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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: wreese2u on August 01, 2012, 08:39:58 am
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Do you think Sniper Rifles need a buff? Damage is pretty low.
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hunting rifles need to be .223 calibre
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Sniper rifle is incredibly easy to get.
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Sniper rifle is incredibly easy to get.
But really shit damage, i dont use farmed Sniper rifles.
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But really shit damage, i dont use farmed Sniper rifles.
maybe farmed snipers are mainstream
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But really shit damage, i dont use farmed Sniper rifles.
Range is still 50, which is most in the game.
The fact that you don't use farmed snipers doesn't mean a thing. It's the same as saying superstims are rare because one does not steal them.
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Range is still 50, which is most in the game.
The fact that you don't use farmed snipers doesn't mean a thing. It's the same as saying superstims are rare because one does not steal them.
Im doing 60 damage without finesse when BGS do 100 damage just with a click
???
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Well, it's a barrage of bullets or rockets firing at you, I would expect more damage.
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Im doing 60 damage without finesse when BGS do 100 damage just with a click
???
60 DMG? Sniper Rifle with BC can easly make 100+ dmg and cripled arm, leg, eye with 1 click, so stop this whine and make better build!
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also sniper rifle have 50 hex range, while miniguns have 30-35
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I made sniper char with SD, makes nice damage :)
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I'm doing over 100 dmg crits to the eye and knocking people out without RBtE.
Call the wham!bulance for OP.
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All my snipers have been doing pretty poor damage to head/eyes even with better crit and RBtE. Arm and groin does more damage. Something needs adjusted, but the damage of the weapon itself is fine.
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now play as bg, has no skill, just shoot from a range distance, and you can do more damage than a aimed shot, that's for me is stupid
and i play usually like a big gunner, for me the big gunner are too imba, and the snipers need a buff
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Learn how to play with sniper and stop this whine. 50 HEXes allows two shots in to arm, then BG is dead. Who said that Sniper have to shot in eye/head? BG with his 7PE is blind like molerat vs 12PE sniper - use it.
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I use a x2 shot sniper and it has okay damage, lots of times still 100 damage shots and KO, without RBTE, not to mention other builds cripple/drop weapon. What should be buffed here is Iron grip, what a waste of a perk and a skill point!
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laser damage should be buffed too
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laser damage should be buffed too
Agree with you, my laser sniper character only does 4-9 damage after last update and no crits. If It crits they are very low criticals and I have 25 Crit chance so its pretty weird.
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Im only doing 60 damage? i play a x2 eyeshot sniper i have the same perks as everyone else wtf?
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Sniper rifle has appropriate damage(overall), thought i don't like how it's applied.
I wouldn't buff it, i'd change damage from 20-40 to 24-36, before someone jumps out of his pants that is not a nerf. That would make the sniper rifle damage more reliable, keeping the same average, having slightly lower values on the edge, but at the same time decreasing the gap between high/low end dmg, so more shots would tend toward the average, allowing for it to be more consistent, you would rely less on bypasses to do something.
This change is not necessarily needed, but that's something i would like to try out and test. :)
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How about: leave it as it is.
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Fine with me, though that change would decrease the gap between these two opinions, heh. ;D
only 60 damage
Learn how to play
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laser were fine. they were even little op. i dealed 150-220 aimed crits to head/eyes. snipers were fine 120-190 damage. all who want insta kill all the time they use hunting rifle or assault they should learn to play with snipers. somtimes i didnt deal any crits in 12 shoots in a row
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Im only doing 60 damage?
Yes. It's only you. The rest of people hit for 61.
IMO, the problem is not dmg of sniper rifle(buffed in compare to previous seasons) but aimed crit table. So another dmg buff is not a solution.
At the end I must say that I liked powerfull weapons from the begin of current season. Avangers, lasers, sniper rifles. Everything kicked ass and it was cool.
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You're pushing luck every time you run into something. It's totally useless in PvE (unless things have consistent crit tables, like instakills we knew from molerats), and too unreliable to allow you go one on one with others.
