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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: JovankaB on July 20, 2010, 12:35:25 pm
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I think drugs could give the lower stat boost the higher your stat is, for example buffout would give +3 ST when you have 1-2 ST, +2 when you have 3-5 ST and +1 if you have 6-9 ST and +0 if you had 10. So taking 2 buffouts for someone with 1 ST would give 1+3 = 4, 4+2 = 6 ST (+5 bonus) and for someone with 6 ST it would give 6+1 = 7, 7+1 = 8 ST (+2 bonus).
Another example, taking 2 JETs could give +3 AP for people with really horrible 5-6 AP, +2 AP for people with 7-9 AP and +1 for people with 10 or more AP. So someone with very low 5 AP after taking 2 JETs, could have 5 + 3 = 8, 8 + 2 = 10 AP (high, but still "normal") someone with 10 AP would get only a bonus +2 after taking 2 JETs.
This way drugs would be used as DRUGS - temporarily improving abilities where stats are below norm, it wouldn't make you a godlike creature if you have some stats like APs maximized already.
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And what about the bad effects ? They stay the same as now ?
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I'd say a big yes, indeed, and the bad effects really should stay as they are, or be amped up a bit the lower the "good" effect is.
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i say big NO , its my opinion i dont want change system :-*
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I think drug usage is highly overrated phenomenon. Yes it will make drug powerbuilds extremely powerfull but drugs and drug powerbuilds are used only on big engagements during town control. I don't think they have too big impact on people not involved in town controll.
Especially buffourt is used mainly in 1st drug powerbuilds so there is practicaly no change. This suggestion would nerf only jets. But I must agree that some changes of drugs is nescessary. They are making you to make PvP chars which are superpowered with drugs and useless without them thus encouraging alting.
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Rotfl. A purely hypothetical problem with a purely hypothetical solution.
1. Drugs on powerbuilds are mostly used for saving SPECIAL by making certain stats low.
2. Even if you play with the settings a bit, changing item stats etc. is not going to eliminate powerbuilds, it's just going to shift the direction people are going when making them. And drugs are going to be used as long as they increase stats.
3. As someone else already pointed out, this is really a non-issue because drug powerbuilds are exclusively TC related... unless you're a psycho and you take 50 minutes of crafting into your bloodstream just to kill some random dudes in an unguarded mine. But if you do that, it should be your right - you invest, you profit (or not, there's risk involved anyway).
As usual, I suggest that people who don't PvP should be prohibited from making any suggestions related to PvP.
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[Troll]Drugs don't have to be related to PvP ::)[/Troll]
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I'm for a changes about drugs, atm drugs are overpowered
And Nice_boat, you're wrong, drugged powerbuild are not only for TC. Full drugs psycho/jet are immune to big gun and alone one is able to withstand 4 people easily. If snipers don't get bypass he can do rampage. Before trying to establish your "good words", think...Why people can't makes suggestion about drugs, you know, fighting drugged pkers or players is PvP, it's not TC I agree, but it's Pvp anyway. So please stop with craps like someone should be prohibited
I find this suggestion quite interesting and should be good to don't see 3 avenger's burst in a row, making any non-psycho build or powerbuild fall.
Drugs are here to boost stats for a little period, not make you an imba-machine for a little period. Of course if drugs are rebalanced, negatives effects should be balanced as well
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It's not anti-PvP, it's anti-powerbuilding. I think drugs should increase your stats but they shouldn't make you a killing machine indestructible by anyone except other drug users. It would make drugs useful for low stats by making the stats NORMAL for a short time. But it would be a lot less useful for overboosting stats which are maxed or very high from the beginning.
It's not only about JET, for example weak drugs like cigarettes could help only people with low perception, etc.
I don't really think negative effects should change, because if someone has 10 AG losing 1 AP is not as a big deal as for someone with 4 AG, so actually now maxed stats have advantage also in negative effects of drugs.
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Maybe people should not be able to take 2 doses in a row, or not be able mix some kind of drugs, or it would cause an overdose (very bad effects on SPECIAL). It would be more realistic.
Concerning cigarettes and nuka, I don't think they have to be nerfed, cause their time effect is too short, and they don't cause any addiction (except nuka, but you know, it does nothing).
I bet my drug-addicted friends will kill me for this suggestion... :P
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Unfortunately, almost all of you don't seem to know why the drugs are now a problem.
1. Drug builds are superior to any non-drug build in the mean of effectiveness/survivability
2. Making non-drug builds for pvp is kinda useless, because always drug powerbuilds can enter from worldmap when they have drug effect, kill you easily and leave safely before their withdrawal starts.
3. Playing drug builds is still a pain in the ass because of withdrawal and crafting/farming of drugs, but no one is going to give up drugs (see point 2.)
