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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: avv on June 23, 2012, 11:26:58 am
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Being tired of correcting false statements in various threads I'll just state here the critical flaws in gameplay that need fixing to bring back players and then be quiet about it in other threads.
It'll be short and extended reasonings will be left out. If someone disagrees we can discuss here.
These issues require fixing asap (apart from server stability):
1. Silent death grenades.
Quick solution could to remove the autocrit and turn it into increased damage bonus of for example +30% dmg. Or normal hit with guaranteed bypass. It could work with smgs again allowing more variety for sneaking.
2. Critbursts for bg and gatling laser.
Too powerful. A helpful fix would be that you simply can't make critbursts with bg, only with rocket. Burst should be for constant reliable damage, not random instakill.
3. Tc. Hopefully there's already a plan how to fix this. Just needed to mention it, but it doesn't need to be discussed. Raises too much racket.
Why tc as third? Because believe me, even with working tc the pvp is going to suck if critbursts and silent death grenades aren't fixed.
Those who care can discuss.
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How about a game that you can actually play? Just kidding, nobody really wants that. We want fish! and battle brahmin! moar skins...... lots more sis-cuddling rp adventure! Just ask whatever Jovanka wants, that pretty well sums up what 98% of the current server (when it's up) population (you know, the dozen or so idlers in NCR) wants. If your idea or concept is inane and basically retarded, rest assured others playing this game will welcome your suggestions. All the real reasons as to why this current session lick donkey dong ballz was already stated about 3 hours after wipe and have been reposted and committee discussed multiple times. TBH about half (or three quarters) of the population should just be muted and neutered as their wishes of fallout game design are just retarded. If in the real world people need to understand why rule by the average isn't optimal, just imagine if every joe sixpack welfare families votes actually equaled the same "voting" power for change in a system as doctors, scholars, businessmen and basically accomplished individuals. At best, that is the undeniable principle of democracy, thank god there is no such implementation of that on the planet, nor ever has, or ever will be....
Run by retards, for retards! Join the retard republic of morons...
Now when are we going to get to buy houses and fish?
Now as for Sd-naders and critbursters, boo fucking hoo!
the people that play the bg badasses are all pissy because a guy with 2 plasma nades can kill his immortal bg tank that worked super duper before, let me get you a box of tissues to dry your tears. Amazingly the "solution" given is merely coincidental to having plasma grenades nerfed just enough so your uber high hp BG tank can survive :)
Critbursters get to get a random crit (around 1 in 5) to maybe blow you into pieces that makes other bg immortal tanks cry because they don't have time to hit their super stim shortcut, pass the tear absobant material, boo hooos again. The basic BG strategy of rushing in 1 hexxing and hitting health potions (super stims) might not work..... awwww boo hoo butthurtz. Amazingly the "solution" given is merely coincidental to having crit bursts nerfed just enough so your uber high hp BG tank can survive long enough to pop another super stim :)
Where's the outrage of Snipers being OP this session? Don't bother answering it, it was a rhetorical question......
Or bombers for that matter. Or just about any build that happens to kill your build, obviously that one is OP :) It's true there are tons of sd naders, I don't think it's all that balanced but I don't think 287hp x2 toughness bg tanks are all that balanced either, I can only bet that getting your tank melted by 2 or 3 plasma nades really pisses most PK Apes off, badly.... at best half the PK no lifers are going to end up upset for one reason or another, butthurtz overflowing from defeat. You all can't be "winners", actually you're all "losers" (I acknowledge my loserdom) but some day maybe you'll figure that out.
TC, is just fucking retarded, that must be why it was approved. If camping the toilets for hours on end was the devs intentions of TC, my hats off to them, mission accomplished....
Why not throw in to the mix fast relogging your whole army of alts? One of them has to win, right?
P.S. Thanks Jovanka, I love my mutant skin!
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Good points avv.
I would only add some solution against fast relogs in PvP.
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TC is unfixable broken. We changed the system so often over the past years and people always complained about it. If it would be me, I would just remove it and be done. It just doesn't work, players will never do what this system was supposed to lead them to: Defend a town from attackers and attackers alone, leaving "peaceful folks" doing their stuff. But you can't force players into such behavior. It can and will always be abused or workarounded, simply because players can. It is as broken as DayZ's "work in a team!"-survival mechanic is broken and won't ever work.
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Why not have 'TC' in places where you got nothing else to do anyway?
