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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Admiral Zombie on June 18, 2010, 04:05:21 am
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Because grenades are stealing the show in the sneak thread I figured it would be appropriate to open up the discussion somewhere else. To take a few of the highlights...
I don't really think anything should be able to get down to 2AP with a knockback. Any situation where you can concievably remove the ability to act from a player isn't that great.
You could make it 66% chance to knockdown or increase the AP from 2 to 3 and increase the damage by 50% - the only difference would be you use more money in the 2 AP 66% chance version.
Endurance is a factor in crippling, but part of Grenades and Rockets niche is that they always cause a knockback. No reason to change that really.
It's just that... 2AP for throwing a grenade... Heh.
Throwing 5 grenades in a row ? Even more heh.
Grenade should be one of the weapons requiring the max AP to throw, and dealing high dmg.
Thats covered the majority of stuff at least.
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Yes, grenades are pretty broken. I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.
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Yes, grenades are pretty broken. I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.
they were also super rare in f2
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So heres my general impression of grenades at the moment
Moderate damage, knockdown, very low action cost makes it a very powerful weapon. However you must be within 15hexes to attack, making the grenade suffer the problems HtH suffers from (just not nearly as hard to get in range, and the knockdown helps keep them in range)
I kind of wonder how broken are grenades. On paper they sound extremely broken, but i think the 15m range makes a huge difference (then again the fact that you can keep the person on the ground makes a big difference once you are in range). I would have to test them out personally, and have to fight against them more to know for sure, but it does seem to need some kind of rework.
Anyways i'll leave the question of whether or not they're broken up to others. For now here are a handful of ideas.
1.) I don't know if this is possible (or rather if the developers are willing to put in the work to code it this way) but it would be reasonable to have the ap cost of grenades depend on how far away the target is. If the target is extremely close then it only takes 4-5 ap (before perks/traits) At longer ranges the grenades take up more AP. Seems realistic, you have to throw harder to hit farther targets.
2.) Make greandes similar to rockets, only slightly more spammable, and shorter range to balance. Increase the current cost of ap enough so that you can only throw 2-3 grenades, but increase the damage to compensate (We don't want grenades useless, there needs to be some kind of use at least.)
3.) very simple increase to range, increase apcost by only 1-2
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I think they'd be very easilly fixed by upping the AP cost. Throwing 5 grenades in the span of time it takes others to pull the trigger twice is absurd
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I think they'd be very easilly fixed by upping the AP cost. Throwing 5 grenades in the span of time it takes others to pull the trigger twice is absurd
What? I think you're EXTREMELY out of line here.
I'm assuming "pulling the trigger twice" means attacking twice, because the only other alternatives are so absurd that i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Most burst builds can burst twice (even 3 times i think with double jet? Not sure) snipers can do aimed shots so they have that advantage. Besides its not simply "how many times can i attack" but rather how effective are those attacks combined with how fast those attacks can come. Whats absurd isn't simpyl that i can throw a lot of grenades (comparatively i could punch someone 5 times, as regular punchs with the perk cost only 2ap i believe). Whats absurd is that each of these attacks have the knockdown effect and can keep people on the ground almost perpetually once i do get in range.
To do only an nerf to grenade's AP cost is absurd, as it will simply remove grenadiers entirely (Because at that point it would be better to simply go rockets probably) If grenades do need to be changed, then they need to be changed in such a way that they're still of use actually in comparison to other builds.
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Don't think anything is wrong with grenades as they are "out of the box". But low AP attacks which can benefit from Fast Shot/BRoF get huge bonuses. At least one of these (Fast Shot) won't be applicable to Grenades after a perk rework. In fact a lot of weapons won't benefit from Fast Shot, since a lot of weapons pay no penalty for it and this is not how Traits work.
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everything is fine, and im waiting for dynacords to come into game ^^
p.s. most popular skill now is small guns, and all i see in suggestion topic is small gunners whining of being defeated by other guns, stop it already dudes.
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does it mean that fastshoot wont cooperate with burst mode?
hell no (unless I get AP needler :D)
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Benefit 1 less AP required for throwing and gun attacks.
Penalty Unable to aim attacks.
Anything that doesn't have the penalty shouldn't have the benefit and you can't aim a burst.
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Don't think anything is wrong with grenades as they are "out of the box". But low AP attacks which can benefit from Fast Shot/BRoF get huge bonuses. At least one of these (Fast Shot) won't be applicable to Grenades after a perk rework. In fact a lot of weapons won't benefit from Fast Shot, since a lot of weapons pay no penalty for it and this is not how Traits work.
and you are very wrong in here, traits have minuses and bonuses but if you find a way not to be effected by its minuses then you are doing a good job, i see nothing wrong in that and its the purpose of this trait. Maybe you should think about making "small frame" to lower you agility if you are not overweight, since then it will give only 1 free stat point, also heavy handed should add +4 damage only to critical hits, because if hit is not critical then you get +4 free damage, fast metabolism should heal you with +2 rate only if you are radiated or poisoned and finesse should add +10 critical chance only to those hits who doesnt bypass armor, i talk serious now, you take all traits for their strong side to be used, not the weak one and you are willing to make minigunners aim? wtf? Then give big guns ability to aim on burst else i would find this fast shot changing thing as demotivating to play not increasing balance or anything.
P.s. other thing i cant believe is that with each grenade you throw 100-210 caps (depends if frag or plasma) with each rocket you fire 300-500 caps, while things like miniguns are caps wasting machines, and you are considering how to nerf these expensive weapons again and again and again, but such cheap weapons as sniper rifles dont even have something like scoped range perk, wtf? You are starting to balance things from wrong side...
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and you are very wrong in here, traits have minuses and bonuses but if you find a way not to be effected by its minuses then you are doing a good job, i see nothing wrong in that and its the purpose of this trait.
You ain't doing a good job, you just dodge the negative side effects then.
If a trait only gives bonusses and no minusses then it becomes obsolet and needs reworking.
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You ain't doing a good job, you just dodge the negative side effects then.