Still, snipers have to invest quite a lot in their action points and weapon skill, they deserve all the advantages they should have, including more movement. Seriously if you have 14AP junkie, you deserve to outrun 10/11AP guys by a bit, and totally leave those who were built for one shot (not much used, but appears quite often in PvE, which still should be relevant).
If devs can't fix this old problem, they should reduce AP cost of both aimed shots and several ranged weapons, including sniper rifle. No need to make guys not only choose perks that helps them with bad luck (better/more crit), but also have to fill everything else to actually use the weapon or play the role, and then get only one advantage, despite their invested a lot in several places.
Also it's debatable whether that extreme amount of unreliability is really needed - like the laser rifles doing damage as low as 10, while capable of doing over 15 times higher damage. Lowering the potential, while making it a bit safer can safe tears on both sides. But this cannot be done by just flattening the damage on the guns.
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sure remove ap for aimed shots...dude you just cant play sniper build. i had in this sesion 13ap 11pe 20% better rbte sniper and he kicked asses on rt pvp. if you dont know how to use it run with m60 ;D
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m60 has pretty low range if you are looking for long range combat.
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i had in this sesion 13ap 11pe 20% better rbte sniper and he kicked asses on rt pvp.
Yes, this kind of sniper was kickass before the update.
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sure remove ap for aimed shots...dude you just cant play sniper build. i had in this sesion 13ap 11pe 20% better rbte sniper and he kicked asses on rt pvp. if you dont know how to use it run with m60 ;D
That's not the point. Learn to read and comprehend - the point is that you don't get all the advantages you are supposed to get from upping your maximum AP, yet you still have to up it.
Normally you'd be able to run more per turn, which is indeed quite big thing, but none of this exists in the mode where the majority of game is played.
Reducing the AP cost would be good alternative to fixing movement speed, because it at least cures this disadvantage, which you never supposed to have.
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man u made my day...5-6ap aimed eye shots with sniper rifle ? in rt it would ruin cracked balance. same laser sniper would be laser spamer. deal with it or learn how to use it. who cares about tb? in tb no one use rocket launcher best pvp weapon in game.
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Even if sniper rifle got 5 dmg, it still would be used due to superior range and cripple mechanics.
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That's not the point. Learn to read and comprehend - the point is that you don't get all the advantages you are supposed to get from upping your maximum AP, yet you still have to up it.
Having maximum AP for a sniper doesn't determine whether it's successful, it's not a necessity. Common myth as always that maximum out of something is the only way, no it's not. The advantages are there, but at what cost, balance your build out and profit.
You're pushing luck every time you run into something.
Statistic is not luck, that involves values you just have to rely on and take in consideration when fighting, you can't expect to critically hit each time, but you can expect to line up enough shots, if you have proper positioning.
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No matter how you sell it, you still need more AP than usual. Which simply has to cost something with none in return. I still wonder why is it so hard to fix this broken mechanic.
Also statistics are useless in the game - you're not shooting on some giant boss for 5 minutes, but exchange few shots and bursts instead. Being that much unreliable requires you to have some luck to be successful. In long term statistics will balance, but every time it happens it's difference between life and death. And because the odds are lower than 1:1, you're most likely get frustrated anyway. It's far better to roll anything else, unless there's specifically need for one to have that kind of range. The type of character is simply not reliable enough for the type of player that this game needs the most.
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No matter how you sell it, you still need more AP than usual. Which simply has to cost something with none in return. I still wonder why is it so hard to fix this broken mechanic.
No, snipers actually requires as much action points as any other build, anything with 12 AP + BRoF is decent. Higher rate of fire is not a broken mechanic upon increasing the amount of action points, it is balanced by itself because each build profits from it the same, that includes the ability to use items at higher speed like SS witch is very important.
Also statistics are useless in the game - you're not shooting on some giant boss for 5 minutes, but exchange few shots and bursts instead. Being that much unreliable requires you to have some luck to be successful. In long term statistics will balance, but every time it happens it's difference between life and death. And because the odds are lower than 1:1, you're most likely get frustrated anyway. It's far better to roll anything else, unless there's specifically need for one to have that kind of range. The type of character is simply not reliable enough for the type of player that this game needs the most.
