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[Nice_Boat]

avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term. Basically, he is the equivalent of a poker newbie who whines every time he screws up a hand like AA or AK because "he should've won".

Because yeah avv, it is possible to kill a powerbuild with a Mauser. Somehow I don't see you running around with Mausers though, so on some level you must understand that, say, a Gatling Laser is still a better weapon. What it all boils down to is "waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game" - because really, just like trying to read your opponent on flop, turn and river adds to a Texas hold'em game, the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.

Oh, and crits add a lot to the fear factor in combat which shouldn't be downplayed in this setting.

[T-888]

avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term. Basically, he is the equivalent of a poker newbie who whines every time he screws up a hand like AA or AK because "he should've won".

So basically what you are saying, if you loose with a crit burster, you will rely on flat odds that next time you will splatter someone with one hit, even though it's a low chance, statistically you wll kill someone sooner or later. That's comparable to gambling in Poker, and that's trully mindless lottery. Anyway can't compare apples with oranges, can't compare 2238 with poker.

the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.

Oh, and crits add a lot to the fear factor lottery in combat which shouldn't be downplayed in this setting.

I just got one-shot GG'ed, i guess i need to adapt to that, next time i hope i will not get smashed with one hit.

[Sarakin]

I still dont get it why you (Kilgore + Nice_Boat) need to react. Avv played this season more than both you combined and I fully agree with his statements. And I dont think Im alone in this.

[Kilgore]

Then, why you need to react? 

Btw you probably don't have the slightest idea how much I or nice boat play or don't play this game.

[Kelin]

I still dont get it why you (Kilgore + Nice_Boat) need to react. Avv played this season more than both you combined and I fully agree with his statements. And I dont think Im alone in this.

You're not alone, 300+ crits from range must go. If you want to have these, then make it happen occationally, not every 4th burst (sometimes you can deal many crits in a row, for example you meet 290 hp full geared enemy, 2 criticals for 250 hp and enemy is dead). If someone tells me that I can make a full hp build with man of steel... then he's simply wrong, because you can still gatling crit such build for 700 dmg (tested, I killed LK 10 mos 290 hp 100/100 tesla guy).

Unfortunately this would not solve anything, since the server is highly unstable with lags and rollbacks every hour. I don't think it will get better, most likely it is engine related and afaik you need to wipe a server before you can update the engine. I'm not happy to say that but... you better wait for the next session   

[JovankaB]

I think critical bursts happen too often. I'm OK with randomness, this is no Quake,
but there is a bit of a problem here. Critical bursters can stimpak themselves and stay
alive this way until they get the "lucky" kill burst (20-25% doesn't require much luck).
If there was no super stimpaks maybe it would be different but it's not the case.

If I'm wrong about this feel free to enlighten me, because I just idle in NCR

[Nice_Boat]

So basically what you are saying, if you loose with a crit burster, you will rely on flat odds that next time you will splatter someone with one hit, even though it's a low chance, statistically you wll kill someone sooner or later. That's comparable to gambling in Poker, and that's trully mindless lottery. Anyway can't compare apples with oranges, can't compare 2238 with poker.

What's wrong with that? You either do steady, predictable medium to high damage or you do low damage with the odds of occasional very high damage. It's not mindless if you factor in movement, teamplay and tactics. And yeah, laws of probability actually work the same on 2238, in poker and everywhere else. Besides, the only reason people are bitching about critbursters is because they're used to the same old "can't beat our hp/dps ratio" bumrush with neither will nor skill to adapt to something new and this sort of build simply rapes that in certain circumstances.

I just got one-shot GG'ed, i guess i need to adapt to that, next time i hope i will not get smashed with one hit.

Yeah, exactly, you need to adapt. Or you could just whine until the confused devs simplify the game even more.


Also, I'm laughing hard at avv, Sarakin etc. cause I'm pretty sure I had one of the first 100% dedicated critbursters in this session and unlike some people here I actually did the math so I know, for example, that fighting against a standard BRD burster with a critburster 1 on 1 is probably not the best idea. But yeah, I don't play anymore because the server is more or less empty and I have better things to do than waiting for action a few hours per day so feel free to axe another thing making PvP more complicated and entertaining. Here's an idea, why don't you babies make every weapon do the same, preferably low amount of damage and give every build a fixed amount of HP. When you're done with that, just disable sneak and voila - you have a perfectly balanced and perfectly boring game.

