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[Wallace]

HtH is good now. Much better than before, thanks to chance of making really tough guy almost immortal against normal dmg, but two things are really screwed. Heavy handed guy can kill my crit HtH build without any chance for me. He can keep me down with unaimed hits for 3ap and I got no chance to escape or defend. Also absence of better crit for HtH makes unarmed critical build almost useless. I got problem with Haymaker to do some crits against headprotected enemy and if i make some, it almost never do some knock down/out/blindness etc.

The knock down feature is really good idea, but i dont know why is only for Heavy Handed trait. Agains all ranged enemies it is the thing that HtH build missed for balance all the time. But HtH with Heavy H. vs  HtH without it is absolutely unbalanced and gives ultimate advantage to the first one.

One question at the end: Did someone recognized problem with unarmed and bindings? On my client the bindings for aiming are not working with unarmed attacks. Haymaker and other nowielding attacks are not aimed by them. Spiked knuckels are working properly.

1 - take "In your face!" to even the odds... heavy hander may keep you down for a while but you do better crits
2 - not true - i fought with some people (who were shooting at me) and they could get up and runaway or sell me a bullet in the eyes occasionally. I'd say chances aren't far from 50/50 (but shooters have much greater chance for killing HtH who is running away and HtH won't gonna catch shooter running to the exit grid =/
3 - What do you mean "absence"? There is a "Better HtH criticals" perk or something... right?
4 - "Hit the gaps" perk might be coming handy
5 - If both Heavy-handers get In your face! then the odds are like 50/50 too

[Mithguar]

Well actualy... My lvl 1 char with HH and 10 str is winning as long as:
a) it's 1vs1
b) land a hit (even 1)
With str 10 and over 80 i hit almost every time (standing targets have 0 AC so no chance to avoid). They can run but if they stop to shot then if they not kill me with first shot then they are as good as dead...
Now question:
Is it ment to be that lvl 1 char (when i get to lvl 2 and get my unarmed over 100 god have mercy) to be able to kill anyone as long as it hit him? With this all chars NEED to have 10 END and Stone wall perk or they can die killed by lvl 1 char. And it's not becouse this lvl 1 char is good player. It just have HH trait...
Once again i will compare HH with KD to Slayer perk.
Slayer - luc test for crit (crit not equal KD), Perk (take perk slot), not available
HH - STR test for KD, Trait available from start, adds melee dmg lowers crit rate (so basicly this bonus melee dmg make up for lower dmg then crit)
So if you don't plan to add Slayer or Sniper perk then why add this?

[Solar]

If it turns out to be too good then its a simple fix to add in a -X to the Str test. If it is too good or not hasn't been decided yet.

[Wallace]

It isnt too good. Stonewall and In Your Face! are remedies to it

In case of stonewall Vs HH i'd say to implement roll for each - who rolls better wins (stone keeps his stance / HH knocks stonewall)

[pistacja]

There's fast recovery, it should make a knockdown -1 not -3AP and it's only lv3. You'd need a rock and bonus hth attacks to keep someone knockdowned, with a 3ap attack you'd run out of ap while the victim still can have up to 7ap. With a rock you'd have to hit 50x to kill an armored player with ~200hp.

[Haraldx]

Stonewall>Heavy Handed.
There, I did it, I fixed this issue.

[Mithguar]

Or make KD from HH depand on unarmed skill [like STR/2+((unarmed-80)/20))]. It would make sense to get more unarmed then 125 and new char would have much smaller chance to KD then expirienced one...

like in this example a char with 10 str and 180 unarmed would have same chance to KD as char with 10 str now. People who go for HtH would get higher unarmed anyway to get bonus HtH. And it would make lvl1 toons made just to KD people less usefull...

[JovankaB]

So if you don't plan to add Slayer or Sniper perk then why add this?

comparing it to cricals that can
do 4x dama, bypass armors, cripple, ko,  insta kill you isn't serious....

Non-critical HtH kills slowly.
If you don't surprise ONE person and ONE person only you are dead

It's strong but only in very specific situation when you surprise and get 1 hex close to someone who is alone. And you still can get away if you are lucky.

I like that people can jump at you from behind some corner and beat you on a street if you are
not careful. It's more accurate of what postapo HtH would be I think.

[Haraldx]

[like STR/2+((unarmed-80)/20))]

Str: 8
Unarmed: 180

4+50=54% knockdown?

Str: 10
Unarmed; 300

5+110= 115% knockdown?

[Mithguar]

hehe it was Example... but please show me someone who will get 300 unarmed... And if someone does then he/she deserve 95% (i thing that is always cap) KD...

But i must say i'm not against HH with KD anymore.

Other thing is HtH evede perk. As we all know, guy shoting from minigun is easy target. But HtH fighter even standing in 1 pleace isn't that easy. So maybe this perk could give AC (or some part of it) even when standing still when both hand slots are empty?

[Kharaam]

For me everything seems fine, sure as long as you have 10 STR and heavy handed it may seem overpowered but Stonewall is the answer for this!
As for HtH Evade I think it shouldn't work when standing in place, In Your Face is enough! However HtH Evade should work when melee or unarmed weapons are equipped!

Apart from that HtH is fine for now, finally you can run-target your enemies!

[Swinglinered]

"screwed"?

They are kings now.

No money or resources needed.

[runboy93]

Finally bonus HtH attacks fixed
180% skill requirement now.

[Wallace]

Mithguar, Kharaam, Haraldx read the damn previous posts now won't you? This thread isn't that long to repeat something that was told already...

HtH Heavy handers arent overpowered - they get smoked by 2 bursts before they can get close enough to punch a burster

[T-888]

Great now all blue-suits are a threat and any one who get's near can keep me down forever if has enough action points.

I'd lower the maximum potential of the perk for endurance to lower the chance to be knocked down by that trait , let's say +20% resistance if target attacked has 10 endurance , at least some chance to get back on feet if your tough enough.

I just don't understand why to rely the only defence on a perk.