Chance is constant, luck is not a valid argument for it be incorrect, it may be inconsistent at certain time, but that doesn't mean it will always lead you to failure, it doesn't work that way in practice. Picture perfect isn't one on one situations, or few shots in matter of fact, from my own experience i can tell you that snipers do a lot more than few shots in larger confrontations, and the longer you can stay alive and keep shooting, have proper position i rely that i will do as much shots not how many of them will be critical hits, because that is always constant and you can't argue about that. These type of characters of what you are talking about are widely used in tactical combat and are considered a reliable tool to include it in the composition of builds witch are used to fight by a group of players. Snipers are not just a damage dealing, dice rolling cannons, they are awareness, range advantage, support, all these things what a normal big gunner isn't, that is an advantage by itself.
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Snipers are not just a damage dealing, dice rolling cannons, they are awareness, range advantage, support, all these things what a normal big gunner isn't, that is an advantage by itself.
They don't do damage often which means you can't use them alone, they always have to support some bigger group to KO or cripple enemies. I always played as damage sniper, that's why I think snipers are practically useless now.
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They aren't reliable to do constant damage, but that doesn't mean they can't do good damage and take in consideration the extra effects possible, sometimes it's really much better to drop a weapon than deal damage, that is again a tactical choice to aim for arms. Of course now they do worse than before, makes them less viable, sure, but i wouldn't exaggerate too much about that considering all in all.
you can't use them alone
I can actually argue about that, have you ever tried running around alone with a sniper in klamath? I haven't, but that could be fun. :) They sure aren't much of use in new reno, also they are pretty neat in TB what i heard from some, let's say experienced players.
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In the previous season my sniper killed 4 Rogues in Klamath... alone. Don't try to tell me this is possible now.
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The odds didn't favor you then and don't now, trying to repeat that is really pushing your luck either session.
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The way I see the role of a Sniper:
"Sniper can shoot people at 50 hex."
Ok, cool...
If his damage is low like people said, enemy just run out of sniper's range or go to some corner and it's all ok. The enemy totaly eliminates any chance to be killed.
In the best scenario, sniper sucessfuly cripple enemy's arm and drop his weapon. Still the enemy can just run away, "yay you got minigun".
And I don't even considering enemy with another weapon and high doc skills.
Is sad, thinking that Sniper Build (a build for combat) was lowered to a Support Build.
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And That is why u dont know how to use sniper. Good pvp gangs like cs,bbs,sot know how to use it and they dont aim in the arms or Legs but only eyes(exept finesse snipers). Sniper can lead whole gang or give quick info about spoted enemy. And yes he can deal big damage out of bg range.
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Of course bad gangs like hawks don't know how to use snipers, inactive cs member must come to this thread and teach us his ways. So pathetic.
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Is sad, thinking that Sniper Build (a build for combat) was lowered to a Support Build.
Yet, without them you are in a massive disadvantage when in comes to team fights, they play an important role and are as demanding to have as any other build when it comes to organized PvP. Going in team fights without snipers is like being blind.
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sniper rifle have good damage enough, and 50 hexes range so dont need any buff. look for crit modifiers first.
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lol
easily i have 100-150 criticals. knocking out almost everytime.
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No, snipers actually (...)
Items are thing that works, but it was always supposed to increase the movement distance over turn, you are NOT getting that. That means it is broken. Even more so, because there is an option to play the game so that it works - totally killing any consistency.
Chance is constant, luck is not (...)
This games still includes option to go around alone or have some fair game. Those builds cannot deliver it, because of their lack of reliability.
Also some weapons don't even give enough tactical advantage, while still being insanely unreliable (those things having visible projectiles, or lower tier guns). It does not matter how fair is this in some ideal form of PvP, when general state of QoL is on masochist level. I wouldn't ever try to do any harder encounter in CTB with single-shot based characters.
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Items are thing that works, but it was always supposed to increase the movement distance over turn, you are NOT getting that. That means it is broken. Even more so, because there is an option to play the game so that it works - totally killing any consistency.