4. During the withdrawal you can't do shit as you are even weaker than non-drug build.
We have already talked about this problem but it seems there is no simple solution (except removing drugs or removing withdrawal, either of which is a bad choice, because people use drugs not only for pvp and we don't like removing anything from this game, too).
Change in drug effect won't change anything except making all current powerbuilds useless. But as drugs will be still working, new drug powerbuilds will appear and new chars will have to be created - so again, why to waste your time or someone's time. But it doesn't solve anything, really.
Powerbuilds were always present and will be. Our gang started using any drugs in February or March - before that, we were using normal powerbuilds which, considering the number of people using drugs in those times (low number), proved to be effective. So I don't really see why any change in drug mechanics would be "anti-powerbuilding", as the problem itself is somewhere else.
No one using drugs is indestructible by non-drug users. On numerous occasions, we had successful kills in drug vs non-drug alts fights. Only the chance of doing that is much lower - and it's good, because playing drug alt and supplying him with drugs isn't easier than playing non-drug alt.
What we need is a major change in drug mechanics, but I don't think anyone knows where to start.
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I think that there must exist absolutely new aproach of drugs using during the PvP. Kilgore wrote it right, today PvP chars without drugs are useless. It is bad game concept.
At first, i think that PvP must be balanced, not only drugs. Give us way how to eliminate biggunner on psycho and jets, and we dont need to nerf drugs.. but developers dont want change pvp because they dont play it.
Anyway:
1) Make drug effect quicker.. 1 minute?
2) Eliminate bad effects..
3) sideeffect (excepet cig and nukas): 1 drug:fluctuation of hp +- from 1 to 9
2 drugs hp +- from 10-20
3 drugs: hp +- 21 -50
4) add only one effect of drug (jet - AP, buff - st, mentat - char, nuka - ag, cig - pe)
5) lower the effect of drug (only 1 AP instead of 2, only 1 char insted of 2,...)
6) if you take different kind of drug (except nukas and cig), you will have 50 percent chance to eliminate previous good effect of drug
implement social "boosters" instead of drugs: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=6892.0
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I suggest only one drug can be in your system at a time. That includes stuff like Nuka and cigarettes.
People still get to use drugs, but they have to pick something appropriate to the situation/what is most important for their character. If you use one, you have to wait for it to wear off. Huffing jet then injecting psycho at the same time overdoses you.
Overdosing could knock you out, kill you, whatever.
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Give us way how to eliminate biggunner on psycho and jets, and we dont need to nerf drugs.. but developers dont want change pvp because they dont play it
Use energy psycho or grenadier with plasma nades. If biggunner is wearing tesla, use long-range big gunner with a bazooka. Use range. PvP is now pretty well balanced, compared to what we had before.
We need a well-thought system. Probably, some kind of overdose (that will knock you out, as Badger said) would do the job partially. But I'm afraid that it's not all.. we need to remember that some changes will just make "omg now playing drug char is pain in the ass but I still need it to be effective" kind of feeling, and that's not what we want.
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Now its ok, dont swap it.
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Drugs also should have immediate side effects, so you're not able to beef yourself up on Jet, Psycho, Mentats, Buffout, Nuka Colas and cigs all at the same time. Instead, they should be sorted by their effects and paired up, fe. Psycho should also reduce action points, while Jet would drop physical resistance. No long-term addictions should apply then, since drugs would be buffs usable by any character instead of powerbuilds. Lower drawbacks and less drugs used at the same time would make them more accessible to less hardcore players.
Plus, drugs should lower your max health for a duration longer than the first set of drawbacks(by a small amount), thus preventing people from running on drugs most of the time. The effect would stack naturally and if it would be a set amount, drugs would be no longer a tool for rich people to level up quickly aswell.
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Use energy psycho or grenadier with plasma nades. If biggunner is wearing tesla, use long-range big gunner with a bazooka. Use range. PvP is now pretty well balanced, compared to what we had before.
you are so theoretical, go away from home and than, with more experience, give us real feedback ;)
Now its ok, dont swap it.
I like my psycho, double jets, double nukas, double cigars sniper build. But i like more that this, previous era, where this was not neccesary.
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I still maintain a one-drug-only system would put the focus back on the character's build. Drugs would be a bonus, rather than a main part.
I mean, let's say you've just snorted cocaine. Is having a coffee really going to add to that?
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Well buffout is hardly OP, It's pretty useless for anything but upping your stats to get a profession so I don't know why you would start with that. Psycho is already well balanced, not all damage is physical and it cuts your range down to a bit more than melee and does nothing to prevent crippling or knockdown. Jet needs some nerfing as 6 ap is a lot. Usually that doubles how many shots you can fire(more or less) making you twice as effective as a non jet char.
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(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1650/gentlemen.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/gentlemen.jpg/)
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Well buffout is hardly OP, It's pretty useless for anything but upping your stats to get a profession so I don't know why you would start with that.
