In current sniper x sniper is your defense agaist other snipers based on your luck => cripple/instakill ability. If you will invest your traits/perks/armor into the raising AC ability, you could create Anti-sniper long range build, that would dominate against basic snipers, but will be very vulnerable on short range because of absence of burst - defense abilities (DR/DT).

 I hope this will be the way, new possible build, not superhero, new purpose for leather armors and for abandoned perks/trait.
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avv

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 03:10:16 pm »

I disagree, there is not a lot of SPECIAL/skill point to invest even if you have drug char. Defensive potential of high AC builds would be only on long ranges, low range builds (de facto burst build) will (i think) take toughness perks..

 Example: sg sniper at range 50, pe 10 and sharpshooter needs cca 222 skill points in SG skill. In current sniper x sniper is your defense agaist other snipers based on your luck => cripple/instakill ability. If you will invest your traits/perks/armor into the raising AC ability, you could create Anti-sniper long range build, that would dominate against basic snipers, but will be very vulnerable on short range because of absence of burst - defense abilities (DR/DT).

 I hope this will be the way, new possible build, not superhero, new purpose for leather armors and for abandoned perks/trait.

Honestly I didn't quite get it what you disagreed against. What you wrote about new build made sense but it didn't seem to be against anything I said.

My point was that if builds with high ac started to appear, people would be tempted to move even the last bits of available skillpoints in weapon skill to be able to hit with maximum potential. This means less skillpoints - if any - are available to crafting and utility thus encouraging alting. 
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Lordus

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 03:22:37 pm »

Honestly I didn't quite get it what you disagreed against. What you wrote about new build made sense but it didn't seem to be against anything I said.

My point was that if builds with high ac started to appear, people would be tempted to move even the last bits of available skillpoints in weapon skill to be able to hit with maximum potential. This means less skillpoints - if any - are available to crafting and utility thus encouraging alting. 

 Well, i have different point of view on Fonline because of existence in PvP gang, so alting is regular part of my gameplay (but i try to minimize my alts numbers and because of mates and their crafters, it is possible).

 Current powerbuild creating: 0. (choose gameplay) => 1. choose weapon => 2. create build that could maximize benefit of that weapon.

 Because we know principles, most equations, resistance ... all of pvp gangs had reached best possible powerbuilds even after huge drug change since last wipe. And there is not many free skill points you have to invest, if you want to raise chance to hit possibility, if you have sniper build with 10 luck, you are not able to raise it above 240 if you still want at least one secondary skill leveled to usable level (doctor on level 100).

 So i think that there will not be masive rage quit to high INT => bigger weapon skill. It will be only way for part of current pvp players, but not all, but it would bring fresh pvp possible build.
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avv

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 03:34:24 pm »

Well, i have different point of view on Fonline because of existence in PvP gang, so alting is regular part of my gameplay

I know, can't blame you or anyone else from how the game encourages us to play at the moment.

But when it comes to designing new features, it has to be taken into account whether we design features for current alt-dominated system or are we going to design them to not to support alts. Devs have already agreed that alts cause problems and shouldn't be encouraged so it's better to start developing features that no longer support them. 
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Lordus

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 03:59:36 pm »

I know, can't blame you or anyone else from how the game encourages us to play at the moment.

But when it comes to designing new features, it has to be taken into account whether we design features for current alt-dominated system or are we going to design them to not to support alts. Devs have already agreed that alts cause problems and shouldn't be encouraged so it's better to start developing features that no longer support them. 

 I think that non alt fonline is utopy. In PvP with no discussion. Good pvp player needs 2 pvp chars (long and short range), support chars for at least guns/ammo/trader for each build and he needs shared drug/armor char or at least friend+crafter with free time.

 This trait would affect mostly PvP, but even nonPvP chars could benefit from this change. So i see no problem for this. If you build has bigger perception, so you preffer active defense (seek and run away :) ), your high AC build would help you.
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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 05:46:26 pm »

Good Natured -5 damage per attack, 5 extra skillpoints per level
Night Person 20% bonus to sneak at night, -1pe during the day
Kamikaze AC reduced to 0, damage increased by 15%
Sex Appeal  -2cha for same gender, +2cha for opposite on npc checks
So players could make a woman character with 1 ch and sex appeal and be able to trade with sha enin and buster :) sick idea!
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Wichura

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 06:51:02 pm »

Yeah, like talking to just two vendors, surrounded by thieves, bombers and SMG bursters, would require separated alt.

Or maybe? :>
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Solar

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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 08:46:44 pm »

Quote
I hope this will be the way, new possible build, not superhero, new purpose for leather armors and for abandoned perks/trait.

Yes, this is the idea.

Different perk "branches". Ie Tank, Anti Crit, Dodger, Burst, Sniper, HtH, Sneak, Medic with around 4 levels each. Specialise in one or two or mix and match between them.

Then the traits affect the way you play, some classes require less "damage" perks and so can be heavier on the durable/sneak/medic skills.

Then mix in drugs for more character types.


Then the alternative system to allow a PvP build to actually have some ability in other areas, to cut down the need for alts (or actually to allow the character types which are now Alts to be power build level themselves)

Should allow for more options anyway.


Also, points for anyone who spotted my "deliberate" mistake! Dodger is equal to 1.25 hexes extra.
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Re: Perks and Traits balance/rework
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 08:56:50 pm »

Yes, this is the idea.
Different perk "branches". Ie Tank, Anti Crit, Dodger, Burst, Sniper, HtH, Sneak, Medic with around 4 levels each. Specialise in one or two or mix and match between them.
I hope you are not being serious and this is sarcasm or what.

That would totally destroy the character building. Choosing perks well is so tricky and makes people use their brains, and allows to give more possibilities.
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