Real time involves the same turns, you just experience them differently, because of that action point regeneration management is upside down the advantage is still there, but you just don't see it the same way. Character can be in motion always, be fluid as real time itself, but you aren't able to act once you drained your action points, AP has the same purpose as in turn base you just experience its effect differently.
In order to regenerate action points you have to be motionless, witch in practice let's a character with higher action points move farther before they can act, do the same action in the same time as a character with less action points who accordingly would be motionless at the same period of time the opponent would move allowing to accumulate only the same amount of action points in order to act at the same time, but not move because in that case the character with lower AP would accumulate less AP if both characters started to move at the same time before accumulating action points for a certain period of time.
Each player has its own time to do his turn before he can act again, the only difference is that all players can act at the same time because human reaction isn't simulated by sequence, encounters includes bots witch of course have superior reaction time to what the player human has, so that's why you feel punished for that. They spend and manage action points more effectively when it comes to speed, they begin to be motionless much quicker when they need to accumulate AP. There are no reaction flaws involved when it comes to npc's.
CBT - Continuous Turn Based mode = RT - Real Time mode
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The situation does not work when both of you move.
This can be best presented if you drop the idea of how long you sit on the place, and imagine that you constantly regenerate AP, and moving consumes it (as it should).
Now if you were running with 14AP max, for 100 hexes, it'd take 8 turns in TB, for 10AP char it's obviously 10 turns. But right now both chars are there in exactly same time.
This basically means that 14AP char lost two turns. He instead should be able to get about 20AP advantage over 10AP char by the time they reach the destination, but this is not happening, the regen kicks in for both in same time, so the character with 14AP gains only 4AP advantage, despite the fact, they've both been spending 100AP to get in there.
The only way to make this working is either make movement really consume AP at the regeneration rate and thus allow people with surplus AP to move faster or at least regenerate this surplus while moving if the speed is supposed to be the same.
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Can't drop the idea about regenerating action points while being motionless, it's impossible because you aren't regenerating when running in either case your trying to present, your trying to invent a new wheel. Furthermore, it doesn't work that way in practice like your example, trading action points is undeniable in combat and a character with higher action points will be able to move farther whilst accumulating the same action point amount to act as a character with lower who won't be able to travel the same distance to act the same time, that's how the speed is managed in real time combat, combat, take notice that outside of it it's pointless how much faster you run, and that's the situation your presenting. Running in RT combat means that each second you are loosing action points witch are regenerated by the opponent, none has wasted action points? "The turn" hasn't begun, yet, until then it's irrelevant just like in original fallout games where real time outside of combat didn't grant you any actual movement speed, like in Fallout Tactics it was managed just like it's on 2238. The concept is solid, you just want to add another factor witch in my opinion isn't necessary, you want to amplify the existing advantage, don't see how it helps with balance, nor worth the effort. Characters with high action points have enough advantage and in practice most builds out there have almost the same amount of action points give or take. Snipers was the reason why we started to talk, and snipers aren't imbalanced or weak because they aren't able to take full potential of agility like you think it should be.
and imagine that you constantly regenerate AP, and moving consumes it (as it should).
Impossible like i said, unless ... regeneration speed exceeds the speed it decreases upon running, you get an effect like this. It will result either in decrease/increase of AP while moving depending on how fast it increases/decreases, can increase and decrease at the same time, it will give one of those effects and not both or none effect at all, middle ground. Currently it's absolute zero, you are regenerating action points at the same speed it decreases while running, so basically you are not regenerating action points while moving at all and not loosing them either.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,19102.msg158763.html#msg158763
Not necessary after some time to think.
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No I don't want any amplification, I just want the game to be consistent and rules to be exact. The idea of sequence is never likely gonna make it, unless it's added as artificial lag. That's something that needs to be fixed in TB fights instead (for example they could use simultaneous turns to eliminate this), but this is borked in real time, working just fine in TB.