If a trait only gives bonusses and no minusses then it becomes obsolet and needs reworking.
so make all traits as i wrote before.... because they all benefit you in way you take them... thats the purpose of those traits to benefit you, not to make you loser? You want all people not to take traits at all? good luck with that kinda game, then i prefer f2 singleplayer :>
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Obviously some perks need changing in addition to Fast Shot. Fast Shot on burst weapons and grenades is not cleverly avoiding the minuses, because those weapons have no minuses at all from this trait.
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Obviously some perks need changing in addition to Fast Shot. Fast Shot on burst weapons and grenades is not cleverly avoiding the minuses, because those weapons have no minuses at all from this trait.
well i can just quite myself "Maybe you should think about making "small frame" to lower you agility if you are not overweight, since then it will give only 1 free stat point, also heavy handed should add +4 damage only to critical hits, because if hit is not critical then you get +4 free damage, fast metabolism should heal you with +2 rate only if you are radiated or poisoned and finesse should add +10 critical chance only to those hits who doesnt bypass armor".
Also i should add then that good natured should give you -60% to the gun skill you have tagged not -10% to all gun skills, thats the balance!
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Also i should add then that good natured should give you -60% to the gun skill you have tagged not -10% to all gun skills, thats the balance!
Easy to solve this by giving floating bonuses and penalties.
Floating -10% to all weapon skills means if you have 220% SG skill it'll be work as 210%, that's really bad for you and "takes alot SP".
But if you have 195% doc it'll work like 210%, "gives to you alot SP".
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Those things do not follow at all.
Small Frame always reduces your carry weight, heavy handed always reduces your crit roll etc. Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.
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Those things do not follow at all.
Small Frame always reduces your carry weight, heavy handed always reduces your crit roll etc. Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.
so you think FAST SHOT is designed to take on sniper rifle? .... Man get serious this trait is made for such weapons as miniguns or grenades, not such weapons as sniper rifle.
Small frame reduced carry weight affects you only if you are full, if you have 10/45 it gives you only free stat point. If you dont aim heavy handed only adds you damage, pure profit for damage dealing...
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Well i was in New Reno and before i could draw my pistol i was hit 3 times by grenades thrown by 1 man. 64 dmg and knock down, 53 dmg and then 59 dmg. In less then 10 secs i was dead.
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Well i was in New Reno and before i could draw my pistol i was hit 3 times by grenades thrown by 1 man. 64 dmg and knock down, 53 dmg and then 59 dmg. In less then 10 secs i was dead.
and he wasted 600 caps to get your shitty pistol. nerf him! grenades are 15 max range weapon, its natural that they are effective in this range since their range is very limited. Dont forget that with your pistol you fire like 6 caps, and he throws out 210 caps with each grenade.
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and he wasted 600 caps to get your shitty pistol. nerf him! grenades are 15 max range weapon, its natural that they are effective in this range since their range is very limited.
If 223 is shitty pistol, then , yes he got my shitty pistol.
I just think that 2 Ap for throwing a grenade is to low. Can u pull the ring and throw the grenade faster then u pull the trigger on a weapon ?
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Small frame reduced carry weight affects you only if you are full, if you have 10/45 it gives you only free stat point.
Small frame - Carry Weight reduced to 25 + (15 lbs. x your Strength)
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so you think FAST SHOT is designed to take on sniper rifle?
Doesn't matter what it used to be, what it will be is designed for single shot weapons where you trade the ability to aim for better DPS. What it won't be is an all round boost to bursts, grens etc without any drawbacks.
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Small frame - Carry Weight reduced to 25 + (15 lbs. x your Strength)
He means if you're not a digger or stuff carrier or a thief, you don't need carry weight much, so you simply getting +1 to your stat.
If you don't need other traits, you can always pick Small Frame and/or Good Natured, because they mostly working as perks, not traits.
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He means if you're not a digger or stuff carrier or a thief, you don't need carry weight much, so you simply getting +1 to your stat.
If you don't need other traits, you can always pick Small Frame and/or Good Natured, because they mostly working as perks, not traits.
dont forget fast metabolism. I said before that traits are designed to take them because of their given strength not weakness, and you just want to fuck it up :<
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Heh, trying to equate Fast Metabolism (Pointless plus, even more Pointless negative) with Fast Shot on a Burster or Grenader (Good to Great boost, No drawnback at all) is just silly.
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Heh, trying to equate Fast Metabolism (Pointless plus, even more Pointless negative) with Fast Shot on a Burster or Grenader (Good to Great boost, No drawnback at all) is just silly.
what you mean no drawback, you cant aim with knives or with spears, you are fucked you lose ability to cripple with thrower!
and with big guns you lose ability to aim with best sniper weapon bozar in whole game! everything is fine with fast shot one those 2.!
furthermore big guns cost 7 ap to burst even without aim. So then make same ap cost for sniper rifle and laser rifle without aim, then i will agree with fast shot change you want to make.
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Actually there is a problem with grenades... Are they designed to be mass-thrown weapons or to be used from time to time, as support ? I would prefer them to be thrown because of a tactic, not because it's your main weapon and you use 30 grenades in a single fight.
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Actually there is a problem with grenades... Are they designed to be mass-thrown weapons or to be used from time to time, as support ? I would prefer them to be thrown because of a tactic, not because it's your main weapon and you use 30 grenades in a single fight.
then give them range as for rocket launcher and it will be ok.
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Yes, why not. Increasing AP/crafting costs must be balanced (with damage done, range...). Just an idea.
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I think grenades should take 4 ap to throw and throwing knives should take 3.
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Agreed for knifes, somehow they don't need another nerf ;p
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Plus if you wanna go for the movie feel, you can't go wrong with a guy throwing like 3 knives at once and hitting everyone he aims at in the neck.
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Yes, grenades are pretty broken. I noticed that even in the original fallout games, to the point I refused to use them.
Broken from "Game" or "Simulation" pov?
I get the idea that some people here want grenades to be like in Counterstrike: an annoying and sometimes useful thing that provides "support". At least in CS/CSS, nades provide some kind of indirect fire.
Also: I haven't seen knockback/knockdown from grenades in a while.
I just think that 2 Ap for throwing a grenade is to low. Can u pull the ring and throw the grenade faster then u pull the trigger on a weapon ?