Like randomly spawned base-like locations. Purpose is the 'TC' locker of course.
And just by the way, here's something to SD thing - the perk should be compared to other perks, so that everyone would see how broken is it. As it is now, this is the only perk that entirely changes the balance of single approach, and possibly dictates game style. Other perks allow you to do something better, but it's never day/night difference. This should be changed.
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Actually crit bursters are not soo bad just compare to shitty resistance againist bypass its op :)
Stop making chars with 1 lk and invest into man of steel ;)
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Now as for Sd-naders and critbursters, boo fucking hoo!
the people that play the bg badasses are all pissy because a guy with 2 plasma nades can kill his immortal bg tank that worked super duper before, let me get you a box of tissues to dry your tears. Amazingly the "solution" given is merely coincidental to having plasma grenades nerfed just enough so your uber high hp BG tank can survive :)
The point is balance. In last session sneak vs bg balance was leaned towards the fact that bg can't see the sneak but sneak can't kill the bg just like that. But now a sneak without hardly any equipment can take out a bg just fine with minimal risk.
When the situation is like that, it simply isn't worthwhile to enter anywhere as a bg because enemy can just send sd sneaks forever. At the moment players almost have to agree with the enemy team not to use such builds to have fun with other builds.
You talk about muting people because their wishes are so far fetched, yet you don't seem to understand yourself how badly sd has affected the general pvp. But we can talk this through, there's not much else to do than talk anyway.
Critbursters get to get a random crit (around 1 in 5) to maybe blow you into pieces that makes other bg immortal tanks cry because they don't have time to hit their super stim shortcut, pass the tear absobant material, boo hooos again. The basic BG strategy of rushing in 1 hexxing and hitting health potions (super stims) might not work..... awwww boo hoo butthurtz. Amazingly the "solution" given is merely coincidental to having crit bursts nerfed just enough so your uber high hp BG tank can survive long enough to pop another super stim :)
All critbursts do is that they provide randomness in area where randomness doesn't belong, which is competitive scene.
Besides, basic bg strategy in hinkley might be onehexing and doing rambo but in wasteland it's working as team, maintaining consistency and focus firing single targets. You can try to take superstims when you're being blasted by 3 guys at the same time.
I don't think it's all that balanced but I don't think 287hp x2 toughness bg tanks are all that balanced either
Yes they are rather unbalanced. One good gatling laser, m60 or avenger crit and it's dead. Plus if you take 2x toughness you won't be critburster or have to trade away some very good perks.
TC is unfixable broken.
Unfortunate if you think so. In the end all it needs to do is to encourage players to enter and remain inside an unsafe location. Otherwise we will all camp worldmap forever.
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We changed the system so often over the past years and people always complained about it.
Previous TC system needed improvements, countless steps of progression were provided by players, instead of doing just that, your re-inventing a wheel each time. I can't tell that TC is in a working state this session, it would be a false statement if i did and your saying the concept of TC just doesn't work?
I'm sorry and no offense, but something here doesn't a ring a bell for me.
It just doesn't work, players will never do what this system was supposed to lead them to: Defend a town from attackers and attackers alone, leaving "peaceful folks" doing their stuff.
That was working perfect last session, leave peaceful folks doing there stuff? What are you talking about? There are guarded towns for that, in north players must be aware of the danger. Most towns aren't guarded, TC or not it is free to roam the cities and kill everything that moves, how is TC responsible for that?
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Server needs fixing, constant lag spikes, crashes, and some new Blueprints need to come in.
Good points avv.
I would only add some solution against fast relogs in PvP.
and how will you do that? by banning that IP address or by banning the characters? that will just cause people to leave.
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countless steps of progression were provided by players, instead of doing just that
Every TC change was pretty much based on suggestions by players, if I remember correct.
That was working perfect last session, leave peaceful folks doing there stuff? What are you talking about? There are guarded towns for that, in north players must be aware of the danger. Most towns aren't guarded, TC or not it is free to roam the cities and kill everything that moves, how is TC responsible for that?
It was not working and I am very sure that it wasn't working "perfect" the last time, because then we wouldn't have changed it. Players are meaned to be the guards of the town. But they guarded the town so well that nobody else except their faction members had been allowed to enter- everyone else had to die. That's not what TC was originally made for.
