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[Midnight]

Following the thread on discution about someone wanting to play SMG i made a little excel file to have damages done by some SG as clear as possible.
The issue is i come to stupid results and i wanted to now where was the trick. Am i wrong in my formulas somewhere. I go to the point where many SG are useless, but even ammos are useless, like 10mm AP and 5mm AP.

I tryed P90c and 10mm SMG with both type ammos and JHP type give better damages on all kind of armor. It's the same with Assault rifle/XL70E3 with 5mm JHP.

I did
(weapon damages * ammo mod - DTarmor)* min(1;1-(DRarmor+DRammo)/100)

[Drakonis]

i agree that some SG are useless, but only in PVP. XL is a cheap and quite accurate weapon that allows your to snipe ghouls and other pray, and p90c happens to be the best small guns burst weapon that is actually quite good in PK. Small gunners should be happy- just look down at energy weapon users

[GroeneAppel]

Try using 10mm ap vs enclave and then use 10mm jhp. You will notice a huge difference.

[Midnight]

ok it has been moved, but i don't wanted to make suggestion before being sure of the formula, no mater.

Try using 10mm ap vs enclave and then use 10mm jhp. You will notice a huge difference.

Sorry GroeneAppel but it's untrue, if the formula is right, 10mm JHP are stronger than 10mm AP no matter what you try, and it's the same for 5mm, because of ammo modifier and ammor DT that exactly compensate the DR granted. And what dommage amount do you expect a weapon with 12-16 dommages will do against an armor with 15 DT? Whithout any doubt i can awnser you, so HPA and APA are off topic.

I was trying to see if my suggestions given in this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4552.0 were balanced, and some of things that comes out are quite annoying.
Assault rifle with best ammo is weaker than Grease gun, and 10mm SMG, i must say ewww ...
Actually even what i proposed in the other thread is not enought to make most of weapons sligtly interresting only P90c remain interresting, and FN Fal HFPA ...

Have a look here :


Drakonis please don't start trolling, you want to balance EW go ahead and do it on another thread, i was thinking to had the same thing for all weapon once i had confirm of my formula, but see how you start trolling this thread, i will not.

If the formula is wrong i ll have to change it a bit but since nobody told me i was wrong i suppose it's right.

[Drakonis]

ok it has been moved, but i don't wanted to make suggestion before being sure of the formula, no mater.

Sorry GroeneAppel but it's untrue, if the formula is right, 10mm JHP are stronger than 10mm AP no matter what you try, and it's the same for 5mm, because of ammo modifier and ammor DT that exactly compensate the DR granted. And what dommage amount do you expect a weapon with 12-16 dommages will do against an armor with 15 DT? Whithout any doubt i can awnser you, so HPA and APA are off topic.

I was trying to see if my suggestions given in this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4552.0 were balanced, and some of things that comes out are quite annoying.
Assault rifle with best ammo is weaker than Grease gun, and 10mm SMG, i must say ewww ...
Actually even what i proposed in the other thread is not enought to make most of weapons sligtly interresting only P90c remain interresting, and FN Fal HFPA ...

Have a look here :


Drakonis please don't start trolling, you want to balance EW go ahead and do it on another thread, i was thinking to had the same thing for all weapon once i had confirm of my formula, but see how you start trolling this thread, i will not.

If the formula is wrong i ll have to change it a bit but since nobody told me i was wrong i suppose it's right.

how am I trolling? AP ammo is usefull, try to hit a guy on psycho with JHP. oh and btw: energy gunners have 4 guns, laser pistol(crap), plasma pistol(expensive short range), laser rifle(crap in PVP), plasma rifle(very expensive short range).

I mean do some tests guys. tests in game. JHP can really suck balls when VS armored guy with big DR. And I dont want to balance just EW, I wish all weapons would get pretty much balanced. In-category disbalances should be a secondary thing.

[Midnight]

I have not the stas for psycho and i'd be happy to had them and stop with your EW, you already trolled the FN Fal HFPA topic now stop.

And i'm pretty sure AP ammos are no more use against armor+psycho simply look that, how do you expect from weapon that do 5 dommages against middle armor, doing more than 5 dommages with a DR superior, you have some bugs in your mathematical brain functions. On a weapon doing 20-20 dommages which doen't exist in SG 1 DT = 5%DR and the parity between DR/DT is generally 5%/2 so stop saying dumb thing i first want to know if the formula is good, what i think and then base somoe reflection upon this, no wind talking (based on nothing) aka troll.

Now i want base stats in order to go further, sorry but i never take a problem by the end, i know it could be annoying for some ...

Hell ... So hard to think a bit or be constructive in a post pfff.

[solid snake]

dommages is damage right?

[Midnight]

yeah damages, i wrote it in french sorry :/

If this is going somewhere i could make a real simu more accurate but i don't want to compare things with dumb, that's why i post here before having all tools in hand.

