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Author Topic: Smallgun balance and ammo types  (Read 10488 times)

Nice_Boat

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2010, 03:38:09 pm »

I'm not sure about your formula Midnight, but what Drakonis said about results is true. You want to hurt an armored target with a Minigun, you hose him with AP, end of story. JHP is going to work too against stuff like Metal Armor mk2 without psycho, but in the end you're going to have AP being slightly more effective on this level and really making the difference against better protection. Since I don't think there's some voodoo magic going on it must be the fact that something's wrong about the formula or you're not taking something into account. I mean I've shot PLENTY of people with .223, 5mm JHP and 5mm AP with a top tier big gun (LSW, Avenger) and I will easily choose AP loaded Avenger for PvP any day of the week - it simply works against lightly armored targets and works best out of the three against guys in Metal and better.
Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 03:52:15 pm »

Yeah but that's what i asked in my first post, helping me to fix if it's not correct and all i get is guys who come troll "it's shit" seriously i don't care what they say i try to get this to work, nothing more.

I don't know where is the heck but only taking in account the DT feature make the avenger minigun useless against a BA with Thoughness (11*2/3 -10 =0) execpt for critticals, as you see DR don't even come in account and that's what i'm trying to figure all you guys say AP are better in high end where all point that AP are better midle game+psycho (maybe it's comon in PVP to have tesla+2 psycho) but on BA armor 5mm AP basically can't get good results, or DT is reduced by AP ammo but i see nothing about that anywhere and i haven't read too that you have perks on ammos (o_o).

If someone have anything that could make go ahead that would be good, but not simply say "this is crap boooo", anyway thanks for being constructive Nice_Boat.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 03:55:06 pm by Midnight »
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Crazy

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2010, 03:55:09 pm »

AP ammo has penetrate perk, it divide DT by 5, rounded down.
And that's why JHP suck and AP is awesome.
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 03:59:56 pm »

Ow you sure about that? Yeah if this is the case it could be the awnser of the damn thing.

I'll try it to see what all this change. FMJ are not affected i guess? So it would make 10mm, AP 5mm AP, 14mm AP and Needles with the penetrate finally?
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Crazy

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 04:07:03 pm »

AP needles have this perk (if I remember well), but they are not IG anymore.
Ammo who have this perk:
10mm AP
5mm AP
14mm
AP rocket

Also, some weapons have this perk (.223 pistol, magneto laser...)





PS: On the french wiki we made a good recapiculative board of ammunitions, look at the bottom of the page: http://www.fallout-3.com/wiki/Munitions::2238
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 04:11:42 pm »

Thanks it seem to work this way, AP do higher dam against heavy armor, good :)

I read somewhere that the magneto have a weird penetrate not really the same that ammo based weapon (something like -5DT -50%DR), that's why i didn't put it in the sim but yeah its  surely a simple penetrate in 2238, i add it.

And thanks for the link.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 04:55:59 pm by Midnight »
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Atom

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2010, 03:44:42 am »

There are two item-based sources of DT penetration, the Piercing weapon perk (introduced in Fallouts, visible upon weapon examination in the inventory) or use of ammo with armor piercing property (2238-specific, visible upon inventory examination), their effects don't stack, and they are dividing target's DT by 5, rounded down.
About the DR cap: target's instrict DR (coming from armour, perks, drug effects and any other kind of bonus/malus calculated solely on target's own stats) is capped at 90%, but on damage calculation, the cap is 100% (JHP or Finesse can "help" in hitting the limit).
In a related note, "armor bypassed" critical effect provides another source of DT penetration too (does not stack with the other two, and does not work with EMP weapons - that is, just an EMP grenade), it divides target's DR by 5 as well, and ignores Finesse 30% DR bonus.
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2010, 10:56:21 am »

So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)

i'll put this in the sim, it's becoming much more 2238 specific now.

Oh and finess is like toughness and psycho, only for normal damages right? On the Fo2 wiki they said it work on everything, but not sure about that here. (quite important with ongoing topics on laser weapons)

I saw too on a topic you were speaking of Bonus ranged damage being changed from upgrading dam base weapon to upgrading weapon dam after ammo mod, what is it now?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:32:15 am by Midnight »
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Drakonis

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2010, 11:51:36 am »

So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)

i'll put this in the sim, it's becoming much more 2238 specific now.