Players will never be able to replace NPC guards, you can't enforce this with game mechanics. The only solution I see is to strip out TC from all towns, add normal guards to them like everywhere else, and then instead use stuff like the planned domination mode. That's pretty much the same thing as TC currently, just with maps / locations exactly designed for pvp.
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It was not working and I am very sure that it wasn't working "perfect" the last time, because then we wouldn't have changed it. Players are meaned to be the guards of the town. But they guarded the town so well that nobody else except their faction members had been allowed to enter- everyone else had to die. That's not what TC was originally made for.
But there never was an encouragement to let the random players enter and do their bussiness, or that encouragement wasn't good enough. We players do what's profitable in terms of items and whatever else can be achieved in this game, if something isn't profitable it sure as hell won't be done for the sake of goodwill.
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But there never was an encouragement to let the random players enter and do their bussiness, or that encouragement wasn't good enough. We players do what's profitable in terms of items and whatever else can be achieved in this game, if something isn't profitable it sure as hell won't be done for the sake of goodwill.
I just can agree that post, its said but hell true.
Only buisnesses in North Towns were:
- professions
- trading with npcs
- mining hq minerals/ore (BH, Redding)
- standing near barrel and rolzplaying
- killing those who stay near barrels
- TC
All of those things now were killed by not "rethinked" ideas about silent death, new TC system aka "toilet control" 100% afk.
Just hoping things got fixed or changed by Domination mode - placed in cities, or in specific locations (dunno, maybe some factory, which would bring ammo/weapons/drugs).
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- mining hq minerals/ore (BH, Redding)
thats what needs fix too, I farm my ammo now since every time I go, its always depleted
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thats what needs fix too, I farm my ammo now since every time I go, its always depleted
I can assure that this isn't nowhere near one of the top reasons why the game is so un-fun. You can always find new things to fix for sure, but when situation is dire the fixes must be done in order of importance.
This might sounds like pvp-ape ramblings but pvp puts things rolling. When players lose stuff they start farming and maybe even trading again.
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"Every TC change was pretty much based on suggestions by players, if I remember correct."
What players? ones that have never done tc? I find it hard to believe anyone would suggest something as stupid as camping toilets for days afk and get taken seriously.
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maybe lexx missed the part when tsar,bh and tlc guarding redding and bh like guards. now that cant be done. now if I want to guard I really do have to kill everyone. they are .001 from taking the town so I don't know who is who so all die just in cause. kinda makes rp factions fucked. I was looking forward to doing rp based projects but this new tc shit fucked that up. lexx do us all a favour and go back to old tc and leave it. also don't know what noobs told you this current idea was good but you should from now on actually listen to real tc and pvp players about tc and pvp related issues.
for example don't ask jovanka/any gm/bambi/eter or anyone else that crafts and does pve/idleing all day about pvp.
ask manero,kelin,kilgore,lemark even ask me if you want. now please just wipe this server now and if you can go back to old era if you cant take your time and rebuild but let us know so we at least know you devs are doing something. last era I stayed till the very end this one I already quit a month ago only coming on to kill in reno when there is action.
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@Lexx - Problem with every season and particularly TC is, that every new feature is more or less bugged. That wouldnt be a big deal if we didnt have to wait for a quickfix for eternity.
Moreover, balancing features is a lengthy process, you need to polish this TC gem for more years if you want something funny, reasonable and addictive. The whole process would be a lot faster if we didnt have to wait for results (=better TC) of our input (=suggestions) for months.
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Every TC change was pretty much based on suggestions by players, if I remember correct.
It was not working and I am very sure that it wasn't working "perfect" the last time, because then we wouldn't have changed it. Players are meaned to be the guards of the town. But they guarded the town so well that nobody else except their faction members had been allowed to enter- everyone else had to die. That's not what TC was originally made for.
Wait, EVERYONE (and I mean, quite literally everyone from what I saw) kind of demanded that the previous namecolorization be re-implemented.
Otherwise, this shit occurs. If you don't know who is the enemy, how can you trust anybody but people you closely know? Whether or not there were even any existing incentives to allow players to come and go who were not enemies, not knowing forced people to kill everyone on sight.
so
Even though some players suggestions implied such a system, they specifically state something that they feel is necessary and they are ignored. This isn't backwards?
Also, if you want a good idea of the system the player suggested for TC, you should look to what was fallout online tactics, where there were three flags (areas) that you must hold onto long enough to fully control all of flags to take it, but it was not based on a timer, it was based on players literally battling each other for the areas, holding each area until they had full "control" but it couldn't be taken back by a matter of 1 point within 1 second.
