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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: T-888 on July 24, 2012, 04:03:18 pm
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Simple enough, it's a "feature" that isn't balanced at the moment, due to recent changes for damage multiplier you get bypassed for 650 instead of 800, yay. The cost for protection is too high, requires a lot of S.P.E.C.I.A.L stat luck to have whatsoever reliable protection against it, common builds just simply doesn't benefit from luck as much to involve it in their builds, if there would be perk requirements that would help a lot, but the problem would still exist as even with 5-6 luck the bypasses are just too frequent for how powerful they are.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Vorian_/Untitled-3.png)
I'd suggest 26% on 1 luck, 18% on 2, 12% on 3, 8% on 4 , 4% on 5 and having 6 or higher luck would grant you immunity.
Read, vote, respond. Thank you for your time.
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Solar had talked about making bypass happen more often when your armor is deteriorated instead of dropping the DR. With a perfect state armor chance of bypass should be low even with 1 luck (15%?) and even with 10 luck a 40% armor would bypass pretty often.
Though I would be fine with simply lowering the chance like T-888 suggest.
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Indeed, Solar planned to do that, but i don't see how that would go together with current high bypass chance, in case of those changes armor wouldn't actually provide protection only enhance vulnerability at a certain point depending on armor state.
I was thinking about the actual values, somehow i ended up with those numbers and the reason for them i think is because i support the choice and consequence principle, upon lowering a stat to a certain level it should leave you with a disadvantage, in this case lower bypass protection. Though i think the gap is too high at the moment as many builds just hardly benefits from luck, except the bypass chance. I wanted the values to mirror a state where the player character doesn't feel all too much punished for low luck, but at the same time make it worth while to increase it by few points gaining close to an immunity, whether in comparison with current 60% with 1 luck or 30% with 5 (in both cases just unreasonable).
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Those bypasses made playing with luck1 build in pvp rather pointless. Critbursts will instakill you, normal crits hurt like hell.
Perks and drugs like toughness and psycho shouldn't be able to be bypassed.
Top armors could have guaranteed bypass resistance. For example 20% for ca. That means that on top of the actual bypass damage, -20% modifier is aplied. Wrecking the armor would reduce the defense.
This way a luck1 guy with psycho and doubletoughness would have 30% resistance vs bypasses against normal damage bypasses. If he wears CA, 50% and 20% vs all other.
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Those bypasses made playing with luck1 build in pvp rather pointless. Critbursts will instakill you, normal crits hurt like
No they don't, when killing a player with a critical hit it doesn't show if it was a bypass, so your observation is incorrect most probably. It's just a bug, when you see these 600/300~ critical hits etc. etc. take notice they don't show up as bypasses in chat, but that is false normal critical bursts aren't able to do such amount of damage. Toughness/psycho builds have whatsoever no problem dealing with LSW normal crit-bursts, even survive avenger minigun critical hits, if you aren't sure i'll be on mirc later, we can go test that.
Top armors could have guaranteed bypass resistance. For example 20% for ca. That means that on top of the actual bypass damage, -20% modifier is aplied. Wrecking the armor would reduce the defense.
There's a reduction of critical power modifier on armors already, for CA it's 10% and it applies to all critical hits, bypass with 20% or without, it's going to be a insta kill. Better to just alter the frequency of them.
Perks and drugs like toughness and psycho shouldn't be able to be bypassed.
Implementing something like that could be tricky as 5mm AP/223. ammunition ignores -35%/-20% DR by default, so upon bypassing the DR modifiers on ammo should be ignored as well, just a mismatch of mechanics.
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The only way going to fix this gattling laser critical is if they lower the damage laser does to blue suits. A gatling laser hits a blue suit for 200-250 damage, the max multiplier is 3 now, so that is 200 damage x 3 which gives 600. Luck does not affect how often a character gets crit bursted/bypassed it just causes criticals to be more deadly when they do crit and bypass. Luck isn't the ultimate defense vs criticals that is a false sense of security if that is what you think.
