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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Who Killed Bambi on March 06, 2012, 05:23:19 pm
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my suggestion is to remove all types of this ammo at all from game, let people craft new for themself. because:
MFC - was easy to get from enclave at start (was it bug with MFC?)
Small energy cell - was bug at start of session ( 1 alloy=100sec or 1 ep = 100 sec too )
5 mm ap - huge BoS thievery faction.
Rockets - same like 5mm ap.
Comments ? Suggestions ? Modifications ?
My comment - all ca at hub and gr, and all good weapon(spawning 3 times per game day) going to BoS thiefes (5mm, rockets)
Good weapon at sf going to small energy cell bug abusers and etc.
So to end of session alot BoS members can buy stuff at merchants with theyr 5mm and rockets and other steal able/bugged stuff.
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You're dropping the game and you think it'd be sad to go alone, huh? No, seriously, farming should be the primary source of obtaining supplies, crafting is just too boring unless some seriously funky/powerful stuff is involved. This server used to hold over 500 unique players when getting the popular/necessary items was a simple matter of shooting up a caravan and/or a few dudes engaged in the same activity, implementing suggestions like this one has already brought it down to about 100 and this session a few smaller gangs have stopped playing because it was too hard for them to keep the logistical side of things running. It's a disaster in the making and yet you want to introduce even more mundane grind? God help us all if the devs share this view.
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Huh ?
Is farming 5mm jhp from BoS with thief cool and interactive and great feature from devs ?
God bless devs, they removed BoS encounters. Lets 5mm gonna go away too. 1 hour of BoS farming was 500k 5mm jhp ? and which gang gonna go away from server after theyr stock of 5mm gone ? i dont get point, sorry.
But exploit and stuff from exploits is better be removed.
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Huh ?
Is farming 5mm jhp from BoS with thief cool and interactive and great feature from devs ?
God bless devs, they removed BoS encounters. Lets 5mm gonna go away too. 1 hour of BoS farming was 500k 5mm jhp ? and which gang gonna go away from server after theyr stock of 5mm gone ? i dont get point, sorry.
But exploit and stuff from exploits is better be removed.
The problem isn't the removal of steal-farming (but wait... why is steal-farming bad again?), it's the fact that the only other viable source of ammunition would be crafting since combat farming is more or less dead by now. Unless this game is supposed to be a simulator of a Chineese factory, this is simply unacceptable and yes, people have already left because of this and many would follow if it happened again. And it's not like there's that many of us left anyway. Heck, even the Mad Max wet dream would die because of this crap, as it'd be quite hard to pretend being Mel Gibson if the only humanoid character you could meet was Enclave Patrolman CritterId#34235.
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^ This.
Farming is getting constantly nerfed. Why?
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^ This.
Farming is getting constantly nerfed. Why?
devs want us to no life and craft all day for 1 pvp battle thats why......
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why is leveling a thief character (a somewhat difficult build to level) and using it to steal ammo wrong? what is the point of a thief then? what exploit? if one were to say going the BoS to steal from them is an exploit, i dont see how. you can join a player faction and rob them with a level 1 alt. isnt it the same concept? except you need 300% skill.
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I am 100% opposed to your suggestion of wiping those items. So what if some gear was made by other recipes. If they did this, they'd have to wipe all Nuka Cola too since that formula changed. No way would wiping this stuff be fair now - too late. And i think Mel Gibson would agree with me.
Nothing wrong with using a thief to get 5mm ammo from NPCs over boring boring boring crafting it. Last season it took 3 hours to get 33k 5mm rounds of AP ammo from BoS. That was a big time investment but i didn't have to steal any more for a long time and i used my PvP big gunner a lot.
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i see that all pvp apes here farming 5mm ammo, then i see no reason to add my opinion.
devs before wipe talked at forum that bos/enclave farming gonna end, so i think this is like abuse - get ammo for 2kk for 5 hours is kinda weird.
even not adding realism to game - oh, i m bos initiate and i m stealing 5mm ammo from paladins, paladins noticed this few times and killed me, i ressurected at replication point and i m still at BoS, i need steal more ammo. bla bla bla D:
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even not adding realism to game - oh, i m bos initiate and i m stealing 5mm ammo from paladins, paladins noticed this few times and killed me, i ressurected at replication point and i m still at BoS, i need steal more ammo. bla bla bla D:
So you're basically saying that getting magically resurrected after having half of your torso blown off is not breaking your suspension of disbelief, while BoS "forgetting" you stole from one of their patrols is totally unacceptable, or have I missed something?
And yeah, stealing ammo is sort of retarded right now because it's the fastest way of getting it. Stealing should be a viable option, but should be a lot slower than fighting for it, while crafting ammo should be the slowest option that you only resort to at the very beginning.