And so, if you didn't meant TC to be anything like "that" then why was it made specifically to be like "that"? being, players killing everyone.
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Wait, EVERYONE (and I mean, quite literally everyone from what I saw) kind of demanded that the previous namecolorization be re-implemented.
You are wrong. To refresh your memory:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,11015.0.html
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You are wrong. To refresh your memory:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,11015.0.html
From what I see it seems the pvpers liked having a name list and the gm's removed it in a misguided attempt to make players not act like dicks. Tagging people is slow, awkward and inefficient to the point where I stopped using it. Fonline isn't a democracy so you can't expect the devs to listen when they have a terrible idea, the new tc system is proof of that. I'm not sure why they want to discourage pvp when that is the main/only mechanic that makes the game worth playing.
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Why not making a separate PvP TC dedicated server for a closed beta test between chosen factions? Maybe this way the TC issues could be solved.
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armors need fixing they detorate way too fast
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All critbursts do is that they provide randomness in area where randomness doesn't belong, which is competitive scene.
Then this game simply cannot ever be competitive, because it was not moved single inch from RNG model in SP. If you exclude crit burst it's crit from sniping, if you exclude that it's random encounters when you travel to place, and several other RNG effects around.
Still balancing mass PvP in this game is actually much easier than doing it in some very complex roleplaying games, because the randomness is smashed by race attacks - if there's some solid chance to do something, you do it several times, and it'll simply happen ( like line of snipers ).
I don't think there'll ever be fair 1v1, because the game is still relatively simple and in that case random will play huge role compared to the control.
This might sounds like pvp-ape ramblings but pvp puts things rolling. When players lose stuff they start farming and maybe even trading again.
It's the part of game that kills the game for quite a lot of players. Still quite relevant to RNG and stuff - player can get very easily in circle: need to have weapon to get stuff, but he can't get weapon because he can't get stuff.
I'm sure this will likely happen to people who have no idea that encounter X provides them with relatively easy stuff.
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Then this game simply cannot ever be competitive, because it was not moved single inch from RNG model in SP. If you exclude crit burst it's crit from sniping, if you exclude that it's random encounters when you travel to place, and several other RNG effects around.
Doesn't matter what it can or can't be. It's players job to point out flaws and keep pointing them out if it seems they become forgotten. If the game can't be comptetitive, then competitive features need to be removed, not left around to annoy and confuse players.
Why critbursts are suddenly so nasty is the fact that they instakill people and they are also the best non-sneak builds overall, no sense fielding other. Critburst builds pretty much surpassed all medium-close range builds.
Sniper crits were annoying last session because one could do KO or instakill with mauser and generally randomly defeat geared enemies by using crap equipment.
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crit bursters were always powerful, especially in previous sessions. mostly during 2nd-4th sessions. I don't really know what is your moaning about. There are really much more important things there to fix. So, maybe get over it.
Randomness is a part of FOnline as it was a part of any Fallout game. You don't like it because it makes it not competitive, go play quake or something.
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crit bursters were always powerful, especially in previous sessions. mostly during 2nd-4th sessions. I don't really know what is your moaning about. There are really much more important things there to fix. So, maybe get over it.
Randomness is a part of FOnline as it was a part of any Fallout game. You don't like it because it makes it not competitive, go play quake or something.
You tell me to play quake? How about you play fonline. This thread is based on experiences gained ingame and what's worst in this whole community are people who stick their noses in matters they haven't been involved. These new builds appeared later in this session because it took time to fabricate the best builds. Did you play actively at that time anymore? If you didn't you don't know what's it like to play with and against these builds. How about you ask your pals who still do pvp about critbursts.
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What if i'm bored with quake?
You are wrong. To refresh your memory:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,11015.0.html
Epic times from what i hear, don't like it, it spoils your fun? Don't use it.( like what difference does it make, " TDM " players will shoot you no matter color ) Players still aren't goin to admit that 2/3 of whole fonline community are just hur-durr apes that aren't even visiting this forum, therefore can't respond to nonsense. Small example of SOT, 20~ members in TS when active, doing TC, ocassionally only 2 members or one is giving some opinion about ingame features on forum. Good feature to have, whether someone likes it or not.