Besides, there's absolutely no point to any balance related threads unless the devs specifically state in descriptive terms what level of lethality PvP weapons should have. Because if it's supposed to be something like "a 150% AP attack is supposed to kill you 9 out of 10 times" than it's not critbursters who need a nerf, it's normal bursters who need a buff. Without making any design decisions of this sort you're not going to improve anything, you're just going to shuffle the deck with another build proving to be "OP" later on and more whine to follow, but then again I guess this is just how this server rolls.

[Roachor]

So a guy tried to crit burst me, got a low roll and only did like 80 dmg, i punched him in the eyes for over 200 and killed him. Luck works both ways guys.

[T-888]

What's wrong with that? You either do steady, predictable medium to high damage or you do low damage with the odds of occasional very high damage.

" very high damage " that almost always exceeds maximum possible health, not to mention bypasses. If you have any sense of balance, you'd understand that the critical hits are dealing too much damage with the appropriate build, compared to the possibilities of protection, bad game mechanic. Nerfing their damage, buffing perks that provide protection etc. etc., chance to hit is alright, damage is not and insta-kills are even worse, because of the damage. I don't mind critical being powerful, a viable option to play one, but if you don't realize that they aren't balanced in the current state, tell me something more about Poker.

Yeah, exactly, you need to adapt.

Make the same build, that's your idea of adapting? I haven't heard anything so ridiculous for a good while, you were talking about starcraft some time ago, now about poker. The fuck what?

[Johnnybravo]

"waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game"

And you'd prefer simple, unpredictable game over complex, but predictable game?

It's not mindless if you factor in movement, teamplay and tactics.

And those could matter even more, reducing the effect of randomness. Changing BG dudes to sometimes gib other BG dudes does not add anything amazing to the game. But it is not really problem in that context.

What is really however happening is the more of this being added to the game results in steadily less playable solo part. You might have exciting moment in some battle, and then you have mindless random grind of equipment or leveling that suffers even more with addition of any new random element.
It feels like playing X-Com with just one soldier.... Unless you play with lotsa friends.

[Nice_Boat]

And you'd prefer simple, unpredictable game over complex, but predictable game?And those could matter even more, reducing the effect of randomness. Changing BG dudes to sometimes gib other BG dudes does not add anything amazing to the game. But it is not really problem in that context.

What is really however happening is the more of this being added to the game results in steadily less playable solo part. You might have exciting moment in some battle, and then you have mindless random grind of equipment or leveling that suffers even more with addition of any new random element.
It feels like playing X-Com with just one soldier.... Unless you play with lotsa friends.

Just put it into some perspective man. There used to be no random factor at all because getting shot at with full AP meant you were going down (ie. somebody clicked you, you died 9 out of 10 times) - somehow people whined less. Now the "AP to kill" factor is about twice as big and getting shot with crit stuff means you have like 80-75% chance of surviving and suddenly it's worse? Let me remind you it's you people who were asking specifically for this shit about a year ago. How far are you ready to push this "nerf effin' everything" agenda? Because if you haven't noticed, you're one step from "can't kill any max level character because he's just going to tank damage and outrun you due to lol engine limitations" because everything moves with exactly the same speed. Actually, crits (KOs, stuns, instakills) might be the only thing preventing this from happening right now.

Oh, and yeah, crits are predictable. You have a chance to crit a given build which is set in stone - over enough iterations of the same situation you're going to get fairly consistent results (hence the poker analogy). The thing is having 2 kinds of damage in game (crits working more or less like "chance to kill" and normal bursts dealing linear damage) makes for a more complex game than having one type of damage. Balancing it out is another thing, but I think it'd be safe to assume the devs themselves don't even know what they're aiming for so trying to work something out seems somewhat pointless because first of all we're not going to come up with consistent design docs because we're a group of random people and not a development team, secondly this community isn't really capable of agreeing on anything and last but not least - even if it happened the devs would probably scrap such work anyway because they'd want to test another brilliant new idea.

Anyway, I'm a bit sorry I forgot that talking to tripleight is a waste of time because he can't into comparisons, creativity and logic.

[avv]

They never mentioned anything about crit builds being OP or sth.