Honestly, having an endgame-level player who has numerous level 24 characters do basic farming for basic ammo that is spent by the hundreds on a normal day is pretty bad, but having the same player click some rocks and then go f->5mm AP->done about 40 times at the workbench is absolutely ridiculous, doesn't even matter whether you do PvP or PvE - actually the latter is a much greater ammo sink and a reason PvP oriented players generally avoid it like plague.
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Tell me why not, stop telling me why you dont understand
me or trying to tell me i m wrong. I dont give a fuck to make
posts where i need to make long-long bla bla about 5mm ammo and sec from
1 ep is good. Read lawyer doctrines about possible use or man for making usefull
ammo and thief which imagine himself brotherhood member. And i ll add this.
Shall I yet say more? If Oxylus, the son of Orius, had begotten this plant
upon his sister Hamadryas, he had taken more delight in the value and
perfection of it alone than in all his eight children, so highly renowned
by our ablest mythologians that they have sedulously recommended their
names to the never-failing tuition of an eternal remembrance. The eldest
child was a daughter, whose name was Vine; the next born was a boy, and his
name was Fig-tree; the third was called Walnut-tree; the fourth Oak; the
fifth Sorbapple-tree; the sixth Ash; the seventh Poplar, and the last had
the name of Elm, who was the greatest surgeon in his time. I shall forbear
to tell you how the juice or sap thereof, being poured and distilled within
the ears, killeth every kind of vermin that by any manner of putrefaction
cometh to be bred and engendered there, and destroyeth also any whatsoever
other animal that shall have entered in thereat. If, likewise, you put a
little of the said juice within a pail or bucket full of water, you shall
see the water instantly turn and grow thick therewith as if it were milk-
curds, whereof the virtue is so great that the water thus curded is a
present remedy for horses subject to the colic, and such as strike at their
own flanks. The root thereof well boiled mollifieth the joints, softeneth
the hardness of shrunk-in sinews, is every way comfortable to the nerves,
and good against all cramps and convulsions, as likewise all cold and
knotty gouts. If you would speedily heal a burning, whether occasioned by
water or fire, apply thereto a little raw Pantagruelion, that is to say,
take it so as it cometh out of the ground, without bestowing any other
preparation or composition upon it; but have a special care to change it
for some fresher in lieu thereof as soon as you shall find it waxing dry
upon the sore.
This is retarded trader willing to sell you CA for few 5mm bullets instead of 5 assault rifles or 7.62 ammo, which you get from angry raider or finelly crafted.
This - 20kk ammo stock of 5mm ammo - impossible in post war california, but possible at FOnline, then why not remove all this ammo and rockets. Let players get stuff by robbing poor citizens and players or crafting or from encounter, using 1 alt for scouting, 2 for fight and 3rd for carry stuff.
Enjoy farming 300k ammo for 5 hours and few k rockets. Yeh, it post atomic war america, get your stock of ammo for small army in 1 game play day.
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(...)
Enjoy farming 300k ammo for 5 hours and few k rockets. Yeh, it post atomic war america, get your stock of ammo for small army in 1 game play day.
Oh god, you just went full retard. First of all, it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and playable, not a boring, mundane affair of swinging the same old virtual hammer into the same old pile of virtual rocks for the upteenth time. Secondly - yeah, ammo is easy to make in pre-war America, Europe or actually any other place in the world, even with some pretty basic tools - so I don't see why obtaining it should be such a problem in a post-war America where every second dude is walking around with a gun in his hands and a lot of people use guns for hunting, even in shitholes such as Klamath.
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Waaaahh!! Waaaahhh!!! Goo goo gaga! Boo boo bee boo, my boo boo hurts. Waaaagghhh! Waaagghhh!!!"
That's all I'm seeing in your post. Quit your little girl lolly gagging and play the game.
I am one of those people who thieves from BOS and it's actually fun, its like gambling you never know if your gonna get away sometimes I can have up to 1000 5mm and next thing you know BAM! it's gone in a flash -800 dmg by a bos gunner. It's tough stealing and it's not easy. It makes for some serious rage quits.
In the wise words of Forest Gump, "Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."
So STFU and play FOnline like a MAN! Cry baby.
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Normally i dont agree with boat, but on this matter i have to say hes right. what would be the point of playing a thief in game if the game itself has no reason to be one, its a different way of playing. instead of making a crafting farmer you just make a thief farmer, the concept is the same except your saving hours upon hours of pointless farming to get what you want. why would people resort to crafting when they could do this, if you wanted to make crafting more viable remove the time outs on the piles of rocks, its frustrating when you can literally walk from mine to mine and every pile is depleted, makes stealing from BoS way more attractive.