2 AP is with Fast Shot AND BRoF (a Lv 15 Perk), so this is an extreme case, requiring a high-level specialist.
As for pulling a ring... rings can be pre-pulled and the lever held with a string- perhaps even several grenades on a string.
Kind of dangerous, though.
Hmmm...
Perhaps a "primed" mode with dynamite-like countdown, 1 AP put put the ring back in and stop the countdown.
Pre-burned grenades keep their countdown after ring-reinsertion and have to be recrafted (1 GP) to make them regular, stackable nades again.
I wouldn't have a problem if nades were AP6-7 to start with, and bring back the old knockback/down, maybe increase AoE by 1 hex, increase crafing CD by 1 minute per individual nade, and have the max range be based on Str 5 (Which it sort of is, but in a way that makes higher Str not matter).
Add 1 range per Str above that, and 2 per level of Heave-Ho!
At present Heave Ho only helps with Str <5.
Perhaps require an extra AP to throw beyond regular max range if Str/Heave Ho enable the extra range.
1 total or 1 per hex or 1 per 2-3 hexes?
This way nades would be balanced in a way that satifies both gaminess and simulation. (Well, a compromise.)
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Those things do not follow at all.
Small Frame always reduces your carry weight, heavy handed always reduces your crit roll etc. Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.
Wrong. Throwers can't level up by eyecritting with spears/throwing knives, which makes them a bitch to bring to 21. Bursters can't use Bozar, which would be epic for crit-based BG on jet... and most BG these days are crit-based to some extent. The "harder to level" argument works here as well - firing a Bozar 100 times is waaaay cheaper than firing a minigun or a rocket launcher. I don't think I need to tell you how it limits SG bursters, cause that's obvious.
And honestly, wtf is with people writing that grenades cause knockback? Plasma grenades don't - and they're the only ones that matter. If 2 ap/throw pains your eyes, make it 3 or 4 - but increase the damage by 50% or 100%, because right now they're good when it comes to damage output - slightly better than rifles, way worse than any BG/SG burstmachine. Besides, I'm just curious - why are you tinkering with a weapon that's more or less well balanced? Trying to break stuff for no reason? Because honestly, the only people who complain about grenades are PvP newbies. If anything, they're underpowered, at least when compared with the knockback causing incarnation from a year ago or something like that.
Actually there is a problem with grenades... Are they designed to be mass-thrown weapons or to be used from time to time, as support ? I would prefer them to be thrown because of a tactic, not because it's your main weapon and you use 30 grenades in a single fight.
Than make the players capable of targeting terrain aside from other critters. You'd get a lot of "tactical" grenade use in room clearing etc. Furthermore - why can't they be both?
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Fast Shot does nothing to bursters and grenade throwers ... ever.
Erm.. making "fast shot" not working for bursters would cause imbalance in current pvp.
Grenades are now fine: they aren't too powerful and also they aren't useless, they are quite effective while playing solo. Yet I see every now and again someone whines about grenades because he was killed.
Shit happens. If you now nerf grenades, then they will whine about being killed by a big gunner, so you will nerf big gunners, then they will whine about uber small gunners and so on..
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Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both Fast Shot BRoF
None 1.832706767
LJ 1.64943609
LA 1.64943609
LA2 1.64943609
CLJ 1.928571429
M 1.633928571
M2 1.531808036
Tesla 0.368303571
CA 1.074953008
CA2 1.301330249
BCA 1.006362059
Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both BRoF only
None 1.466165414
LJ 1.319548872
LA 1.319548872
LA2 1.319548872
CLJ 1.542857143
M 1.307142857
M2 1.225446429
Tesla 0.294642857
CA 0.859962406
CA2 1.041064199
BCA 0.805089647
This is comparing to THE best damage dealer on the game. Plasmas would still be fine.
Wrong. Throwers can't level up by eyecritting with spears/throwing knives, which makes them a bitch to bring to 21. Bursters can't use Bozar, which would be epic for crit-based BG on jet... and most BG these days are crit-based to some extent. The "harder to level" argument works here as well - firing a Bozar 100 times is waaaay cheaper than firing a minigun or a rocket launcher. I don't think I need to tell you how it limits SG bursters, cause that's obvious.
A 50% DPS increase traded against not being able to level with spears (Levelling on Molerats will be fixed anyway) is no trade off.
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Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both Fast Shot BRoF
None 1.832706767
LJ 1.64943609
LA 1.64943609
LA2 1.64943609
CLJ 1.928571429
M 1.633928571
M2 1.531808036
Tesla 0.368303571
CA 1.074953008
CA2 1.301330249
BCA 1.006362059
Plasma Gren / Avenger w/ AP - both BRoF only
None 1.466165414
LJ 1.319548872
LA 1.319548872
LA2 1.319548872
CLJ 1.542857143
M 1.307142857
M2 1.225446429
Tesla 0.294642857
CA 0.859962406
CA2 1.041064199
BCA 0.805089647
This is comparing to THE best damage dealer on the game. Plasmas would still be fine.
A 50% DPS increase traded against not being able to level with spears (Levelling on Molerats will be fixed anyway) is no trade off.
Huh am I the only one who don't understand anything at your numbers?
Also, I have to agree with Kilgore and Nice Boat: they're right.
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For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.
(To put that in context, thats about the difference between a Greese Gun and an Avenger)
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For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.
3 Avenger bursts = a kill
5 plasma grenades = not a kill
You won't throw more because the target will be on the run. Oh, and he could always run towards you and burst you point-blank while you hurt yourself with your own grenades (and since most sneak-throwers don't go heavy on armour that's a nasty and effective tactic). Numbers and theorycrafting =/= everything. Real time =/= turn based. You would be right if plasma grenades caused knockback, but they don't - and they have very weak range. Basically, they're not the killer of this game and they're far from being top tier weapons, for reasons already mentioned. The only reason they're used at all is because they're the only weapon that goes along with sneak well. You mindlessly tinker with them - you break a weapon, therefore upsetting balance.
Bottom line: they're good as they are, there's no reason to change them. Same with burst builds.
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For example a plasma grenade will do +53% DPS on metal armour compared to an Avenger Minigun currently.