Its more about damage resist the more damage resist you have to the attack type the less damage the critical well do when it comes to defending agiasnt crit bursters. For example you wear metal armor mk2 average damage gatling laser does to it is 40-60, you multiply that by 3 that is 120-180 top damage on critical now. If it does not bypass its balanced you just happened to get unlucky irl and somebody bypassed your armor these don't happen as frequently, so the average critical well be 120-180, its better balance than what it was.
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Sounds like you have really low luck
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Vorian_/Untitled-3.png)
Dumping luck will hurt against crit bursters
It's not a sense of security, it's actual game mechanics, go learn the game better, then come back to discuss.
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It's not a sense of security, it's actual game mechanics, go learn the game better, then come back to discuss.
Its called a critical table learn the mechanics of it before you go crying about about being hit by a gatling laser critical.
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That chart shows actual chance of getting bypassed from critical hits depending on your luck. I'm not crying about anything, but you sure are talking in the wrong direction. It's posted by a developer of this game, go argue with him.
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That chart shows actual chance of getting bypassed from critical hits depending on your luck. I'm not crying about anything, but you sure are talking in the wrong direction. It's posted by a developer of this game, go argue with him.
And where was I argueing and disagreeing with this? Even with 10 luck a gatling laser bypass is still going to do 600 damage if somebody gets a really high crit roll. Blue suit NO DAMAGE RESIST TO LASER 200+ BY GATLING LASER DAMGE MULTIPLIED BY 3 = 600 its kiddy math. There is man of steel perk to take for lower luck builds.
Jovanka posted that the damage multiplier to torso was reduced to somewhere around x3 for a high crit roll.
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Johnny One Hex , youre totally wrong about mechanics and also we dont give a fuck about bs getting lazored.
Lets face it, even if the chance to bypass is 0.01%, it will happen and youll be damn pissed if that happens to you. So either completely remove bypasses or make them a lot weaker (frequency has nothing to do with them imo)
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Then luck becomes an ultimate dump-stat and there is no consequence of dropping it, critical chance is not necessary for most builds.
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We can find other uses for LK. Chance to receive crit, power of crit etc.
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Chance to critically hit is the same frequency that alters bypass chance indirectly( lower chance to crit, lower chance to bypass), power of critical hit is altered by armors and perks already and as you see that's quite inefficient. Buff critical power modifiers too much, say goodbye to snipers.
Maybe there is something i haven't thought about, so if someone has some ideas, i'm all ears.
It just seems altering bypass chance directly is the most simplest and easiest way, it's just about changing values not implementing new features or twisting existing ones.
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But problem with bypass is that they are fcking strong, instakill, while on the other hand, normal crit can be successfuly mitigated by various means. It was just an example, Im sure this marvelous community can think up something.
Critical power can be set only to reduce uncalled shots, so snipers should do just fine.
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Johnny One Hex , youre totally wrong about mechanics and also we dont give a fuck about bs getting lazored.
Lets face it, even if the chance to bypass is 0.01%, it will happen and youll be damn pissed if that happens to you. So either completely remove bypasses or make them a lot weaker (frequency has nothing to do with them imo)
Here you go read this thank you. It has happened to me plenty of times to me and it was worse before this update. Its bull shit yes but there is a mechanic and math behind this and not "oh my godz criticalz I have 10 luck why diz happun itz must be bugz and abuse!?."
http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables
The table is differnt in this game but that is the basics of how these things work. There is nothing changed about this mechanics just numbers. And all we know is that its x3 for a 100+ crit roll and now we know that it has chance to bypass. Gee these critical thingies sure are complicated! We have -crit modifiers on armors and perks for defense agiasnt criticals. Take man of steel +10 critical defense, attacks well crit roll lower on your character, solution who would have thunk it?
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There is nothing changed about this mechanics just numbers.
How do you know that? Do you develop this game?
Date Registered:
Today at 06:26:07 pm
Man you are so experienced, we should listen to you and rely on your extensive knowledge of the game.