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Doesn't matter what it can or can't be. It's players job to point out flaws and keep pointing them out if it seems they become forgotten. If the game can't be comptetitive, then competitive features need to be removed, not left around to annoy and confuse players.
I agree, but I also believe that the current level of randomness is quite acceptable for TC style competition.
Of course if some build is way too good it should be nerfed to bring some variety and thus more fun, that's no science, but I do not think the game is broken that much so it cannot host any competitive play - but only in conditions where effects of random can be statistically defeated - which is pretty much always happening in mass pvp.
But than again, if randomness was fixed on more levels (understand solo play for example), this game would be so much attractive for me and possibly many others.
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I have the solution!
Rock, paper & scissors!
It is the ultimately balanced game!
Ofc, then you'll all begin to bitch about the OP of sneak rocks or crit scissors.
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You tell me to play quake? How about you play fonline.
Surprisingly, I did played FOnline actively for about 2-3 months in this session.
This thread is based on experiences gained ingame and what's worst in this whole community are people who stick their noses in matters they haven't been involved.
That's what you've been doing for a long time here.
These new builds appeared later in this session because it took time to fabricate the best builds. Did you play actively at that time anymore? If you didn't you don't know what's it like to play with and against these builds. How about you ask your pals who still do pvp about critbursts.
They never mentioned anything about crit builds being OP or sth. It seems that there are more important things to fix than few builds that you personally don't like.
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avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term. Basically, he is the equivalent of a poker newbie who whines every time he screws up a hand like AA or AK because "he should've won".
Because yeah avv, it is possible to kill a powerbuild with a Mauser. Somehow I don't see you running around with Mausers though, so on some level you must understand that, say, a Gatling Laser is still a better weapon. What it all boils down to is "waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game" - because really, just like trying to read your opponent on flop, turn and river adds to a Texas hold'em game, the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.
Oh, and crits add a lot to the fear factor in combat which shouldn't be downplayed in this setting.
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avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term. Basically, he is the equivalent of a poker newbie who whines every time he screws up a hand like AA or AK because "he should've won".
So basically what you are saying, if you loose with a crit burster, you will rely on flat odds that next time you will splatter someone with one hit, even though it's a low chance, statistically you wll kill someone sooner or later. That's comparable to gambling in Poker, and that's trully mindless lottery. Anyway can't compare apples with oranges, can't compare 2238 with poker.
the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.
Oh, and crits add a lot to the fear factor lottery in combat which shouldn't be downplayed in this setting.
I just got one-shot GG'ed, i guess i need to adapt to that, next time i hope i will not get smashed with one hit.
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I still dont get it why you (Kilgore + Nice_Boat) need to react. Avv played this season more than both you combined and I fully agree with his statements. And I dont think Im alone in this.
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Then, why you need to react? ;D
Btw you probably don't have the slightest idea how much I or nice boat play or don't play this game.
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I still dont get it why you (Kilgore + Nice_Boat) need to react. Avv played this season more than both you combined and I fully agree with his statements. And I dont think Im alone in this.
You're not alone, 300+ crits from range must go. If you want to have these, then make it happen occationally, not every 4th burst (sometimes you can deal many crits in a row, for example you meet 290 hp full geared enemy, 2 criticals for 250 hp and enemy is dead). If someone tells me that I can make a full hp build with man of steel... then he's simply wrong, because you can still gatling crit such build for 700 dmg (tested, I killed LK 10 mos 290 hp 100/100 tesla guy).
Unfortunately this would not solve anything, since the server is highly unstable with lags and rollbacks every hour. I don't think it will get better, most likely it is engine related and afaik you need to wipe a server before you can update the engine. I'm not happy to say that but... you better wait for the next session :(
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I think critical bursts happen too often. I'm OK with randomness, this is no Quake,
but there is a bit of a problem here. Critical bursters can stimpak themselves and stay
alive this way until they get the "lucky" kill burst (20-25% doesn't require much luck).
If there was no super stimpaks maybe it would be different but it's not the case.
If I'm wrong about this feel free to enlighten me, because I just idle in NCR :)
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So basically what you are saying, if you loose with a crit burster, you will rely on flat odds that next time you will splatter someone with one hit, even though it's a low chance, statistically you wll kill someone sooner or later. That's comparable to gambling in Poker, and that's trully mindless lottery. Anyway can't compare apples with oranges, can't compare 2238 with poker.