Buffout gives you +2 agility so if you have say... 7 agility and take two you get +2 action points, also it allows you to carry more loot, and with 10 Endurance from it sniper builds have a harder time taking you down and so does everything else in general.
Anyways I say leave minor drugs alone like nukas n cigs.
Although I want to say I agree drugs need a nerf I am also going to say with this system it will make everyone's drug builds useless
so all its going to do really is make ALOT of people pissed off and not really solve anything in the end as someone already said, there will be new drug builds eventually.
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Maybe we could add immediate side effects so drugs should be administrated by a doc or a medic to avoid these side effects. But it will become very complicated :-\
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Maybe we could add immediate side effects so drugs should be administrated by a doc or a medic to avoid these side effects. But it will become very complicated :-\
Buuuuhhhwuuuut?
There are frikkin dumbasses everywhere with almost no medical knowledge shoving needles in their arms everyday and now in the wasteland you need a doctor to prevent the side effects? :o
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Man this is the wastelands. Knowledge is more rare than guns :)
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Man this is the wastelands. Knowledge is more rare than guns :)
There are frikkin dumbasses everywhere with almost no medical knowledge shoving needles in their arms everyday
:P
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Pozzo, that would just lead to Medics running around applying drugs for everyone before combat. More alts, a lot of stupid micromanagement etc. It'd be cool if drug side effects could be eliminated by using some kind of medicine, sort of "flushing" the organism. This would make you weakened, but allow you to take another full dose. Because really, drugs aren't that bad - the only real problem with them is the fact that you can't play without breaks using them, which sort of screws up the dynamics and introduces rather silly tactics.
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as long as it doesnt change Jet, i dont mind changes...
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Because really, drugs aren't that bad - the only real problem with them is the fact that you can't play without breaks using them, which sort of screws up the dynamics and introduces rather silly tactics.
Yes drugs aren't that bad. But I think they are overpowered because of high-tech stuff we can use in the game (tesla + psycho + jet ). Drugs are fun and I would like to see more kind of them in the game but it doesn't fit with high tier stuff.
So you propose to have some kind of cooldown for drugs ? For example after losing jet effect you have to wait 20-30 mins to take jet again. If you take jet before that time you have effects but you loose hp minute by minute (like a poison). Yes it could be good I guess.
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Yes drugs aren't that bad. But I think they are overpowered because of high-tech stuff we can use in the game (tesla + psycho + jet ). Drugs are fun and I would like to see more kind of them in the game but it doesn't fit with high tier stuff.
Yeah, I agree that tesla + psycho + jet is a nasty combo, but it can still be literally blown to pieces by 2 bazooka shots or even 2 normal BG on jet up close and the perception is awful. I don't think there's any overpowered build/equipment set right now.
So you propose to have some kind of cooldown for drugs ? For example after losing jet effect you have to wait 20-30 mins to take jet again. If you take jet before that time you have effects but you loose hp minute by minute (like a poison). Yes it could be good I guess.
No, I'd say that there shouldn't be any cooldown (the withdrawal we have is acting as cooldown anyway :/ ), because 20 minutes fighting, 20 minutes waiting for jet to go off is not as fun as 40 minutes fighting. Also, current drug mechanics encourage alting - it's faster to relog than to be able to fight again.
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I am also going to say with this system it will make everyone's drug builds useless
That's not a really valid argument, because such big change in drugs (or any other big change) could be made with the server wipe (like it usually happens anyway)...
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Yeah, I agree that tesla + psycho + jet is a nasty combo, but it can still be literally blown to pieces by 2 bazooka shots or even 2 normal BG on jet up close and the perception is awful. I don't think there's any overpowered build/equipment set right now.
In fact this build is not overpowered in TC or big PvP fights because each side usually have 1 or more rocketers. But TC is not all the PvP in the game. In the small gang fight or in a duel almost nobody can win against tesla+psycho+jet.
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Psycho and Jet taken at the same time should automatically kill a person. Both are highly addictive, strong drugs that mess with the body. How does taking both of them not totally FUBAR a person's biology?
Anyway- The drugs effects should not be static, as in you will get a boost but depending upon luck or stats, it may be minimal or a surge
-The drugs duration should also be random and not static, as with static, you use it and then go do your thing knowing you'll be fine indefinitely for so long. Sometimes, you just won't get your boost. I believe the duration should even lower when you are addicted. You're an ADDICT, your body is used to the substance, how does using it constantly always give the same benefit? Bodies build up resistances, which would explain the progressively lower bonus as well as the randomized effects and duration.
-There are some minor drugs, nuka and cigs, which really don't need altering though they should be considered anyway. Not sure at hand what that would be for them, though maybe someone else does. Jov's idea about lower gains if the stat is already high might be enough of a change to those, however.
-Progressively worse withdrawal and addiction perhaps? The more you have used, the worse your stats are lowered when you are not riding your horse, which would in effect make drug-use casual, as only tactical use of them would give you the best use, with prolonged use bringing your char down to the point where you have to take it just to be normal.