<Simon> more luck, more crit burst
<[BBS]Spad> Cannot be, we all know the formula is ''more critburst means more skill''
<Simon> I don't like it
<[BBS]Spad> Neither me

<avv> manero tell your opinion about critbursts?
<Manero> it sucks
<Manero> there is no point to make different build than 12ap brof 20% crit chance ;p

Those guys actually play the game.

avv can't get over the fact that combat in this game is predictable in long-term and unpredictable in short-term.

That's true. I don't like it that the group who dishes out most fastrelogs and farms most wins, because that's a way to defeat an enemy when randomness is involved - outlast it.
Short-term is more interesting because it's about making quick decisions and plans but plans can't be executed if they fail randomly.

Somehow I don't see you running around with Mausers though, so on some level you must understand that, say, a Gatling Laser is still a better weapon. What it all boils down to is "waaah, waaaaaah, I want a simpler, more predictable game" - because really, just like trying to read your opponent on flop, turn and river adds to a Texas hold'em game, the crits and unpredictability add to the teamplay factor because you have to adapt to unexpected developments and play in a more flexible/stealthy manner.

Then you can probably also explain why most trooper builds at the moment are critbursters, where plasma-builds went and where are pistoleros. Critburster is the best choice for medium-close range combat.

All instakill crits add in the teamplay factor is that one of my pals have to spawn his fastrelog, because there's nothing else there can be done about it because he's dead. Before he died? All the enemy needs to do is to click on my troops and there's a chance for instakill, pretty hard to plan against that, maybe stay on worldmap.
Besides, it's not particularly fun to have a plan fail because me or my friends got instakilled randomly. Neither does it feel particularly glorious to win because 3 enemies died to critbursts of mine or my friend's guns. Plans are supposed to fail because enemy makes a better plan. But nobody can plan to lay a critburst, so can the winner call himself a good tactician or skilled? I'd rather try to adapt to actions of cunning enemy, rather than random instakills I cause them or they cause us.

[Nice_Boat]

...

So yeah, where did the old "don't get hit" go? It's hilarious how what you've said now matches what I've written about lack of adaption skills and nostalgia for dps/hp blobs. You've had those critburst builds for what, 2-3 months and your answer to something new is a friggin' river of tears. Give me a break, the worst thing the devs ever did was listening to the nerf/buff crowd, they should've just told you all to go to hell some 18 months ago because this game is neither more fun nor more balanced than levelcapped vanilla Fallout 2 ran on FOnline engine with combat running enabled. That way they could've focused on content and stability and perhaps we wouldn't be left with the dying mess this game has become.

[avv]

So yeah, where did the old "don't get hit" go? It's hilarious how what you've said now matches what I've written about lack of adaption skills and nostalgia for dps/hp blobs. You've had those critburst builds for what, 2-3 months and your answer to something new is a friggin' river of tears. Give me a break, the worst thing the devs ever did was listening to the nerf/buff crowd, they should've just told you all to go to hell some 18 months ago because this game is neither more fun nor more balanced than levelcapped vanilla Fallout 2 ran on FOnline engine with combat running enabled.

Don't get hit? This isn't particularly close to practical solutions available ingame, unless you mean to stay on worldmap or play as a sneaker. That's just ridiculous "advice".
In last session we didn't have many critbursters because the tradeoff to be one was pretty high. They had less hp, needed more INT and luck and had to spend more perks to get the crit chance. And then good choices for weapons were either rocket or lsw, which both do less damage than avenger, m60 gatling laser which are good choice for critbursters in this session.
In last session instead of crit bursters snipers were the mood-breakers, again due to randomness.

That way they could've focused on content and stability and perhaps we wouldn't be left with the dying mess this game has become.

But balance and enjoyable pvp is content. I don't think you can ever fully understand why I argue with you against something as micro as critbursts until you have yourself went out there and fought with and against them few dozen times. I've done it and it amazes me that when I release my experiences there are people who claim they didn't happen, people who I've never met ingame. I've met Kelin, Manero, Sarakin, t888 and Docspad ingame and fought them, how come we have aproximately similar view of the state of the game? How can you just bypass their opinions, tell they are wrong and actually give advice to them, like not to get hit in pvp. Dude wtf.

[Kilgore]

Well, "try to not get hit" is a good piece of advice indeed.

Personally, I liked "stop dying kurwa" better. Seriously!