Combat is beyond exchanging shots, movement speed matters. Especially since it was one of the ways how could agile characters deal with bulky melees. Now you cannot ever outrun them, because you simply need to take the beating from them if you want to continue with your attacks. On other hand strong melee pests are virtually useless in RT, because they no longer retain their insane movement speed (eg. floaters, claws or aliens were quite deadly in SP games).
The choice between TB and RT should be purely on player habits, and should never be balance factor.
Currently it's absolute zero, you are regenerating action points at the same speed it decreases while running, so basically you are not regenerating action points while moving at all and not loosing them either.
Which in result equals to using up all the regeneration for movement, that's absolutely fine, if you get more movement for higher regeneration, which is not the case however.
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They don't do damage often which means you can't use them alone, they always have to support some bigger group to KO or cripple enemies. I always played as damage sniper, that's why I think snipers are practically useless now.
this.I can actually argue about that, have you ever tried running around alone with a sniper in klamath? I haven't, but that could be fun. :) They sure aren't much of use in new reno, also they are pretty neat in TB what i heard from some, let's say experienced players.
I did that a lot in the first weeks/months after the update and it was awesome since everyone had 1lk builds. As soon people started to roll with 5lk and snipers were nerfed, they are pretty much useless alone.
In any case, BG got buffed tremendously, snipers virtually not at all.
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Bullshit. I had Rvsty laser sniper 20% better rbt 11ap 216hp and he was uber duper. I remember when i used him first Time in large waves fight in gecko (cs,sot,bbs, havks) i killed 4-6 people before i get killed. Snipers are good in killing militia knocking bgs. There were fights when 2gauss snipers from sot were killing half of my gang and we couldnt find Them (it was during fight in residental) So snipers are fine.
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It depends what build you shoot. With new things like bonehead and man of steel, 290 max hp makes snipers very ineffective. Also a good player knows how to run and regenerae action point one at a time by running stop for 1 second, regernate action point run agian, regeneration next action point, in real time combat.
The way I see it is the sniper is the clean up build a big gunner can can get most builds down to very low HP (I'm not talking about one hexing) and the sniper does the final blow would be be the most effective and ideal way to use a sniper this session/update. But usually PvP is such a big mess and chaotic most just shoot the first thing they see.
In PvP its most effective to have builds that can kill at least one person than to cripple or just do a knock out, which is why sniper is not that great and people go for big gunners and lasers.
Snipers do kill, they can kill other snipers or builds that don't use bonehead, man of steal and no toughness, but since majority of players go with bonehead on their pvp builds this is why snipers seem so weak. There is alot of anti-sniper perks and traits to take.
Also porno, this isn't the begining of the session RBtE did a bonus to crit damage this was changed many updates ago this is another reason why snipers seemed more power then than it is now.
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Also porno, this isn't the begining of the session RBtE did a bonus to crit damage this was changed many updates ago this is another reason why snipers seemed more power then than it is now.
nobody took rbte tanyway as your critchance was lower. Plus, nobody knew that the very first rbte was bugged to begin with.
pre patch:
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) + 5 (mc) - 10 (helmet) = 75
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) - 7,5 (helmet/rbte) = 72,5
1lk targets
post patch(es):
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) + 5 (mc) - 20 (helmet) = 65
10 (lk) + 60 (eye multiplier) + 10 (emc) - 10 (helmet/rbte) = 70
5+lk targets
altered crit dmg calculation concerning DT (T888's quote)
altered crit tables (supposedly less bypasses)
sniper rifle have good damage enough, and 50 hexes range so dont need any buff. look for crit modifiers first.
lol
easily i have 100-150 criticals. knocking out almost everytime.
please leave this thread.
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Bullshit. I had Rvsty laser sniper 20% better rbt 11ap 216hp and he was uber duper. I remember when i used him first Time in large waves fight in gecko (cs,sot,bbs, havks) i killed 4-6 people before i get killed. Snipers are good in killing militia knocking bgs. There were fights when 2gauss snipers from sot were killing half of my gang and we couldnt find Them (it was during fight in residental)
Mentioning snipers before the update ::) mentioning militia :o yes now we can start talking about junk obtaining from barrels and farming sniper rifles from caves.