-They are Drugs. They destroy the body from within.-
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-Progressively worse withdrawal and addiction perhaps? The more you have used, the worse your stats are lowered when you are not riding your horse, which would in effect make drug-use casual, as only tactical use of them would give you the best use, with prolonged use bringing your char down to the point where you have to take it just to be normal.
In the end this will cause all Characters addicted to jet to literally become useless and only have the adverse affects totally destroying it.
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Ahem... isn't that what Happens to people who are addicted to Jet...?
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In the end this will cause all Characters addicted to jet to literally become useless and only have the adverse affects totally destroying it.
Yeah, Jet is shit (I mean in fallout games).
But.... antidote exists :)
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Yeah, Jet is shit (I mean in fallout games).
But.... antidote exists :)
So lets say you are only suffering the bad effects of jet after taking how ever many times, if.. IF the antidote was reimplemented maybe if you took the antidote and there was a cooldown.. of maybe 3 days Real Time then you could become readdicted with full effects, balanced no? It would give others a chance not to get mowed down 24/7 by those builds because they will have to take long breaks eventually.
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There are three possible solutions for me:
1. You throw out all drugs with bad effects from the game, leaving Nuka-Cola and Cigs - that is what we definetly should test, it is a BETA right?
2. You rework drugs to give a player possibility to play without bad effects.
For example by moving all craftable 3rd lvl drugs to 2nd lvl, and adding drugs without bad effects to 3rd lvl.
There are many possibilities to balance it, it is just an example.
3. You leave drugs like are they now, or rework strenght of drugs, bad effects timeouts, stats added or strenght of bad effects. It doesnt matter, it won't change anything.
As long as there is a possiblity to farm drugs in game, people fighting in TC will play using drugged chars.
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you are so theoretical, go away from home and than, with more experience, give us real feedback ;)
What about some real reasons why I'm wrong, Mr. Fighting-For-New-PvP-On-Forum-And-Not-Present-In-Any-Battles-In-Game ?
If you think that psycho bg with tesla is overpowered or invincible, then it only shows how a bad player in PvP you are. I forgot to mention shots bypassing armors, causing knockouts, using frag grenades to throw him on the ground, make false attacks which force him to take drugs, then wait till withdrawal... really if such methods to deal with psycho bg on jets are too difficult for you then I don't know what you have learned by fighting in PvP fights during last year.
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Psycho and Jet taken at the same time should automatically kill a person. Both are highly addictive, strong drugs that mess with the body. How does taking both of them not totally FUBAR a person's biology?
All PVP players of TC gang have more of 1 PVP powerbuild, we will just relog another one. Cooldown is a bad idea to, when we are in down we do nothing or we change char, so at the end is not really a malus, only a waste of time.
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again people who dont fight pvp want to do some changes, drugs are good as they are, if a guy takes lets say 2 psycho and 2 jets which is 1400+ (lets say 2* 350) =2100 and he still can be instakilled or kept on the ground with knockdows while u wear ur leather armor and a hunting rifle worth 3k ....
srsly no matter how much i spend, no matter what i wear i still can be killed by a noob with a shitty tier 1 gun, it must be changed, unless we want to see swarms of noobs during TC, atm the best tactic is get as many people as possible, stuff even drugs is not so important
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Anyway- The drugs effects should not be static, as in you will get a boost but depending upon luck or stats, it may be minimal or a surge
-The drugs duration should also be random and not static, as with static, you use it and then go do your thing knowing you'll be fine indefinitely for so long. Sometimes, you just won't get your boost. I believe the duration should even lower when you are addicted. You're an ADDICT, your body is used to the substance, how does using it constantly always give the same benefit? Bodies build up resistances, which would explain the progressively lower bonus as well as the randomized effects and duration.
This would just encourage people making more PvP alts, so that once one of the alts becomes useless due to too much drug use, they will switch to a new alt.
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You say that like people are Not going to make alts anyway. "Don't do this, it'll cause people to make more alts," but what... they aren't making Alts NOW? You could look at this as a char-sink as well. You wanna use drugs, then you'll have to make another lvl 21 alt for when you drive the other one into the ground.
There are some who really don't like to constantly have an alt for every little thing and try to stick to something. And then there are those who breed like rabbits. This won't change what anyone is, but will put an actual cost to using drugs to boost yourself above others. In a pinch tactically, don't wanna lose that town, use your drugs. But expect to pay for it in doing so, and I don't mean wealth.