(To put that in context, thats about the difference between a Greese Gun and an Avenger)
Then why we don't see almost any plasma grenadiers (or 1-2) in battles, but we see many big gunners using avengers? Is it because people don't realise that plasma nades are some kind of an UBER weapon or what? Numbers are something different from practice.
And yes, I've got a grenadier with sneak and some experience playing such a char, I don't use him in PvP because psycho big gunner / energy sniper is simply better.
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3 Avenger bursts = a kill
5 plasma grenades = not a kill
5 Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*5 = 228.75 HP
3 Avenger Shots, Average Damage = 9.5, Metal Armour II is 4/35% = ((9.5*0.6666)-1)*0.93)*13*3 = 193.44 HP ... or with 2 BRD its 241.8 HP
Now lets factor in Toughness (2) on the Avenger, since we gave him 2 BRD, its only fair.
11.5 Average damage (2 BRD) 8/45% armour => ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.91)*13*3 = 201.1
Factor in Psycho? If you insist.
11.5 Average damage 8/75% => ((11.5*0.66666)-2)*0.85)*13*3 = 187.85
Remember this is with 10AP (Plasma) vs 15AP (Avenger)
I believe I'm right in saying that it has no knockback, but the animation prevents you firing back, no?
Lets say the Nader has 4 Grenades = $1000 (no perks taken up) vs Avenger 3 shots = $1062 in ammo + $10k
for an Avenger (with 2 perks taken up)
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Are we talking about 1v1 duel or overall usefulness of a grenadier with plasma nades?
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Well, with the animation time, with jet and full AP, you burst 3 times in 3 seconds, and throw 4 nades in 3 seconds. 3 burst kill, but 4 nades don't. Burster win. Also if the player go near the grenader, the grenader take his own damage. And the nades lack of range.
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Grenadiers should use grenades and shotguns.
Grenade from distance, shotgun from pointblank to avoid splash damage.
Simple.
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Are we talking about 1v1 duel or overall usefulness of a grenadier with plasma nades?
We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.
Well, with the animation time, with jet and full AP, you burst 3 times in 3 seconds
Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.
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Not enough mana. Erm, I mean skill points.
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5 Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*5 = 228.75 HP
3 Avenger Shots, Average Damage = 9.5, Metal Armour II is 4/35% = ((9.5*0.6666)-1)*0.93)*13*3 = 193.44 HP ... or with 2 BRD its 241.8 HP
Now lets factor in Toughness (2) on the Avenger, since we gave him 2 BRD, its only fair.
11.5 Average damage (2 BRD) 8/45% armour => ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.91)*13*3 = 201.1
That would be Toughness (1), because you don't take two on a powerbuild. Ans I still will insist that Avenger is way more reliable in providing you with kills than plasma nades. No idea why, it's just the way it is.
Oh, and please remember a good BG build has a 20-25% critical chance, with most criticalls being one shot kills. With 3 bursts you're more likely to shoot the guy up like that than not. Grenade builds have 1% critical chance.
And once you factor in the exposition factor (break from cover, 3 bursts, hide vs. break from cover, throw 5 times while exposed, get killed before scoring a kill) you come to the conclusion PvP players have realized a long time ago - grenades suck in group combat. They're a good assassination 1v1 weapon against a surprised victim. That's basically it.
Factor in Psycho? If you insist.
That's the only situation in which plasma grenades are theoretically viable in open combat... but then again let's be hardcore and factor in Tesla. Starts looking a bit funny, eh?
Remember this is with 10AP (Plasma) vs 15AP (Avenger)
The only time AP matters is when you either:
a) run out hard (that is, the enemy didn't run and you didn't get him after throwing 7 or something like that - the fact I've had it happen from time to time is a testimony to how grenades can suck HARD as a "battle weapon")
b) play turn based, in which grenades truely are just plain nasty.
Both cases really aren't all that common though.
I believe I'm right in saying that it has no knockback, but the animation prevents you firing back, no?
Click click click click BANG. Nuff said. The animation doesn't prevent you from either firing back or (which is more important) running. I'd say that a person that lets him- or herself be killed by grenades while wearing combat armor and up was either distracted or inexperienced.
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Grenadiers should use grenades and shotguns.
Grenade from distance, shotgun from pointblank to avoid splash damage.
Simple.
Sorry for quoting myself but I think being the last post it got overlooked.
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We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.
Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.
OK then. If you like numbers so much, grenadier has 37.5% of the range of the big gunner with avenger minigun, and also, the part of FOV where he can attack effectively and at the same time - safely - is way lower than those 37.5%. Of course he can use sneak. But when we're talking about specific builds or sets of equipment involved, then the biggunner can crit him killing him instantly, or wear tesla. Then, you'd say, the grenadier can crit him too! But in fact, I bet that average biggunner has critical chance at least few times higher than that of an average grenadier.
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Michael - swapping takes way too much time in which the target would be away/you'd be dead and there's not enough skillpoints to combine that with sneak... so basically you're just very much wrong. But I wonder how high PE shotgun burst sneaker on jet would work. Maybe 160% SG would do the trick here... I mean Jackhammer from 5 hex range with 3 bursts would probably be quite nice. But I don't think such a build would be anything groundbreaking.
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Michael - swapping takes way too much time in which the target would be away/you'd be dead and there's not enough skillpoints to combine that with sneak... so basically you're just very much wrong. But I wonder how high PE shotgun burst sneaker on jet would work. Maybe 160% SG would do the trick here... I mean Jackhammer from 5 hex range with 3 bursts would probably be quite nice. But I don't think such a build would be anything groundbreaking.
Forget putting anything in sneak though. Then what do you have?
Tag Throwing, First Aid, and Smallguns. Then put in FastShot and Good Natured Traits, and make a powerbuild accordingly.
Is it still not any good?
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Forget putting anything in sneak though. Then what do you have?
Tag Throwing, First Aid, and Smallguns. Then put in FastShot and Good Natured Traits, and make a powerbuild accordingly.
Is it still not any good?
Well, you still couldn't swap instantly, so there's no way you could effectively use both weapons in a single encounter. You could do it in turnbased, but then again you could just as well move a hex or two and throw nades instead (and I'm not denying they're super-strong if the target can't move and you can let them all fly, which is the case in TB). Another problem with such build would be closing in on the target - there's very little room clearing in this game, and it'd be basically sniper fodder in the open. I think the only way to use a shotgun in this game would be to go with sneakbursting.