And all we know is that its x3 for a 100+ crit roll and now we know that it has chance to bypass.
Simple logic, a developer showed a chart where it clearly shows that there is 0% chance to get bypassed if you have 10 luck, roll has no effect for bypassed torso shots.
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How do you know that? Do you develop this game?
Date Registered:
Today at 06:26:07 pm
Man you are so experienced, we should listen to you and rely on your extensive knowledge of the game.
Without going into technical details, if you do a critical shot on a human and you didn't aim any body part, the damage will be slightly lower now than before (for example damage*3 not damage*4).
I am somebody has been here for a while I am just using a sock puppet account because I want to post and not wait for my reply to come up and nobody read it when the threads goes 10 pages.
But you always do this T-888 I try to explain from my knowledge stand point even to you as an enemy of my faction and you say basically STFU noob you know nothing. You always do this and wonder why nobody likes you. Time to register a new account because I'll probably get blocked agian as usual for posting this.
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Then it seems youre either not wanted here, or youre afraid to show your real identity. How can we discuss something with you, if were not sure how much experience you got ?
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I am somebody has been here for a while I am just using a sock puppet account because I want to post and not wait for my reply to come up and nobody read it when the threads goes 10 pages.
Does it say something about roll affecting bypass? I will start showing random quotes for some mechanics too hoping it will prove my point, though i'm not sure what are you even talking about.
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Does it say something about roll affecting bypass? I will start showing random quotes for some mechanics too hoping it will prove my point, though i'm not sure what are you even talking about.
Well if I am completely wrong then I would like to know where I am wrong in my understanding of criticals. But yes lower luck does = well get bypassed more often than having more luck that is what started this yes? But critical bypasses are going to happen no matter what your luck is.
You can defend agiasnt these type of critical rolls with man of steel it well lower a persons critical roll on your character so instead of x3 damage it might only do x1.5 with man of steel or some shit. Not every critical on the table is a bypass, I would assume the bypass would be with a higher roll, so defenses like man of steel in theory should not cause somebody to roll bypasses on you with a critical burster unless you have lower luck as you stated. Maybe 1 luck man of steel may prevent these bypasses now I have not tested it but its my theory from my understanding of this game
10 or 1 a bypass is a bypass, but 1 luck well cause more bypasses to happen, I am not argueing that. Point I was making unless the gattling laser damage gets lowered on blue suits or some how blue suits get laser resist they are going to bypass for 600 damage.
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Well if I am completely wrong then I would like to know where I am wrong in my understanding of criticals. But yes lower luck does = well get bypassed more often than having more luck that is what started this yes? But critical bypasses are going to happen no matter what your luck is.
Does this guy just came here to troll me?
False, incorrect, wrong, go try and test it out, better just go play the game.
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Does this guy just came here to troll me?
False, incorrect, wrong, go try and test it out, better just go play the game.
Then how does this work Mr. Know it all? Please do tell if you do not explain then I well assume ignorance.
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There's a reduction of critical power modifier on armors already, for CA it's 10% and it applies to all critical hits, bypass with 20% or without, it's going to be a insta kill. Better to just alter the frequency of them.
But critbursters all have spray and pray.
Even if you decrease the frequency of the bypasses, gatling laser will surely instakill everyone with bypass and likely will 3brd avenger and m60 aswell. It'd be better for gameplay to get rid of instakills, no matter how rare they are.
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But critbursters all have spray and pray.
Even if you decrease the frequency of the bypasses, gatling laser will surely instakill everyone with bypass and likely will 3brd avenger and m60 aswell. It'd be better for gameplay to get rid of instakills, no matter how rare they are.
But spray n pray ignores armor crit modifier, man of steel gives an extra +10 crit defense and doesn't count as armor. This could be a viable solution to this problem.
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Tests, reading forum, confirming information by tests and actual in game experience.