Basically everything was perfect before the update, which means
snipers are fine.
Marvellous conclusion indeed.
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nobody took rbte tanyway as your critchance was lower. Plus, nobody knew that the very first rbte was bugged to begin with.
That is just an assumption and not based on any fact. My first PvP build of the session was a laser sniper and I took RBtE and knew about it, the character planner was out before the wipe so I am sure many people knew about it and planned ahead.
But look I knew from the start this wasn't going to be a sniper session when I saw perks like man of steel and the trait bonehead.
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altered crit tables (supposedly less bypasses)please leave this thread.
Pre-update it was 60% to bypass if critically hit in eyes on 1 luck character, did tests then and did tests now, the results show 30%, previously there was no further improvement of protection past 5 luck witch would stop at approximately 30%, i have no idea what are the numbers on characters with luck > 5 right now or luck > 1 in matter of fact, it's easy to test that actually.
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hmm? why should i leave ? ;D
i'm not a 2238 expert but i know that my sniper have good criticals.
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That is just an assumption and not based on any fact. My first PvP build of the session was a laser sniper and I took RBtE and knew about it, the character planner was out before the wipe so I am sure many people knew about it and planned ahead.
so you took rbte instead of mc even though it was clearly inferior for half a damn year as the above table shows?
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John, at first all we had was this description, that was at the very first days of wipe and players who get their builds capped at first days had to make some blind decisions and i made one too ...
Description: You are able to hit your target with unerring accuracy. Helmets are no protection against you!
Doesn't it sound appealing? Helmets are no protection! How can you not take that perk? ;D
and it reduced both critical chance modifier and power, witch wasn't all that bad, i was glad that i didn't do a wrong choice at first, but it didn't last long and Solar ruined everything for a long time. It was either more critical chance, health points, action points better choice a long time, but it didn't screw my gauss build completely. :)
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so you took rbte instead of mc even though it was clearly inferior for half a damn year as the above table shows?
Agian assumption you do not my build how would you know if I took more critical or not? T-888 is talking about bypasses more criticals perks give more of a chance to cause a critical not every critical is going to be a bypass. RBtE is a necessary perk because we now have critical defense on helmets it has always been useful I do not know where you think its useless its necessary for any eye/head shooter PvP build. Otherwise if you shoot some guy in 100% combat helmet your criticals won't roll as high and you do shittier damage -20 on critical table is a big step between doing x2 damage with knockdown or x3 damage with crippling effecting or knock out.
Bonhead gives +10 critical defense to heads and eyes, the top helmet is 100% combat helmet with +20 critical defense, man of steel gives +10 critical defense to all parts that can be targeted. So that is -30 on a critical roll total to targets shooting somebody with these 3 things how is RBtE useless? It is necessary to shoot somebody with full crit defense perks and traits. Your target well have -20 crit defense on head with right between the eyes and full perks but its better than having -30 on critical table and doing a shittier critical. Also not every build has bonehead, man of steel, or use a 100% combat helmet.
If you do the math for somebody just wearing a 100% combat helmet with no man of steel or bonehead that is only -10 critical defense if you shoot this person with RBtE.
This session is all about countering builds if you want a big gunner to do good vs snipers and laser snipers you bring a full crit defense build, if you are trying to kill tanks you bring a crit burster the game has become more measures and counter measures than just playing one uber build for every PvP battle. Everything has a weakness, there is no ultimate build, and sadly snipers well never be this session, 50 hex range has its advantage it has its uses but its not the greatest build to mass swarm with these days becuase so much has been programed into the game to lower critical rolls.
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The only way to make this working is either make movement really consume AP at the regeneration rate and thus allow people with surplus AP to move faster or at least regenerate this surplus while moving if the speed is supposed to be the same.
This makes the most sense; in turn-based a high AP character can move and shoot, however in the current real time set-up you'd get one shot off before being wailed upon by a mob of twenty gangers--NPCs who btw have the uncanny ability to lock speeds with you no matter what your AP is.