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Well, you still couldn't swap instantly, so there's no way you could effectively use both weapons in a single encounter. You could do it in turnbased, but then again you could just as well move a hex or two and throw nades instead (and I'm not denying they're super-strong if the target can't move and you can let them all fly, which is the case in TB). Another problem with such build would be closing in on the target - there's very little room clearing in this game, and it'd be basically sniper fodder in the open. I think the only way to use a shotgun in this game would be to go with sneakbursting.
So the only way this build would be of any use the swappage would have to instantaneous? Dammit..
What about close quarters? If your in an small alley or a building you can't really throw grenades so being a mix between the two would at least give you some leverage :/.
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So the only way this build would be of any use the swappage would have to instantaneous? Dammit..
What about close quarters? If your in an small alley or a building you can't really throw grenades so being a mix between the two would at least give you some leverage :/.
No, honestly. You'd still be better off with sneak and the ability to choose the moment to strike/exfil "safely". I just don't think those weapons mix, especially since they mostly do the same thing. I've been thinking about making a sniper/grenadier build, but that would require plasma nades with knockback or dynacord. Grenades as a sort of close distance self-defence weapons are a mainstay on TLA, but they don't work like that on 2238 because of levelcap (different HP standard), running and lack of knockback.
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Well, this is what i think
The granades are very specific in their way as it is. A thrower character is almost a character "class" on its own. And personally i think that is good. So every skill like big guns, small guns, energy and thrower got diffrent tactics, all this together gives a bit more flexiblity to the game. More tactical options. I dont think there is anything that has to be changed in terms of granades... Maybe easier making of throwing knifes like 2 at once isntead of 1.
My 50 cents or how you say.
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Well, we can factor in criticals if you want.
Plasma Grenade boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.65%
Avenger boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.5%
Boost on Avenger with 2 BRD per 1% = 0.6
Now its very easy for a Plasma nader to get near +25% crit chance, they have very few requirements and no specialised perks. Lets say each has 3*More crits (Finesse is a stupid idea for burst, so ignore this), BG has 2*BRD, 3 More Crits, BRoF and ... Toughness? and Grenade Thrower has Silent Running, Thief, Heave Ho!, BRoF and 3 More Crits.
My Sneak Thrower would be: 3/6/4/1/10/10/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot - 95% accuracy at max range, enough sneak to be 15 hexes invisible vs Pe 10, crit chance of 22% (or +14.3% damage).
BG Char we have 7/6/6/1/6/8/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot to compare fairly, though Small Frame is less convienient for BG - Let's say this will do, we don't want to waste the perk on weapon handling because more crits gives +5% where +3 Luck is only +3%. Crit chance also +22% (or +13.2%).
Since you say Toughness (1) is the norm:
Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*1.143 = 52.3 HP
Avenger = 11.5, Metal Armour II is 6/40% = ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.92)*13*1.132 = 76.7 HP
3 Avenger Shots is then about 230 HP and 5 Plasma Grenades will be about 262 HP, even 4 Grenades are 209 HP.
Having tested it it seems the animation speed pretty much caps it at 5 Grenades per 3 Minigun bursts - This means a Plasma nader is like a Minigunner on Jet only they do more damamge, costs them nothing and the animation speeds are near equal. (I think its a pretty safe bet Jet won't be allowing you to gain 6 AP in future either, less effect and a longer period seems to be the best way forward.)
Advantages the Ambush Nader has are very high DPS, splash damage, the ability to choose where combat take place and very little risk/set-up cost (say $1000 vs $12200). Sure you're going to want Armoured people somewhere, but 3 or 4 Grenaders are a massive force multiplier (and still would be even if the only thing to change was fast shot not working on them).
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Solar, this discussion is pointless if you pull worthless builds and purely theoretical tactics out of your ass like that, sorry. You can't have a sneaker without skilled/10 IN, which basically limits your perks to silent running, thief or ghost, BrOF and lifegiver with toughness (1) or awareness. If you go with low HP like that, you're not even getting past that first minigun burst, and you're going to waste yourself with your own nades more often than you waste your enemy. For a good sneaker, you need 10 IN and 10 EN - so where would that high luck be coming from? And even if you somehow squeeze something out of your SPECIAL - how the hell would you put more critical in? Without skilled - how would you get enough throwing to get 95% at 15 hex? And why 15? If you attack at 15, you're not throwing more than 2 - most people would do the smart thing and run a few hexes back while their partner(s) fill you full of lead or simply run away if it's 1v1. You want to put enough of your nades in - you attack at 5. So basically you run up to the person in question, he sees you, you pray he's not fast enough/distracted and start throwing. And that by no means guarantees your success.
As to that BG build - you're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at 25% crit chance iis pretty much the standard, with better critical as a very much viable option. The bottom line being you end up with 1% crit chance vs 25% crit chance.
The only thing you got right is little risk associated with solo-playing a grenadier... but then again it's pretty much what people have been telling you since this discussion started. It's a good minestalker build and a good scout, nothing more. You still need armor for battles, and then the odds get a bit different - because once you unsneak in a big battle you basically die, while BG users have way higher survival rates and, more importantly - higher gear recovery rates. Just take a look at what sneakers do during TC. If you were right in the slightest degree, you'd see them blowing their opponents to tiny little pieces - but somehow they tend to go out of their way in avoiding combat - and most don't even bother taking their fighting gear there. I wonder why, if they're so lethal in your opinion? And how come people still go with different builds even though it denies them the advantage associated with sneak? ::)
To sum up, your calculations miss:
- actual tactics used by the builds in question
- the builds themselves
- implied odds of using a sneak-grenadier in large (ie. TC) PvP
... which pretty much makes them nothing more than some interesting, albeit useless, trivia.
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- actual tactics used by the builds in question
Grenader build. List of tactics :
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Grenader build. List of tactics :
Riiiiiiiiiiight. And snipers shoot and BG burst. And combat in 2238 is simple and that's why all the players do it right and are equally successful, which is why there are about 15 gangs competing on equal terms in TC right now and what's more all the PvP events have proven that it's all about raining grenades and being lucky ::)
Seriously though, that was some quality input on the issue at hand there, Izual. I think I've learned something about playing my sneaker today, thanks!