[solid snake]

yeah damages, i wrote it in french sorry :/

its okay man. that's what i thought you meant. wasn't sure..

[Drakonis]

I have not the stas for psycho and i'd be happy to had them and stop with your EW, you already trolled the FN Fal HFPA topic now stop.

And i'm pretty sure AP ammos are no more use against armor+psycho simply look that, how do you expect from weapon that do 5 dommages against middle armor, doing more than 5 dommages with a DR superior, you have some bugs in your mathematical brain functions. On a weapon doing 20-20 dommages which doen't exist in SG 1 DT = 5%DR and the parity between DR/DT is generally 5%/2 so stop saying dumb thing i first want to know if the formula is good, what i think and then base somoe reflection upon this, no wind talking (based on nothing) aka troll.

Now i want base stats in order to go further, sorry but i never take a problem by the end, i know it could be annoying for some ...

Hell ... So hard to think a bit or be constructive in a post pfff.

just whatever, man. just get online and try hurting a guy with combat armor on psycho with JHP 5mm and goodluck

[Midnight]

Since i will ignore trolls, i ve made a small simulator http://test.legends-of-olympia.net/Divers/FOnlinew.php
It's still WIP but it could be usefull to see something.

Since no one said my formula was wrong, i did with it.
I have rounded all damages since i don't really know how it is used, but that should not make big difference. I ignore critts since they are too many parameters.
I made penetrate dividing DT by 5 for needler, don't know if it's really that.
For psycho and some armors stats i used those from the wiki since i can't verify all ingame.
Ammos should have correct stats anyway.

The issue on assault riffe getting better stats with JHP than with AP seems to persist, if this is not true, someone tell me where is the mistake cause i have verified a couple of times and all seem ok.

[Midnight]

I have make the tool compatible with IE.

I ve check the formula once again and there is only one way all is wrong it's about DR cap. I ve read that you can't have more than 90% DR against something but this max is for everything or only for armor+psycho+perk.
If it's the first case, it's normal to have JHP making more damages than AP cause they reach really easily the max cap with DR, en DT is useless against their high damage boost, exemple with 5mm JHP which have x2 dam and +35%DR, against a CA it's almost caped  (40+35=75%) meaning that if the opponent take a psycho it wont do much difference.

If this is not the case, what i doubt, that mean that you can go to 90% and then finess or ammo DR could send you over 100% meaning you should do 0 each time you attack such target. Easy enough, someone with a combat leather jacket and a psycho should take 0 damage from a magnum revolver JHP (no critical) no matter the number of tries. But if this is the case, it's useless to go over 90% resistance and take 2 psychos.

Last psychos and the perk thoughness work only on normal damages, right? Juste want to be dure.

Anyway except from really high armor values (at least one psycho used) the sim seems to give good results. (except for laser weapon still in progress)

[GroeneAppel]

I didnt read it all. but ill still respond.

Nothing I said is untrue, instead of calculating things. actually try them. also, using 5mm jhp vs somoene in BA + toughness is completely usseles. Instead of calculating things, try them out.

[Crazy]

Even on a metal armor JHP suck hard. Believe me, if your ennemy have better than a leather jacket, take AP ammo.

[Midnight]

Yeah sure the game don't calculate anything he try too and do random things. Stop saying shit.
Draconis multi account?
How can you possibly do a simulator or even speak of balance weapon without being able to calculate values? Seriously, stop being stupid ...

You speak of CA with thoughness i'll make it simple. Take the 19max dam of XL70 which will be the more interresting to valuate your point of view.
With JHP you have Dmod x2 for 38 dam.
With AP you have Dmod x2/3 for 12.6 dam.

Now without even taking Dr in account, only take the DT or what you said, Thoughtness and CA, 5+2.
With JHP you do 31
With AP you do 5.6

Now that you are so strong, simply explain me how much DR difference you should have for the 2 ammos to cross, knowing the difference is 70% between the 2 types.
You tell me to try? Yeah did you try? AP 5mm are no more 3/4 but 2/3 now. Moreover there are many things going into count in game like critticals, and burst mechanism to make deduction of base damages with simply that.
If you look at deagle ammos, difference between JHP and FMJ give true results, conform to what i have tested.

So if you want to help or discuss seriously good, if you want to troll, go elsewhere. I wonder if it's not a kind of whining cause you fear there will be nerf of your favorite build if we go through this ...
Oh and please don't compare 2 differents guns with 2 differents ammos ...


Edit: Oh and before saying try blabla J.E. Sawyer make the exact same conclusion than me on the DT feature of all fallout serie, sure i don't know of what i speak ... And i really wonder why there is damage ammo fix on all patched version of fallout (even on 2238 cause it's 1/2 dam mod for AP in Fo2)