-For your advantages, consequences.-
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i do not think that powerbuilds is teh problem,i think is alting
i do not wanna start a war, bu i think that the players from big Factions(like The Rougs)have combat-druged base alts that have the same base, you play whit 1 for TC/PK, go at base, leave stuf there, log in whit other and w8 a day-2 for the adictions to ware off,in that time they play whit other alts.The big problem is not drugs but alting
I suggest 2 things:1. drugs will kill you periodacly for 3-4 game hours and the adictions will ware off from active playing hours, not RT hours
:2. make drugs ilegal and uncrafteble:easy, drugs means lack of originality,i can make a BG powerbuild whit LSW to kill every guard in NCR whitour taking dmg,but i do not wanna
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you forgot that some of them have bozars and plasma rifles as well as laser rifles...
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Drug should add small bonus to your char for short time (not for whole battle time)
If you use drug and drug effect is gone, you will have little penatly and you will not able to get more drug..
I.e.: fight in den, you start attack, you take jet, it will give you + 2 AP in fight for one minute, then you will lost -1 AP for 2 minutes and you will not be able to take another jet for cca 5 minutes (it will not have any effect)
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Yes, like some people here I think that drugs effect should last longer, maybe forever, but the drawbacks should become worse and worse over time. Taking another dose of your drug would set drawbacks back to normal status.
For example...
Jet (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Jet) effects as they are right now :
Immediate: +3 to Maximum Action Points, +1 to Strength, +1 to Perception.
After 3 hours: -4 to Maximum Action Points, -2 to Strength, -2 to Perception .
After 6 hours: +1 to Maximum Action Points, +1 to Strength, +1 to Perception.
Of course, this is in-game time. I am too lazy to calculate, but the worse drawback (after 6 hours) is like after 15 minutes in real life. So "good" drug effect lasts like 5-10 minutes, drugged characters know this better than me.
With my idea of a longer good effect, and increased drawbacks over time, it could be like this (with a removal to SPECIAL bonuses for good side effects, as it would last longer).
Immediate: +3 to Maximum Action Points, -1 to Perception, -20 kgs to Maximum Carry weight.
After 20 hours: -4 to Maximum Action Points, -1 to Strength.
After 40 hours: -1 to Maximum Action Points, -2 to Perception.
After 70 hours: -2 to Strenght, -2 to Perception, -2 to Charisma.
After 120 hours: -1 to Maximum Action Points, -2 to Perception.
This way after 120 hours (that's very approximately about 5 hours real time) without taking a single dose, you would have severe drawbacks and would become a poor, almost helpless junkie.
Taking one dose at any time would remove all the effects and set instead the "Immediate" one. Of course it is only an example here. Together with these changes, jet doses should be rarer, drugs combinations could maybe be removed, etc. Also, the "After X hours" are just random values, like the drawbacks here. I just think the future of the drugs is in a long effect of them.
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I'm don't think the duration of the positive drugs' effect needs to be changed.
However addiction should suffer severer consequences and they should last for active playing hours and not real-time hours.
Further more I'm not sure there's a drug that needs nerving.
Combinations of drugs and drugs used while enduring drawbacks or even addiction should be nerved.
For instance if you have taken psycho, stims, super stims and healing powders should have a seriously reduced effect (by roughly 60-80%).
More psycho taken or under a psycho addiction means stims, etc. have even lesser effects.
Combinations of drugs should also be able to lead to death.
If you take serveral different kind of drugs which cause you to get extra action points, it could lead to a fatal heart attack.
I'm in favor of some kind of formula which gives you an x amount of chance to die when you take your 2nd kind of drug on top of 1 or 2 of a the first kind taken.
Doctor and FA skill could and current addiction(s) should be of influence here.
The chance of an addiction could be influenced by your FA en doctor skill.
The lower they are, the higher the chance you become addicted.
Perhaps there's a way alcohol could play a role in boosting or reducing the effects of certain drugs and skills?
For instance 1 or 2 beers could lower the IN you get from mentats, but could raise the charisma it gives you.
On the same time however it would reduce your fighting skills, doc and FA a bit, whereas it increases your speech and barter.
Off course alcohol would have it's own chance of addiction.
I also like Izual's suggestion.
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Just because you are knowledgeable about the drugs and the effects should not have any effect on your addiction chance. Biology is biology, and your know-how won't alter it if you take a drug and your body likes it, telling you to take MOAR.
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Yes, but having knowledge means you already know the side effects and might have taken some precautions which reduces addiction chances.
Also you would be able to know the symptoms and are therefore better of recognizing drawback symptoms which means you're less likely to give into that as you know what will happen.
Perhaps have FA and doctors skill nerve drugs stats for those reasons.
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It could be fun to add some "crazy" effects to drugs. If you take Jet or Psycho your character got psychological problems. If you tell your character to attack for example, he may do nothing instead, or he may drop his weapon or attack a friend ^^
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or he might run away for his whole turn, I mean for 10 seconds
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Yes, but having knowledge means you already know the side effects and might have taken some precautions which reduces addiction chances.
Also you would be able to know the symptoms and are therefore better of recognizing drawback symptoms which means you're less likely to give into that as you know what will happen.