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If any special tactic is used by Grenaders, it's due to their Sneak skill, not due to their Grenade skill. You behave quite exactly the same if you are a BG sneaker (assuming it exists) and a Grenader sneaker. A big gun shoots a lot of bullets, and doesn't really care about one or two bullets, right. He is relying on his firerate too. Grenaders are quite the same. They throw as many grenades as possible, because ONE grenade sucks and they actually can throw 8 in a row with correct build. That's what I am against. I believe much more tactics could be used if grenades were used as support weapons.
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If any special tactic is used by Grenaders, it's due to their Sneak skill, not due to their Grenade skill. You behave quite exactly the same if you are a BG sneaker (assuming it exists) and a Grenader sneaker. A big gun shoots a lot of bullets, and doesn't really care about one or two bullets, right. He is relying on his firerate too. Grenaders are quite the same. They throw as many grenades as possible, because ONE grenade sucks and they actually can throw 8 in a row with correct build. That's what I am against. I believe much more tactics could be used if grenades were used as support weapons.
Not really, no. Because everything a nade sneaker does is determined by grenade range and splash damage. A BG sneaker doesn't have such problems, he can just run up and spray you (which, contrary to grenades, was very, very cheap and I'm glad it's no longer around). And no, they can't throw 8 in a row because by the time they throw the 4th the target is either in the process of killing them or has moved away.
By the way - what do you mean saying they should be used a support weapons? That they should be used like in real life? If so than remember they're used as area/indirect fire weapons, so it's not going to happen without the ability to target the ground instead of the critter. That'd require new game mechanics, I don't think that it's inside the scope of this discussion, ie. whether grenades require a nerf or not.
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how would you get enough throwing to get 95% at 15 hex
Pe 6, Throwing 123. 95% at 15 Hexes. Though should add a little to combat AC.
You can't have a sneaker without skilled/10 IN
Pe 10 sees 50 hexes. You need to take away 35 hexes => 210% + 75% for front = 285%
http://www.nitue.net/fcp/2.0/index.php char - SneakyMcGhee pass - sneak
124% throwing, 285% sneak, 74% outdoorsman (to spend the free points on something, should probably have bumped throwing up a little really) - This is a throw away character. Sit in sneak until the optimum time, pop out at 15 hexes and unload. He's going to die, but he has nothing anyway. I've seen these types in TC several times, scout for a while, then nade at the appropriate moment, this is just the best version. You're going to need non sneak chars to defend a town anyway.
Sure we can toughen him up if you want, 1 luck builds do 243.6HP off 5 Grenades (+6% vs the 3 shot Avenger crit build from last post.) but now we have a very different animal.
http://www.nitue.net/fcp/2.0/index.php - ToughSneak - sneak
We could even put LA II on him (-29% Sneak) and be seen at 17 Hexes, they get a 2 Hex warning, but hes a bit tougher again. (He could almost take 3 shots with AP ammo in his bluesuit though)
As to that BG build - you're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at 25% crit chance iis pretty much the standard, with better critical as a very much viable option. The bottom line being you end up with 1% crit chance vs 25% crit chance.
Lets see this 25% crit chance build, without Finesse, since Finesse makes you do less damage overall. We can see if he's as tough as our tough sneaker. (25% crit *3 shots would be 254 HP +4% to the 1 luck guy)
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By the way - what do you mean saying they should be used a support weapons? That they should be used like in real life? If so than remember they're used as area/indirect fire weapons, so it's not going to happen without the ability to target the ground instead of the critter. That'd require new game mechanics, I don't think that it's inside the scope of this discussion, ie. whether grenades require a nerf or not.
Yeah, it would be "like in real life". Not because they would have the same use, but because they would not be always used and deal huge damage. It is (unfortunately) impossible to target ground, but this flaw can be compensated with a strong knockback ability and a range increase, for example (The only nerf it requires as a drawback is increasing AP needed to throw one grenade).
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Solar - once again, 15 hex is:
a) too far to score a kill (your target can and will move almost instantenously, so if you hit with 3 you can feel lucky)
b) not 95% for 123 throwing/6PE (my sneaker has 140 throwing and 6PE and doesn't get 95% vs armored foes)
17 hex is just insane, on the part of the sneaker that is. How are you going to exfiltrate with that once shit gets serious or the other side starts looking for you?
I'm not going to post that BG crit build for obvious reasons (ie. BBS policy :> ), but no, it doesn't have Finesse.
Yeah, it would be "like in real life". Not because they would have the same use, but because they would not be always used and deal huge damage. It is (unfortunately) impossible to target ground, but this flaw can be compensated with a strong knockback ability and a range increase, for example (The only nerf it requires as a drawback is increasing AP needed to throw one grenade).
I could live with that. I mean increasing AP to something like 6 (basic throw) and increasing the damage up to 250% of what it is right now would probably do the trick neatly.
As for targetting ground - I've offered a solution a while ago. Just add a hotkey and once the player presses it and aims at the ground an invisible "target" critter with pretty high AC is spawned there and deleted as soon as the shot is done. Maybe not the most elegant way of doing it, but it'd work despite engine limitations I think.
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a) too far to score a kill (your target can and will move almost instantaneously, so if you hit with 3 you can feel lucky
Well, you have complete tactical surprise, they can't see you, you can see them. Come from behind them and they have nowhere to go, for example - there are many other situations, I’m sure you can imagine them just as well as me.
b) not 95% for 123 throwing/6PE (my sneaker has 140 throwing and 6PE and doesn't get 95% vs armored foes)
Yes yes, forgot about AC before making the char and couldnt be bothered going back through it all. Flick a few over from outdoors to throwing.
17 hex is just insane, on the part of the sneaker that is. How are you going to exfiltrate with that once shit gets serious or the other side starts looking for you?
I wouldn't really care :) I would have 1 LA Mk II (at most) on me, the only thing I’d lose if we hadn't won the fight in the end anyway.