Oh and finess is like toughness and psycho, only for normal damages right? On the Fo2 wiki they said it work on everything, but not sure about that here. (quite important with ongoing topics on laser weapons)

I saw too on a topic you were speaking of Bonus ranged damage being changed from upgrading dam base weapon to upgrading weapon dam after ammo mod, what is it now?

finesse = -30% damage. Not taken by adding 30% DR, so it cannot be skipped by using AP ammo.
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FischiPiSti

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2010, 12:32:58 pm »

And afaik, DR is capped at 95% right?
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Crazy

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2010, 12:53:54 pm »

No, 90% for the player, and 100% for the damage calculation.... (Atom said it 3 post before, read.)
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2010, 12:56:46 pm »

I read on a post talking of psycho it's 90% and Atom is a dev, so maybe he's wrong but i ll believe him more than anyone else.
"About the DR cap: target's instrict DR  is capped at 90%, but on damage calculation, the cap is 100% (JHP or Finesse can "help" in hitting the limit)." can't be more clear.


@Drakonis I ask about Finesse cause it's not the first time i see people saying it's a base damage reduction and others saying it's a bonus (malus) to DR in 2238, and Atom seem to give credit to this last one, that's why i ask to confirm. That change pretty everything, like said Atom, particularry on crits.
Right now i'll stick with what said Atom.



Edit: I went on falloutmod for confirmation, thanks Atom. For Drakonis it's here http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_engine_calculations
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:17:49 pm by Midnight »
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 04:19:23 pm »

So the sim is workin at least correctly on armors with DR<60% and that's enough to show that some weapons are clearly useless and like pointed somewhere else, assault riffle is the worst in the case. (since FN Fals will be revamped, i will not speak about them here). If we compare to 10mm SMG we can easily see where is the issue.

First with strenght, assault rifle have a 45 range, but the point with this is that if you play a burster, this won't help you much, if you play a sniper you prefere using a Hunting rifle, better to snipe and one tier lower (even the scoped version). So yeah it can be good to be half sniper half burster, but not sure it as any interrest in this, since snipers do load of damages with aimed shots, no need to burst.
On his weakness the base damages are really weaks for a 5APs rifle.

10mm SMG JHP  avg 12.75 max burst 180 bypass 24 - AP avg 6.38 max burst 90
Assault rifle JHP avg 15.6 max burst 160 bypass 32 - AP avg 8 max burst 80

the 2 weapons do so few damages (against a simple leather MK2 JHP do same damages than AP on nothing) that you won't go for a single shot with those too since there are powerfull single shot weapons, and in burst the SMG is always better for 1 less AP to fire. Magazine are alike since you need to reload every 3 burst.

Now lets see how much damages a critter with BRF and 9AP can do in one round with each on a metal armor, since tier 2 should be ennemy of nothing uper than a metal MK2 (i won't oppose it to BA it would be a non sense)
10mmSMG AP 2burst and 1AP wasted -> 160 max dams
Assault rifle AP 1Burst 1 single -> 90 max dams

And 10mm SMG  have even a greater advantages if you use fastshot too, the damage drop compared the 2 guns for a feature (long range) that cannot be really of any use is maybe a little too strong. Someone said put the accurate perk to AR, that could be a little strong, but yeah at least it would make something a bit different in the game, long range bursters, but i fear it become a second sniper style. (specially if XL70 have the same favor)

Or it's possible to raise damages simply to match better those of 10mm SMG, making AR fire 10 rounds in burst would do it, and the difference in AP to shot will still give a little bonus to 10mm SMG on close ranges.
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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2010, 03:45:04 am »

So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)

That would be correct, which I learned the hard way :(
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kraskish

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Re: Smallgun balance and ammo types
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 11:57:35 am »

tried P90 vs BA AP and JHP orly? I thought JHP will have like almost 0 but they seem almost the same? Its true in reality? Dont think so but who knows
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