Silent death was popular once with plasma grenades, i assume you know that. I realized sneakers never did a bypass on 10 luck characters, also a developer that makes this game showed a chart where it's clearly shown that with 10 luck it's 0%. Now why are you trying to force unconfirmed info as some truth? Have doubts? I assure you, you can go clear them with making simple tests that the chance to get bypassed is none existent with a character that has 10 luck, that is only for torso shots, for all other body parts it's different because characters with 10 luck get bypassed in all other body parts, values shown in the charts are equivalent to what it's in game.
I'll be damned.
But critbursters all have spray and pray.
Even if you decrease the frequency of the bypasses, gatling laser will surely instakill everyone with bypass and likely will 3brd avenger and m60 aswell. It'd be better for gameplay to get rid of instakills, no matter how rare they are.
There is critical chance modifier and critical power modifier, as far as i know spray and pray reduces only chance modifier.
The values i suggested make it possible to gain close to an immunity from bypasses, you invest points into luck and profit, choices and consequences(6 luck for immunity, just like the same requirement for perks previous session). No matter if it's a bypass from gatling gun, minigun, light support weapon, m60 that's going to be an insta-kill.
As i said, remove bypass protection from luck entirely = new dump-stat, no consequences. Is that supposed to be better?
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I think you just want to make power big gunner without conquences, you take lower luck face the conquences its balance. I think it was better when bonus range damage required 6 luck. But basically you want less bypasses with 1 luck, or suggesting to throw this away entirely so you can get your 240-280 hp x2 burst 3brd and not have any weaknesses.
This is like saying I think I should have 100 carry weight no matter what my strength is or it should be 50 hex sight no matter what my perception is.
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I think you just want to make power big gunner without conquences, you take lower luck face the conquences its balance. I think it was better when bonus range damage required 6 luck. But basically you want lower bypasses with 1 luck, or suggesting to throw this away entirely so you can get your 240-280 hp x2 burst 3brd and not have any weaknesses.
are you kidding me?
I was thinking about the actual values, somehow i ended up with those numbers and the reason for them i think is because i support the choice and consequence principle, upon lowering a stat to a certain level it should leave you with a disadvantage, in this case lower bypass protection. Though i think the gap is too high at the moment as many builds just hardly benefits from luck, except the bypass chance. I wanted the values to mirror a state where the player character doesn't feel all too much punished for low luck, but at the same time make it worth while to increase it by few points gaining close to an immunity, whether in comparison with current 60% with 1 luck or 30% with 5 (in both cases just unreasonable).
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IMO only sniper builds(aimed shots) should be able to bypass, they depend on crits to deal dmg where burst weapons are supposed to be regular, reliably high amounts of dmg.
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Maybe there is something i haven't thought about, so if someone has some ideas, i'm all ears.
How about keeping current system as it is, and adding a new benefit to luck?
Luck*5=damage reduced in %
Say a laser gatling smacks you for 400 crit bypass, you got 1 luck and get 20 points less damage, still die.
5 luck? 100 points off, 3 lifegivers and you can be stimmed back to health.
7 luck, 140 points off, 2 lifegivers can be stimmed back, 3 lifegivers stim themselves.
Take Dead Man Walking and your chances improve a bit more.
I think of this as implemented vs crits in all its forms, but added vs all damage, could make fights longer, low HP PvP like snipers with 10 luck could survive a bit longer with crit bypass protection and 50% damage reduction.
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Maybe replace current luck protection with:
Max number of bullets which can bypass armor per burst/shot:
Random from (6 - Luck/2) to (21-Luck*2)
Luck/2 rounded down.
In case of critical bypass:
Character with luck 1 could be bypassed by 6-19 bullets per burst/shot (12-13 on average)
Character with luck 6 could be bypassed by 3-9 bullets per burst/shot (6 on average)
Character with luck 10 could be bypassed by one bullet per burst/shot (just 1)
So low luck would be still bad against critical bursts, but critical burst damage would be nerfed in this
case and high luck would protect against critical burst bypasses. Both could not avoid sniper bypasses.
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Maybe replace current luck protection with:
Max number of bullets which can bypass armor per burst/shot:
Random from (6 - Luck/2) to (21-Luck*2)
Luck/2 rounded down.