What's wrong with that? You either do steady, predictable medium to high damage or you do low damage with the odds of occasional very high damage. It's not mindless if you factor in movement, teamplay and tactics. And yeah, laws of probability actually work the same on 2238, in poker and everywhere else. Besides, the only reason people are bitching about critbursters is because they're used to the same old "can't beat our hp/dps ratio" bumrush with neither will nor skill to adapt to something new and this sort of build simply rapes that in certain circumstances.
I just got one-shot GG'ed, i guess i need to adapt to that, next time i hope i will not get smashed with one hit.
Yeah, exactly, you need to adapt. Or you could just whine until the confused devs simplify the game even more.
Also, I'm laughing hard at avv, Sarakin etc. cause I'm pretty sure I had one of the first 100% dedicated critbursters in this session and unlike some people here I actually did the math so I know, for example, that fighting against a standard BRD burster with a critburster 1 on 1 is probably not the best idea. But yeah, I don't play anymore because the server is more or less empty and I have better things to do than waiting for action a few hours per day so feel free to axe another thing making PvP more complicated and entertaining. Here's an idea, why don't you babies make every weapon do the same, preferably low amount of damage and give every build a fixed amount of HP. When you're done with that, just disable sneak and voila - you have a perfectly balanced and perfectly boring game.
Besides, there's absolutely no point to any balance related threads unless the devs specifically state in descriptive terms what level of lethality PvP weapons should have. Because if it's supposed to be something like "a 150% AP attack is supposed to kill you 9 out of 10 times" than it's not critbursters who need a nerf, it's normal bursters who need a buff. Without making any design decisions of this sort you're not going to improve anything, you're just going to shuffle the deck with another build proving to be "OP" later on and more whine to follow, but then again I guess this is just how this server rolls.
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So a guy tried to crit burst me, got a low roll and only did like 80 dmg, i punched him in the eyes for over 200 and killed him. Luck works both ways guys.
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What's wrong with that? You either do steady, predictable medium to high damage or you do low damage with the odds of occasional very high damage.
" very high damage " that almost always exceeds maximum possible health, not to mention bypasses. If you have any sense of balance, you'd understand that the critical hits are dealing too much damage with the appropriate build, compared to the possibilities of protection, bad game mechanic. Nerfing their damage, buffing perks that provide protection etc. etc., chance to hit is alright, damage is not and insta-kills are even worse, because of the damage. I don't mind critical being powerful, a viable option to play one, but if you don't realize that they aren't balanced in the current state, tell me something more about Poker.
Yeah, exactly, you need to adapt.
Make the same build, that's your idea of adapting? I haven't heard anything so ridiculous for a good while, you were talking about starcraft some time ago, now about poker. The fuck what?
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"waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game"
And you'd prefer simple, unpredictable game over complex, but predictable game?
It's not mindless if you factor in movement, teamplay and tactics.
And those could matter even more, reducing the effect of randomness. Changing BG dudes to sometimes gib other BG dudes does not add anything amazing to the game. But it is not really problem in that context.
What is really however happening is the more of this being added to the game results in steadily less playable solo part. You might have exciting moment in some battle, and then you have mindless random grind of equipment or leveling that suffers even more with addition of any new random element.
It feels like playing X-Com with just one soldier.... Unless you play with lotsa friends.
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And you'd prefer simple, unpredictable game over complex, but predictable game?And those could matter even more, reducing the effect of randomness. Changing BG dudes to sometimes gib other BG dudes does not add anything amazing to the game. But it is not really problem in that context.
What is really however happening is the more of this being added to the game results in steadily less playable solo part. You might have exciting moment in some battle, and then you have mindless random grind of equipment or leveling that suffers even more with addition of any new random element.
It feels like playing X-Com with just one soldier.... Unless you play with lotsa friends.
Just put it into some perspective man. There used to be no random factor at all because getting shot at with full AP meant you were going down (ie. somebody clicked you, you died 9 out of 10 times) - somehow people whined less. Now the "AP to kill" factor is about twice as big and getting shot with crit stuff means you have like 80-75% chance of surviving and suddenly it's worse? Let me remind you it's you people who were asking specifically for this shit about a year ago. How far are you ready to push this "nerf effin' everything" agenda? Because if you haven't noticed, you're one step from "can't kill any max level character because he's just going to tank damage and outrun you due to lol engine limitations" because everything moves with exactly the same speed. Actually, crits (KOs, stuns, instakills) might be the only thing preventing this from happening right now.