Essentially you have a dirt cheap way of getting an Avenger Minigunner on Jet firing from 15 hexes or under, with almost no warning for the enemy. With the cost for it being less than the AP ammo fired and not reliant on a Jet timer either. Also denying the extra range a sniper has over a Minigunner in which to critical you and being twice as resilient to arm cripples.
Since we probably won’t be seeing 15 AP characters, it’s a pretty safe bet Plasma Grenades as they are won’t be seen either.
Fast Shot adds nothing interesting to these weapons and they certainly don’t need the boost. If applied to only single shot weapons then it can used to create pure DPS builds for pistols and rifles – which is something interesting.
I'm not going to post that BG crit build for obvious reasons (ie. BBS policy :> ), but no, it doesn't have Finesse.
Well, we can surmise that it must have BRD*2, Better crits*3, BRoF + something else. Also needs 10 luck, 8 Ag, 6 Pe (minimum), 4 Str (minimum) – with 11 points to share between In and En.
1 spare perk, if its not weapon handling then 3 of those points go to Str or to In to pay for the aim penalty, won’t be as durable as the tough Grenader.
I don’t mind the idea of grenades becoming more AP costly, perhaps with knockback/down added too all of them. They certainly don’t need a DPS boost however.
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Hmmm, I unfortunately haven't been keeping much track of this, even though its a thread that i'm very interested in. I'll just breeze over a few things
1.) Lets try to keep subject of traits/fast shot out of here, except when in direct relation to grenades. I'll open another topic up for trait discussion soon.
2.) There is a lot of talk of support builds, or using grenades as secondary weapons. Until the system allows for variance in builds and moving away super specialized builds, then i don't think grenades as a secondary weapon is very realistic.
he only way grenades would become support I imagine is if they become closer to rocket launchers. To me they're already in this category. Yes in 1v1 grenades are supreme, but in a firefight with multiple people you're going to be the prime target generally. I've had to use A LOT of grenades to take down people generally (although in all fairness those were frag, i haven't worked with plasma outside of PvE very much.) The biggest advantage grenades have in team fights is simply that I can basically remove one of their combatants from the fight by keeping him on the ground, while my friends target others (hence why i often use frag over plasma, although thats changing with the 5frag change).
Something thats getting on my nerves are people who keep yelling "grenades are OP" or "2 ap per attack is too little!" rather than actually providing some backup. Its nice to see solar provide some number crunching, i wouldn't mind seeing that tested in game though.
Either way here are a handful of ideas for grenades that push them more into the "support" role. If grenade spam is nerfed, and their DPS is severely reduced (or increasing the AP cost to 5-6 as someone said) then i do think grenades need some kind of buff in other areas so that they aren't useless. Mainly i'll suggest additions to grenades, and let the AP/DPS/etc be sorted out by others
* Have grenade splash increased. Unless i'm in PvE with melee monsters that i can easily clump up then grenade splash rarely makes a difference, except when i maybe miss a little. Allow me to actually hit multiple foes who do not work to spread out. My enemies practically have to be adjacent to each other in order for me to hit several, and that almost never happens in PvP
* Allow grenades to cause crippled legs without a need for criticals. Presumably the AP cost would be extremely high if this is implemented
* Simply make grenades like rockets with a shorter range, that is only slightly able to be spammed (If i could shoot 2 rockets, then i should be able to throw 3-4 grenades). Keep the DPS the same as a rocket (including the rocket's reload time) but the advantage being i can keep people on the ground more easily than with rockets (The disadvantage being that I have to get MUCH closer to my target)
Regardless of what happens, i think grenades will remain king in 1v1s unless you nerf them to the point that they're useless in all areas, much like sneak. Sneak provides a HUGE advantage, however these advantages typically exist solely in 1v1. I've seen teams of sneakers very very rarely, but i haven't fought them enough unfortunately to know how that works out (I tend to be by myself in those situations)
As stated though in a team fight grenadiers tend to be target fired pretty quickly. Which is nice, since I can just build my grenadiers as a tank and absorb as much fire as i can so that my sniper glass cannons aren't being taken out. My main role is simply to disable the highest priority, and take on damage so that others don't have to (people tend to shoot the closest target anyways, so getting close with a grenadier works out doubly)
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Well, something like AP 6, 65-150 and knockback would be fine.
Keep the BRoF DPS roughly the same (only +/- 1 or 2%) and boost normal damage by 10% vs a bluesuit and 15% vs BA.
Better DPS vs all armours except CA, CAII (equal) and BA (less).
Rocket shoots every 9 AP with BRoF, Grenade thrown every 5 AP
Makes it so it not so reliant on BRoF.
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Well, something like AP 6, 65-150 and knockback would be fine.
Can't wait for this (AP 6 with all AP bonus taken, right ? So AP 7-8 at first).
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Well, we can surmise that it must have BRD*2, Better crits*3, BRoF + something else. Also needs 10 luck, 8 Ag, 6 Pe (minimum), 4 Str (minimum) – with 11 points to share between In and En.
1 spare perk, if its not weapon handling then 3 of those points go to Str or to In to pay for the aim penalty, won’t be as durable as the tough Grenader.
Omg, if you want to make pure power build, don't waste your points on ST.
Critical perks doesn't require ST to pick them, so you can always up it with buffout. Don't waste on weapon handling, buffout.
7 AG only to take BRoF, x2 buffout gives 4 AG, so if your build doesn't require BRoF, then it's 6 AG.
1 ST is enough, x2 buffout gives 6 ST, so it's 7 ST.
So yes, 6 PE is minimum, 6 or 7 AG is minimum, if 7 AG, then 6 IN is minimum for BRoF, 10 LK is the must too.
Don't forget about imba drugs. Especially buffout, which gives to you possibility to use any weapon with 1 ST and gives good critical resistance, 'cause of +6EN with x2 buffout, so 6 EN is only if you want to pick toughness, or else it's 4 EN, so with x2 buffout it'll be 10, good enough to resist cripples and knock outs/downs, resist means no immune, but of couse less chance, much less, try to run around with 4 EN, almost every shot at hand will cripple it, then eat some buffout and say to friend to shoot again, he'll waste lots bullets on your hand.
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Ah, well then we're getting even more expensive compared to the $1,000 our sneak nader costs. Not to mention drugs will change. Having 10 minute supermen is likely to be a thing of the past.