Luck*5=damage reduced in %
Both suggesting a damage nerf. Players are concerned about just changing frequency, so be it. I agree, it's not the most effective way to just change raw chance, that's just the easiest solution.
How are you going replace it? I don't understand, because if bypassed bullets are calculated in every critical hit, that's like just increasing overall damage of critical hits, there needs to be some kind of frequency, as for when at what shot the critical hit is considered as bypass, then the calculation of bullets bypassed.
So low luck would be still bad against critical bursts, but critical burst damage would be nerfed in this
case and high luck would protect against critical burst bypasses. Both could not avoid sniper bypasses.
Critical bursts wouldn't be nerfed, only bypasses, think about it that's the desired effect. That feature just shouldn't be applied for single shot and be reliant only on pure frequency, including grenades, pistols etc. etc.
Can't replace it, can add and merge it, if it's possible.
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How about 2 rolls when you attack, and use whichever is lesser?
For example, critburster attacks, roll 1 is a 3x crit bypass and roll 2 is just a regular hit, roll 2 will be used. Whenever both rolls hit a 3xcrit bypass will be the only time it will happen.
It will greatly reduce frequency of major crits, and yeah, its a crit nerf. But any method to change frequency will be a crit nerf.
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The same coin can be looked upon from two sides. Nerf? I say balance.
Roll already determines the power of a critical hit including bypass, since it's the same critical hit only it ignores a large portion of resistances available for the player. When you hear the word roll think chance, probability. If ,for example, roll 90-100 would grant you bypass out of 1 to 100 random roll. It's basically the same thing as reducing frequency directly without the intervention of roll, the exact effect can be simulated- lower chance to score a bypass.
Damage can be altered by reducing the damage multiplier upon certain rolls, for example, roll 1-20 is 1x damage, 21-40 is 1.5x, 40-61 2x and so on. It's like that already.
My suggestion is to reduce the frequency of bypasses, since those type of critical hits are the ones that does insta-kills and aren't balanced, i don't see normal critical hits an issue anymore because of the recent changes for damage multipliers. Reducing purely damage multipliers to balance out bypasses would make critical bursters useless overall due to the damage reduction, why do we need that? Critical bursters have their place and i think they should be viable, just some features has to be balanced appropriately.
I think Silent death had it's place in the game, just instead of thinking solutions how to make it work in a reasonable manner, someone decided that it is easier to just fix it, make it impossible to use grenades with the perk at all. That's equivalent to just removing bypasses from bursts completely and that's stupid.
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Like I said earlier, frequency is not a good thing to balance, because either you cant do a bypass at all due to bad luck and thus, doing overally low dmg, or you just roflstomp someone with instakill => High spikes of damage.
I like Jovankas suggestion, only number of bullets should be taken from % of each bullets fired from a particular weapon (bypasses are not tied only to avengers)
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I like Jovankas suggestion, only number of bullets should be taken from % of each bullets fired from a particular weapon (bypasses are not tied only to avengers)
I like it too, but there needs to be frequency when the % of bullets are calculated as bypassed, when the shot is considered as bypass. Can't do it on every hit, major DPS boost in that case. Whether you like it or not, but frequency is a part of bypasses, it is impossible to make bypasses occur without some kind of chance involved, can make them constant, it's still frequency.
Like I said earlier, frequency is not a good thing to balance, because either you cant do a bypass at all due to bad luck and thus, doing overally low dmg, or you just roflstomp someone with instakill => High spikes of damage.
Frequency is one of the things that needs to be balanced, i already said that it's not the most efficient way how to seal the deal.
Doing overall low damage? I don't follow. Bypasses are that does too much damage currently, problem exists within their chance to occur, more bypasses = higher damage overall dealt. Less bypasses ... come on you must understand that. Lowering the damage for bypasses wouldn't touch normal critical bursts, witch are in my opinion strong enough at the moment. Bypasses currently are like adding fuel to to an existing, burning fire.