Oh, and yeah, crits are predictable. You have a chance to crit a given build which is set in stone - over enough iterations of the same situation you're going to get fairly consistent results (hence the poker analogy). The thing is having 2 kinds of damage in game (crits working more or less like "chance to kill" and normal bursts dealing linear damage) makes for a more complex game than having one type of damage. Balancing it out is another thing, but I think it'd be safe to assume the devs themselves don't even know what they're aiming for so trying to work something out seems somewhat pointless because first of all we're not going to come up with consistent design docs because we're a group of random people and not a development team, secondly this community isn't really capable of agreeing on anything and last but not least - even if it happened the devs would probably scrap such work anyway because they'd want to test another brilliant new idea.
Anyway, I'm a bit sorry I forgot that talking to tripleight is a waste of time because he can't into comparisons, creativity and logic.
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They never mentioned anything about crit builds being OP or sth.
<Simon> more luck, more crit burst
<[BBS]Spad> Cannot be, we all know the formula is ''more critburst means more skill''
<Simon> I don't like it
<[BBS]Spad> Neither me
<avv> manero tell your opinion about critbursts?
<Manero> it sucks
<Manero> there is no point to make different build than 12ap brof 20% crit chance ;p
Those guys actually play the game.
avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term.
That's true. I don't like it that the group who dishes out most fastrelogs and farms most wins, because that's a way to defeat an enemy when randomness is involved - outlast it.
Short-term is more interesting because it's about making quick decisions and plans but plans can't be executed if they fail randomly.
Somehow I don't see you running around with Mausers though, so on some level you must understand that, say, a Gatling Laser is still a better weapon. What it all boils down to is "waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game" - because really, just like trying to read your opponent on flop, turn and river adds to a Texas hold'em game, the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.
Then you can probably also explain why most trooper builds at the moment are critbursters, where plasma-builds went and where are pistoleros. Critburster is the best choice for medium-close range combat.
All instakill crits add in the teamplay factor is that one of my pals have to spawn his fastrelog, because there's nothing else there can be done about it because he's dead. Before he died? All the enemy needs to do is to click on my troops and there's a chance for instakill, pretty hard to plan against that, maybe stay on worldmap.
Besides, it's not particularly fun to have a plan fail because me or my friends got instakilled randomly. Neither does it feel particularly glorious to win because 3 enemies died to critbursts of mine or my friend's guns. Plans are supposed to fail because enemy makes a better plan. But nobody can plan to lay a critburst, so can the winner call himself a good tactician or skilled? I'd rather try to adapt to actions of cunning enemy, rather than random instakills I cause them or they cause us.
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So yeah, where did the old "don't get hit" go? It's hilarious how what you've said now matches what I've written about lack of adaption skills and nostalgia for dps/hp blobs. You've had those critburst builds for what, 2-3 months and your answer to something new is a friggin' river of tears. Give me a break, the worst thing the devs ever did was listening to the nerf/buff crowd, they should've just told you all to go to hell some 18 months ago because this game is neither more fun nor more balanced than levelcapped vanilla Fallout 2 ran on FOnline engine with combat running enabled. That way they could've focused on content and stability and perhaps we wouldn't be left with the dying mess this game has become.
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So yeah, where did the old "don't get hit" go? It's hilarious how what you've said now matches what I've written about lack of adaption skills and nostalgia for dps/hp blobs. You've had those critburst builds for what, 2-3 months and your answer to something new is a friggin' river of tears. Give me a break, the worst thing the devs ever did was listening to the nerf/buff crowd, they should've just told you all to go to hell some 18 months ago because this game is neither more fun nor more balanced than levelcapped vanilla Fallout 2 ran on FOnline engine with combat running enabled.
Don't get hit? This isn't particularly close to practical solutions available ingame, unless you mean to stay on worldmap or play as a sneaker. That's just ridiculous "advice".
In last session we didn't have many critbursters because the tradeoff to be one was pretty high. They had less hp, needed more INT and luck and had to spend more perks to get the crit chance. And then good choices for weapons were either rocket or lsw, which both do less damage than avenger, m60 gatling laser which are good choice for critbursters in this session.
In last session instead of crit bursters snipers were the mood-breakers, again due to randomness.
That way they could've focused on content and stability and perhaps we wouldn't be left with the dying mess this game has become.