.... What? Lower his addiction chances? How does that work now? To my knowledge, a doctor takes crack, he's gonna be messed up unless through extreme willpower he gets someone to help him before he ruins himself. This is not a morning cup of coffee, this is about an addiction that destroys everything about a person.
Some people here have some very vanilla and flaky views on drugs it seems. I wonder if the pansy drawbacks in games are to blame...
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Two things:
First, if a drug is going to give you a positive effect, lets say +3 Endurance, it also must give you a negative effect of equal magnitude, for example -3 Perception.
Second, if you become an addict you get "Addiction Points" (call it whatever you wish). So, lets say I used Jet and the effect wore off. Now for every hour (real life) you get 1 Addiction Point, say I PvPed and then came back 10 hours later, to get back the "positive" effects of Jet I have to use 10 Jets.
Of course numbers can change for balance, it was just an example.
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This way after 120 hours (that's very approximately about 5 hours real time) without taking a single dose, you would have severe drawbacks and would become
So I would have to make 5-10 copies of every of my powerbuilds to be able to fight? :)
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I have to say I don't really understand your counter-argument :)
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Only one drug in your system at any time. You know it makes sense.
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I have one idea. After wipe just dont implement Psycho to game. We would try game without Psychos.
They destroying variable BG builds.
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The two problems with drugs currently are:
1. Time they last. This forces fights to be short bursts where everyone is drugged up and do nothing for the rest of the time (Or switch to a fresh set of alts and repeat the process).
2. The effects are way too strong, especially when taken cumulatively. This means that instead of someone having a slight advantage in an area they are supermen compared to the normal person, for those 10 minutes where all action actually takes place.
The solution isn't to punish players by making taking drugs make you useless for massive amounts of time and it isn't about nerfing them to hell to mean they are no use whatsoever.
When the time comes for us to balance drugs I will be pushing for a large simplification of effects (only one time effect), downsides to go with the good for those effects (to make taking a cocktail of them counter productive) and lengthening the time the work for by a lot (as well as their cost).
You will then get people using drugs for much smaller bonuses, generally picking which effect they want and then being able to actually play the game for a significant period of time on the same character without having a legion of alts.
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That works. The uptime-downtime system just makes for bad gameplay. Nobody wants to wait fifteen minutes as their character lies sweating in a puddle of their own piss. Even the original games didn't get drugs balanced at all.
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Fortunately, Solar understands what is the problem with drugs and has some good ideas how to solve it.
Izual, what I mean is that I'd need to create 10 copies of one powerbuild, because of withdrawal being too long.
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In my post, I said the withdrawal comes after a long period of time and that you can make it go away with a single drug dose.
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In my post, I said the withdrawal comes after a long period of time and that you can make it go away with a single drug dose.
I don't like the fact that people could probably ignore the withdrawal penalties until their next fight. I can't think of a decent mechanic that forces drug addicts to constantly take their drug without ruining gameplay when they can't get any. That would be ideal. Drug addicts needing constantly take drugs in order to function.
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In my opinion the best idea here is : only one drug at a time. So you may choose between having a lot of AP or having a good damage resistance. In this way maybe devs will be able to create more kind of drugs without encouraging players to have power-build drug addicts.
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In my opinion the best idea here is : only one drug at a time. So you may choose between having a lot of AP or having a good damage resistance. In this way maybe devs will be able to create more kind of drugs without encouraging players to have power-build drug addicts.
downsides to go with the good for those effects (to make taking a cocktail of them counter productive)
If for example you have Jet: +2 Ag -1 Str and Buffout +2 Str +1 Ag and each dose costing $100, then you can have either:
+2 Ag -1 Str, for $100
+2 Str -1 Ag, for $100
+1 Str +1 Ag, for $200
Now those are just random numbers, but it demonstrates the idea - either small bonuses in particular areas or even smaller bonuses in a couple of areas.
Creates more options for the same number of items, which is more efficient :)
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If for example you have Jet: +2 Ag -1 Str and Buffout +2 Str +1 Ag and each dose costing $100, then you can have either:
+2 Ag -1 Str, for $100
+2 Str -1 Ag, for $100
+1 Str +1 Ag, for $200
Now those are just random numbers, but it demonstrates the idea - either small bonuses in particular areas or even smaller bonuses in a couple of areas.
Creates more options for the same number of items, which is more efficient :)
That concept is actully pretty nice but it won't really matter because gangs are practically shitting caps. But I would like the idea of a perfect drug with no downsides but it costs like 1000 caps a dose.
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Now those are just random numbers, but it demonstrates the idea - either small bonuses in particular areas or even smaller bonuses in a couple of areas.
I think that idea would only work well if drugs had a bigger impact on stuff outside of SPECIAL. If it's just upping your strength and lowering your agility people will just find the most efficient combination and stick with it, and we'll be in the exact same situation.