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To get some put information right.
The previous unaimed criticals had 2-3x multiplier. Now they have 1,5-2x multiplier.
Also about the chances in bypasses on unaimed shots depending on luck
(note: the Guy in CA does not have Man of Steel):
(https://i.imgur.com/OkCYR.png)
So with LK6 you have aprox 12% chance to experience unaimed bypass when critically hit in CA and attacker has Better Crits. That makes around 3% chance to get bypass critical and 22% chance for normal crit if attacker has 25% critchance. (also on next update bypasses should be visible in log even on lethal criticals, so it will be sure if the hit was bypass or not)
Imho the primary reasons that among the BG(lasor gatling) builds the crit build is most viable choice right now is:
1) on first three perks the reasonable choices are Toughnesses(which give protection only against normal damage type), Weapon Handling and Critical perks (which give a chance to drastically increase damage even to the Toughness chars).
2) The fact that there are no luck requirements on toughness (nor BRD) which created a delusion that luck is dump stat for tanks and thus LK1 chars are easily killed by the critbursters.
3) No inteligence requirements for BROF thus both tanks and damage dealers have 2 or 3 int and lots of spare points to give into luck or other stats.
In the end when creating an anti-critburster tank you end up with high luck and toughnesses... so you can just replace toughnesses with the critical perks and have crit burster instead, because you have protection against bypasses with your high luck.
Imho one of the simpliest solutions to the problem is either make different crittable for critical bursts and singleshot unaimed and alter multipliers or bypass chances, the Jovanka's suggestion with partial bypass, or maybe both.
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It's true until other information is provided. :)
This information had to be provided like ages ago, now need to process the information to conclude the problem.
bypass chances, the Jovanka's suggestion with partial bypass, or maybe both.
Both in my opinion. That i already understood, partial bypass balances out the damage dealt, lower frequency due to normal critical bursts already doing a lot of damage.
hahah ;D it seems Solar provided quite a sloppy chart. :)
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imo nonaimed crits are fine since last update. Quite powerfull but ok.
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1HKO's still happen, insta-kills should be removed from this game. I don't want normal critical bursts to be less powerful, they already got their fair share of balancing medicine.
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You dont seem to understand, what I was trying to say, that frequency shouldnt be too high nor too low. The crit. damage is what matters. If you set frequency too low, you would expect to have high crit damage, in other words, instakill, while on the other hand, setting high frequency of crit bursts would expect you to have very low damage.
Frequency and damage should be set somewhere inbetween, where you rely on crits and bypasses to do some serious spike damage, but not that you instakill every other guy on the battlefield.
You should have a choice, either you go with no crits and thus, pure dps should be higher OR you can go with crits, where you might surprise some enemies with high spike damage, but your dps should be lower.
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But the whole point of this is to make critical bypasses occur less and do not make insta-kills, that means decreasing frequency and damage dealt by them, if the frequency is low but the damage the same as high as it is right now, you said it yourself.
Lets face it, even if the chance to bypass is 0.01%, it will happen and youll be damn pissed if that happens to you.
That is my opinion that bypasses should be a rarity, and they shouldn't do insta-kills because normal critical bursts are strong enough.
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I dont mind if critical bypasses occur frequently, what matters is damage, thats what I said.
Now they literally instakill, so even if you set the lowest frequency, it wont change much imo.
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Actually in both cases it wouldn't be so bad, to be honest.( don't misunderstand me, low chance+ low damage or same chance + low damage) So i guess that's a decision to make for developers, as well i hope the staff understands what needs to be done, at least can be done. :)
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If you set low chance + low damage, build wont be viable anymore. I want to preserve build variability as long as it doesnt hurt overall gameplay.
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I don't think low chance + low damage would be game breaking for critical bursters, normal critical bursts are powerful enough without the bypasses happening all to often with
low lower damage. Unless your opinion differs how powerful their normal critical burst are at the moment, let's not go into hyperboles too much. :) That usually leads to pissing contests of best builds and what not. ;D