But balance and enjoyable pvp is content. I don't think you can ever fully understand why I argue with you against something as micro as critbursts until you have yourself went out there and fought with and against them few dozen times. I've done it and it amazes me that when I release my experiences there are people who claim they didn't happen, people who I've never met ingame. I've met Kelin, Manero, Sarakin, t888 and Docspad ingame and fought them, how come we have aproximately similar view of the state of the game? How can you just bypass their opinions, tell they are wrong and actually give advice to them, like not to get hit in pvp. Dude wtf.
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Well, "try to not get hit" is a good piece of advice indeed.
Personally, I liked "stop dying kurwa" better. Seriously!
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Uh sorry if I sounded whinny, my point is how reliance on random factor kinda hurts the part of game where you are helpless, but don't add much to the part that's already fine.
I for one don't think players need to last much nor that there shouldn't be any random factor there (though it could work with some massive changing, and possibly work much more competitive), but I do mind how this pretty much fucks up farm and fun.
In Fonline you could pretty much be afraid of basic critters if you were given the best stuff. It's again kinda OK for multiplayer game, but given the fact there needs to be some support for player to have him enjoy the game, and that there's solo content to be viable ( or they really need to build any good buddy system from ground, because it's still hell to try to play with others ), and that requires one to know how to do stuff and to allow doing stuff non-tedious way.ยจ
Right now if you wish to defeat something, you are waiting how random will work, because critters have insane crit capabilities (compared to singleplayer game) and CTB mode is just broken (for example the speed stuff, or the game that's been designed to run turn based now being realtime).
Now what's really the problem with those PvP changes - arguably PvP is affected quite a lot by metagaming, due to how builds work - not that it is not any fun, I remember people having tons of fun with creating various characters or strategies, that's a stuff to be kept, but this also means it's very likely this is what will appear and have to work when you are alone, and more importantly fighting the wasteland.
Don't get hit? This isn't particularly close to practical solutions available ingame
I haven't played much lately, but I still remember patience and strategy playing prime role in PvP, visibility was very important thing to keep in mind, and most maps were designed to provide some kind of defense. This thing always had the flaw however, one of them being trench warfare, where nobody was motivated to ever move his ass out of the cower (this would really use dynamic environment) and BG rush, where you could just ignore things, and run into one hex range.
Now again useful analogy with X-Com - not getting hit is much more important than being able to survive ( though power armor gives solid chance to remain unharmed, it does not prevent your soldiers from dying in one round or from one burst ) - it was pretty equal not to be in sniping view (getting knocked out and being killed). The part where analogy fails is the interaction with environment. X-Com environment is notable for being destructable, and predictable (eg. you know what type of terrain decreases your chances to hit targets, what will absorb explosions, what is durable to fire, what makes specific kind of noise, which does not work very well in Fonline).
This is one of the ways you could improve Fonline - by making strategy even more complex and give people more options. This works entirely on decisions, and requires no random results to keep players in check.
Anyway I think I am ranting way too much.
TLDR: Make singleplayer/PvE much more predictable and fair to reduce level of frustration or boredom in the part which is now enjoyed by very few people.
To make PvP more fun, there are more options that don't necessarily change the way that solo work and perhaps may potentially improve even it. Solo simply cannot benefit from balanced multiplayer, yet it's almost decisive part of the game when it comes to player retention or overall fun factor.
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These discussions are always so productive. You guys are all a bunch of whiney little bitches that get butthurtz when you get killed, frantaclly relog and "strategize" from where your next "tactical" attack is going to come from to commercial row. 3-2-1 rush! die die die. boo hoos, tears, im going to bed, this game sucks i hate critbrusts its bullshit! That fucking plasmasneaker got me again, god damnit! Back to WM. Get your next wave of alts over WM, please keep the channel clear you Polacks! stfu kurwa! Are we doing action? Idk, we're checking it out with sneakers.
Yeah, that's some downright tactical shit there boys and girls lmao.
That's everyday......
The only thing that would make you happy is if you can go around soloing all by your big bad self then the game would be just perfect! You want to be able to say "looks at my madzkills!" I am so intelligent I have made the uber rapist build, nobody can touch mehz!
Predictable....
so predictable.
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Don't die is great advice, it's the players fault for not following it.
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Don't die is great advice, it's the players fault for not following it.
thank you for the tip il try it