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Its not really a matter of pricing them out of doing it - the idea is each drug reducing the benefit of another so they don't all add together to make a superhuman. You either concentrate your benefits in a particular place, or spread you're benefits out more thinly over more areas.
I think that idea would only work well if drugs had a bigger impact on stuff outside of SPECIAL. If it's just upping your strength and lowering your agility people will just find the most efficient combination and stick with it, and we'll be in the exact same situation.
The most efficient way would probably be taking one specific drug, but (if its done correctly) it should be a simple matter of choosing what benefit you want, rather than a most efficient option.
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I disagree, Badger. The problem with drugs is that a good powerbuild is on drugs. With Solar's system of small bonuses to some areas, a good powerbuild will not always be a drug addict.
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If for example you have Jet: +2 Ag -1 Str and Buffout +2 Str +1 Ag and each dose costing $100, then you can have either:
+2 Ag -1 Str, for $100
+2 Str -1 Ag, for $100
+1 Str +1 Ag, for $200
Now those are just random numbers, but it demonstrates the idea - either small bonuses in particular areas or even smaller bonuses in a couple of areas.
Creates more options for the same number of items, which is more efficient :)
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=6944.msg60515#msg60515
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I disagree, Badger. The problem with drugs is that a good powerbuild is on drugs. With Solar's system of small bonuses to some areas, a good powerbuild will not always be a drug addict.
But that will still be the case if you can get bonuses with no actual penalties (beyond those cancelled out by other drugs), if you mix the right drug cocktail. As in, if Psycho, Jet and Mentats bonuses/penalties combine to just give you +35 damage resistance, +1 Agility and +1 Perception.
Edit: As a side note, what do you guys think about scrapping addiction entirely? It's a mechanic I'd love to keep, but I can't see it doing anything but making gameplay less fun.
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You are right, that's why I think drugs should make you more efficient in one way BUT less efficient in another way. Like a way to specialize yourself. For example, jet gives +3 AP like now but -50% to Carry Weight or -3 to perception, this way you are faster to shoot but not faster to move or to see the opponent. For snipers we could imagine a drug that gives +3 PE but also -6 EN, etc, etc. Just examples coming out of my mind.
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That's something I can get behind. Drug taking should be a gamble, not something you'll always do in every fight.
Like jet, for example, increasing your AP by something hefty, like 4AP, but at the same time giving you a damage resistance penalty of 40%.
However, this would then require Solar's idea of people with high stats in a certain field receiving a smaller benefit to prevent people becoming absolutely superhuman.
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I disagree, Badger. The problem with drugs is that a good powerbuild is on drugs. With Solar's system of small bonuses to some areas, a good powerbuild will not always be a drug addict.
well the problem is that there is no good powerbuild without the drugs,
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I really hate the current drug system, People just get like 10 Jets and then they can just Spam the fuck outta you with Grenaides,
The amount of AP Given should be Nerfed
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if dear Devs want new system of drug , first they should clean all drug addict .
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if dear Devs want new system of drug , first they should clean all drug addict .
And why ? Nobody forced you to take drugs.
Dont worry they probably dont will try it in this era i think.
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Anyway, I would gladly test whatever they change with drugs on CBT server before it gets introduced to 2238.
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.... What? Lower his addiction chances? How does that work now? To my knowledge, a doctor takes crack, he's gonna be messed up unless through extreme willpower he gets someone to help him before he ruins himself. This is not a morning cup of coffee, this is about an addiction that destroys everything about a person.
Some people here have some very vanilla and flaky views on drugs it seems. I wonder if the pansy drawbacks in games are to blame...
Doctors know the side effects, so they're less likely to take it and more likely to have some medicine to counter effect the withdrawal and addiction chances.
To balance it should also mean effects are less and last shorter.
Wrong assumption on my view of drugs.
I'm very open minded when it comes to using it, even though I have never tried them.
I've had an addict as neighbour twice.
Trust me I have seen the effects of drugs, both the pleasant and the bad side.
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well the problem is that there is no good powerbuild without the drugs,
That's why they need to be changed. Plus, consider a world without drugs - a "powerbuild" will by then not be an addict. As I said I-can't-remember-where, powerbuilds are just optimized characters. If drugs are not part of optimization, they won't be addicts.
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what i mean is if u use drugs u gain an edge over other players -crafters and other people who cannot afford jets, psycho etc ...
if u nerf drugs the only way to do it will be getting more people - quantity over quality which is no good, it means less action, gathering more people, and swarms, swarms of weak pvp builds, i hope u get what i mean
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And what's the problem with that?
It's good when a game allows to kill a high level player with good equipment, but alone, while you are "swarming" him with 3-4 people and lower tier stuff. Don't see an issue here, ebay.
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It's good when a game allows to kill a high level player with good equipment, but alone, while you are "swarming" him with 3-4 people and lower tier stuff. Don't see an issue here, ebay.