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Ah, well then we're getting even more expensive compared to the $1,000 our sneak nader costs. Not to mention drugs will change. Having 10 minute supermen is likely to be a thing of the past.
Well I don't see any problems in buffout crafting, the only problem can be getting meat jerky at Modoc, because sometimes you have to kill town full of militia and then some idiots from ********* gang until more come, if you want to do it at day.
But going there at nigh, getting meat jerky and... lots buffout. (don't count chemicals, because it's almost the same as el. parts, I mean you can even remove chemicals and el. parts from crafting lists, because it's easiest mats to get)
I mean that effects of drugs will change.
Oh...
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I mean that effects of drugs will change.
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one thing is a bit crazy about grenades, they are "stackable" in one hand. a grenadier with 50 nades in the bag has them in one hand.
how a grenadier can throw 6 or 8 nades like in burst ? where does he find the time to pull the pin off of these 8 nades ?
i don't know if you ever had throw a grenade irl but you need to have it in one hand, pull the pin off with the other hand (only bad movies show guy who do that with his teeth without losing them), aim at the target (at least a minimum) and throw it. it takes the same amount of time as shooting with a gun.
as nades are "stackable", a grenadier don't need to reload.... totally unrealistic, i've never seen a man with a "grenade jacket" (or he would explose when he would be shooted in torso)
4 or 5 AP and no pile of nades in just one hand would be more credible.
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Good points philipos.
If you had to grab grenades out of your inventory, it would simulate pulling the pin in two ways: extra work AND extra AP.
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Good points philipos.
If you had to grab grenades out of your inventory, it would simulate pulling the pin in two ways: extra work AND extra AP.
Then to continue RL grenades, when you throw it, your victim will have both legs crippled, probably some hands crippled, and he'll probably die. So 1 grenade = kill.
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Don't think "reality" think "action movie," damnit! Grenades throw you around, and maybe knock people out. But of course NOBODY uses grenades as a burst fire weapon...
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I guess good damage boost and 7-8 AP needed to throw one grenade will make the things more balanced.
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Then to continue RL grenades, when you throw it, your victim will have both legs crippled, probably some hands crippled, and he'll probably die. So 1 grenade = kill.
it's not really a question of RL or not (or we wont play a post apo RPG) but a question of balance. throwing grenade is not faster than using a gun. so a gun user has disadvantage against a grenadier wich make the fight unbalanced.
all depends of if it's possible to disable the pile of nades in one hand or not. if so, 4 or 5 PA is ok (possibility to have 1 grenade in each hand and then no support weapon) because the fighter will have to make the action to pick up new ones in his bag.
but if not, then 6 or 7 (like a burst) will be more balanced.
Higher chance to cripple is not a crazy idea, that's what the grenades are made for, injuring a small group of fighter and making them less efficient/assertive if still alive.
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Or have a variable AP cost based on the distance you throw it, 15 Hexs=7AP, 1 Hex= 2 AP
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I think Izual's idea about 7-8 APs and dmg boost seems to be reasonable, but what about knockdown in frag granade? Should it stay? or due to dmg boost, should it be removed?
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I think Izual's idea about 7-8 APs and dmg boost seems to be reasonable, but what about knockdown in frag granade? Should it stay? or due to dmg boost, should it be removed?
Irrelevant once you don't throw in strings. Besides, the dmg boost would mean you'd be probably dead before the second one flies. And knockdown would look good on such a weapon.
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grenades should have knockback instead, use to scatter people
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I guess good damage boost and 7-8 AP needed to throw one grenade will make the things more balanced.
Comparing grenades to other weapons (rocket launcher)
Rocket Launcher
7AP, 35-100 damage, 40 range, must reload
Always keep that in mind. Grenades have the advantage of not needing to reload, but at the very best you have 15range. A reduction of 25 range is hardly worth the lack of reloading.
But really: Do we need another weapon with the exact same role as rocket launchers? I keep hearing people complain about grenades being overpowered but i wonder how much of a bandwagon fear this has become. I've had 2 friends complain to me about how overpowered grenade builds are: Only to find out they've never actually fought against, or fought as a grenadier. Simply the idea of "2ap grenades" scares them, but forget various factors, such as 15m range.
If grenades really are overpowered its simply because it has the ability to keep people on the ground more easily than other weapons. If there is to be a nerf, then simply remove fast shot's effect on them, and boost the damage of grenades enough that the DPS stays the same. Don't turn it into a near copy of rockets though, theres a lack of variety of builds as it is now...
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There should be added weapon like in Fallout Tactics : M79 grenade launcher or RPG - 7.
That would be new explosive weapon and one more smallgun more experienced in PvP
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imagine, an RPG-7 shot to the eyes. ::)
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i play as a grenadier, i have 2 AP to throw one nade, from my experience it should stay like this... because of the range, it indeed isnt easy with enemies...
i think Plasma grenades should have higher AP, but frag and molotov? no. (and please make damage higher ^^ lol). and only frag grenade should have knock back, but not 100% chance, but neither less than 50%
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yeah molotovs should have 3 ap as a base and plasma should have 5
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Frag grenades+flint+brahmin hide+rope=bomb :)
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Raising AP is an idea, but what if the formula was just tweaked to diminish damage (significantly) at a distance of > 10 hexes with the chance of no knockdown.
Of course sneak naders own, but it is very difficult to level a build like that so I give them some respect, I never get upset.
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big gunners and critical snipers own too, so please dont change anything :) and everybody says to me "WASTELAND IS HARSH" when i get killed by a BGer, and when i get grenades, everyone whines that its harsh, DUH!!!, blalblablalbla, fuck it.... i confused myself.
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yeah molotovs should have 3 ap as a base and plasma should have 5
why ? in fact it should be longer for molotov, you need to use a lighter (in you other hand then) to put fire to you molotov before throwing it.
i don't know the size of a hex ad the ratio used for the range of weapon but it's totally possible to throw a grenade (not a molotov) at 50/60 metres (with low accuracy of course) for a medium soldier. so maybe it's possible to increase the range if the AP used are increased too. depending of Force and of the armor wore (i've never try to throw a nade in metal armor but it should'nt be easy ^^)
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prefired molotovs methinks?