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[Solar]

Even on a metal armor JHP suck hard. Believe me, if your ennemy have better than a leather jacket, take AP ammo.

The cross over generally happens at Metal Armour. Meaning that JHP and AP are just as good as each other at Metal, JHP better before that, AP better after that.

I'm not sure about your formula Midnight, but what Drakonis said about results is true. You want to hurt an armored target with a Minigun, you hose him with AP, end of story. JHP is going to work too against stuff like Metal Armor mk2 without psycho, but in the end you're going to have AP being slightly more effective on this level and really making the difference against better protection. Since I don't think there's some voodoo magic going on it must be the fact that something's wrong about the formula or you're not taking something into account. I mean I've shot PLENTY of people with .223, 5mm JHP and 5mm AP with a top tier big gun (LSW, Avenger) and I will easily choose AP loaded Avenger for PvP any day of the week - it simply works against lightly armored targets and works best out of the three against guys in Metal and better.

I've not checked what his equations are, but I guess he's probably not taken DT/5 for AP ammo into account - that is why Miniguns are much better vs the higher armours when armed with AP ammo.

Strangely though you will probably get the ultra high results against these high types of armour using JHP (when you get a critical burst) - this confuses people when they do their tests, which is quite funny


As for SMGs vs AR. SMGs are fine, AR are pretty weak. Been said a lot of times that AR need boosting.

[Midnight]

The formula has been fixed with what said Atom and its results are probables right know, don't know if they are completly right cause of rounding mainly but it should not be far away from reality.

If you have JHP and APs that should cross around Metal armor, that mean around, and when you have P90 and 10mm SMG using the same ammos, sure they can't cross both on metal armor cause damages are so differents. For why the sim give a cross with P90 on CA MKII but stats for normal damages between Metal and Ca are not that far away from each other, where it change really when you have toughness.

Bonus ranged damages change the cross point too, and finesse and ...

[Solar]

I think most JHP/AP guns are crossing over at the correct points now. The change a few months to 5mm AP was to get this cross over happening in the correct place ... as well as to nerf miniguns on CA+

[Midnight]

So stats on P90 are wrong? If you can give me what they should be i'll fix them but right know i use the formula given in first post with fix given by Atom about AP ammos and DT.

[Solar]

Hm, no, I'd changed 10mm AP damage mod to 0.9 from 0.75 on my spreadsheet, but this hasn't been done - so 10mm JHP is infact still better vs most things which aren't CA

[Glave]

I think most JHP/AP guns are crossing over at the correct points now. The change a few months to 5mm AP was to get this cross over happening in the correct place ... as well as to nerf miniguns on CA+

I agree here that ammo is balanced correctly, but there's still a problem with most small guns, such as the AR, FN FAL - they lack the penetration to do anything against geared enemies.

[Midnight]

Ok good thing to know, solar if you need to make test you can take the sim (if it's accurate) you can simply change ammos stats or weapon stats by editing source (with opera you can do that on the fly) they are stored in an array and i commented it in English not French so that it can be of use for everybody.

[Solar]

I've got my big spreadsheet of doom where I've got what every weapon does in 10 AP vs every armour - Although I changed around a lot of stuff to what I think is balanced, but forgot to lobby Atom about it before the last wipe.

[Midnight]

With 10mm AP at 0.90 and not 0.75 P90c will become insane, i will not complain since it's what i plan to use, but it will be really more dangerous than a FN HFPA.

And what i said a bit above with Assault Rifle against 10mm SMG will be worst, since AR is already weaker :/

[Solar]

That presumes FN FAL HPFA and AR wouldn't change too.

[Midnight]

Yeah but with what you said earlier, tweak 7.62 ammos to make FN FALs better, that mean you should put 7.62 at same level or higher than .223 to be really usefull, and in this case you have big guns that will be impacted.
Not sure you'll have fun with all this, since M60 is actually weak, but if it become a second LSW, that won't do it, or there will be many raiders ingame (or alts and this would be really poor :/)
So i wait to see the changes but here i don't think it will be easy, since balancing AR seems not that hard cause ammos have been balanced some time ago, for the others it will probably be a pain with lot of whining.

[Solar]

There will be whinning no matter what, so its not really a concearn

[Midnight]

I ve seen recently something a bit weird, the mauser require a guns and bullet book to craft, while the 10mm don't.

Since mauser is the ultimate crappy weapon of the game and only usefull to perfect noobs, require a book costing 5x the price of the gun seem a bit weird to me, is it a mistake or there is an hidden reason?

[Solar]

Hm, I fixed this once before, seems its back. Will be fixed again on next update