Man, that would be so much fun. 10 leather armoured hunting riflers vs. 4 combat armoured minigunners.
I always wanted a system that allowed low level players to have a reasonable chance against high levels. My theory was to increase starting HP but remove HP growth, so levelling up only gave you skillpoints and perks. But the balance of power would be turned upside down.
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Man, that would be so much fun. 10 leather armoured hunting riflers vs. 4 combat armoured minigunners.
I always wanted a system that allowed low level players to have a reasonable chance against high levels. My theory was to increase starting HP but remove HP growth, so levelling up only gave you skillpoints and perks. But the balance of power would be turned upside down.
I hope it works out to be fun, when it does happen 8)
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I hope it works out to be fun, when it does happen 8)
I already see the centaur army taking the control of wasteland instead of being slaughtered by PvP players!
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I hope it works out to be fun, when it does happen 8)
Beats being useless in PvP until level 21, anyhow.
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well the problem is that there is no good powerbuild without the drugs,
Music to my ears. You, sir, have stated one of the key points. The builds shouldn't BE dependent on drugs in order to function, thank you for bringing that up.
-The downsides need to be harsher because there is no real 'worth' to anything in game many times except to newer people, mid and even top ones who actually don't farm constantly for instant wealth. The 'costs' of the drug will never be the issue unless you make them hard to craft like a MFC, but even that, that won't change it. Downsides have to have a lasting, long-term effect. That deteriorates the char, hopefully. With no way to fix. :P
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the problem is a cap put on the players, even if u use the most expensive stuff like ca:bh which is 5 times more expensive than metal armor mk2 while its just a bit better ,u still can be killed by a 21 lvl blue suit, if u nerf the best builds ( i dont really know what u wanna do ) u will end up with swarms and only 2 alliances on the server which is no good b/c one player means nothing and will mean even less than that
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And what's the problem with that?
It's good when a game allows to kill a high level player with good equipment, but alone, while you are "swarming" him with 3-4 people and lower tier stuff. Don't see an issue here, ebay.
well we had this before,it was called "NA vs DA", devs wanted to cut if off, as i said if u reduce the max power of a single person factions will join together again
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*cough* sorry to say that drugs give advantage to champion too, if this was not true we will have less doping in sport, but everyone know what is the reality
we are here not talking of recreational drugs (that usually damage your brain to have fun) but of the drugs studied to improve your reaction etc
this drugs usually increase the chance you will be killed with disease after 10 or more years,
Fallout choose a playable compromise (it was one of the first game to call the drugs drugs, and to talk of side effect and addiction)
One of the crafters career here is doctor and this is usually based on drugs
to nerf a bit the use of the drugs (without drastic change) you only need double the crafting time of those and reduce the quantity you may find in a shop.
And make the jet buying from npc more rare (only 30 jet buyable in the den in 6 hour etc)
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to nerf a bit the use of the drugs (without drastic change) you only need double the crafting time of those and reduce the quantity you may find in a shop.
I think that "to double the number of doc(3) alts" was what you wanted to say.
Crafting time would change totally nothing (same with drug's $/time costs).
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Kilgore is right, people will always find a way to get all the shit they need... :P
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I already see the centaur army taking the control of wasteland instead of being slaughtered by PvP players!
Lol xD
I support the idea very much, more risk when PvPing, lesser gap between loners vs people in factions. Drugs are overpowered, enabling to go beyond the "10" AP or 10 SPECIAL easily. Drugs should be some temporary problem solver not a permanent way of playing. And the OPs proportions are good. I mean, 10 being maximum how much more can you get? Its like its out of possibilities of a normal human xD
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"enabling to go beyond the "10" AP or 10 SPECIAL easily" if its so "easy" why dont u do it?
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"enabling to go beyond the "10" AP or 10 SPECIAL easily" if its so "easy" why dont u do it?
Not playing a powerbuild sorry
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Not playing a powerbuild sorry
like 95% of people here
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Huh? You can't go beyond 10 SPECIAL. Or can you?
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Not playing a powerbuild sorry
like 95% of people here
This is what some people actually believe.
What does appeal to me is the 10AP limit. You can take jet, but if you're already Bruce Lee they're not going to make a huge difference.
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What does appeal to me is the 10AP limit. You can take jet, but if you're already Bruce Lee they're not going to make a huge difference.
10 AP limit can't exist. There's a 10AG limit, which is equivalent of 10AP, but like you can have action boy perk...
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I don't understand why people are against drugs, it is one of the key features of the game, if you want to spare don't use them but don't ask that thay give no bonus at people that waste time and money and use them, i may say I don't use combat armor, give more chance to loners no more combat armor or nerf them ...
Same logic.
And they make possible more char possibilities
But if you want really nerf it then make it don't stackable, only one drugs (one buf +3 to streght not two and +6, one jet +1 strenght and perc +3 ap not two +2 perc + 6 ap)