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1 hour of BoS farming was 500k 5mm jhp <----------------------this is insanely over-exaggerated, ive done this myself in the previous age(haven't bothered to do so this age, as i find it very boring) but in reality you could get about 10-15000 5mm ap ammo in an hour at 8caps a bullet that's around 80000-120000 caps....( if you were pretty fast and had maxed out skill and correct perks. that sounds like alot but really its not if you think about it, if you bought a car/gear/CA or BA/ammo/drugs or faction related things(bases, gear for teammates, etc....) that's not going to really do much for you, so with that being said, i don't feel like its particularly awful mechanic or overpowered even.
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... it's supposed to be fun and playable, not a boring, mundane affair of swinging the same old virtual hammer into the same old pile of virtual rocks for the upteenth time. bla bla bla
This , i'm tired of this shit. I'm tired explaining that playing this game shouldn't feel like a fuc**ng chore , i don't want to do some ultimate grind all the time , to obtain the simplest items in the game that would suit ones needs.
Boat no offense , it's painful to read what you write even if you have a good point , you do nothing except argue on this forum :)
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As i think, problem is: When devs buff farming a bit = a LOT of stuff everywhere.
When they nerf farming a bit = a LOT of (maybe reasonable) complaining.
I just want to see where is that MIGHTY balance beetwen farming/crafting/ammout of stuff and when/how we can make it.
And my opinion about grinding stuff itself. I dont want easy game, but i also dont want stupid time consuming game where you must do the same thing all over just for one thing which have no value anyway.
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Not everyone gathered his ammo just by shady means. Removing all ammo would punish honest people most along with loners. This suggestion seems like butthurt : "I didnt know how to, or didnt make it in time to gather shitloads of ammo, so no one will have them"
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1 hour of BoS farming was 500k 5mm jhp <----------------------this is insanely
It's not that easy anymore. You have a time limit on each BOS you walk up on and they will kill you.
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yes!!! lets all use only rocks or HH unarmed!
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2qn39l4.gif)
weapons, armors, ammo, drugs they should be readily available. it is fucking game and i dont want to spend 99%f time crafting, farming, questing, in front of pc.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/398639_364370346920836_164449026912970_1327074_1210454578_n.jpg)
rage rage rage, nonono, left us BoS for farming ammo.
all i see in posts...
thanks for some reasonable posts too.
i see point in remove because this items is like bb's at merchants, even bb's is more hard too get now, because of painfull to get junk.
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I don't even know enough english words to say how totally retarded this idea is.
No, I don't have "BoS Thief" alt, never had any. Yet I consider making the crafting as the one and only way to get boomsticks and other itanz narrow-minded and I don't support it.
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I think if you ll have barter alt or character 1forAll you ll see difference in trading, when simply 10min of steal from bos converting to few ca and good guns. I m not supporting thievery, most weak part of game is exploit and nonrealistic features.
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And what players which have for example 5000+ of MFC, SEC or 5mmAP by crafting. What they will do? Suffer? And why? Because they spend a lot of time to craft it?
Its just stupid idea and you should let it be
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i dont think someone is able to craft sec after bug was closed, and if 100k sec gonna be wiped and this few kk of 5mm too this can make economy better. it is not possible to trade assault rifle or other 2tier stuff to merchants, but they are happy to take 5mm ap.
and merchants dont want to take 223 pistol or 7.62 ammo, but they ll take mfc, which one is too have few kk quantiny at server.
so 1 player simply buying gauss from sf shop for mfc or p90/ca and other stuff for 5mm ap.
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You didnt answer on my question
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i dont think someone is able to craft sec after bug was closed, and if 100k sec gonna be wiped and this few kk of 5mm too this can make economy better.
i have better idea. give us ur nicks and let devs delete them. this will make economy better, 1 less whining "crafter"
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We won't wipe stuff away. We were always going to have things go madly wrong with the economy because theres lots of new things to try and balance.
you could get about 10-15000 5mm ap ammo in an hour at 8caps a bullet that's around 80000-120000 caps .... i don't feel like its particularly awful mechanic or overpowered even.
Yeah, 80k caps an hour isn't enough ???
Lets be conservative and say 50 people on every hour, thats 4 million added to the game an hour, 96 million added every day and 2,880,000,000 added a month. With conservative estimates.
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and you forgot solar...there is no caps in traders and most of weapon you can loot from encounters ;]
i have 30k mfc, 20k 5mm, 5k sec and 1k ap rockets and what is wrong with it? nothing i worked hard to get it.
but solar please add ca mk2, ba, ncr ca, ea blue prints and if not just add ca mk2 bp cause ca is to weak, or add random 3rd lvl armor ca mk2 - ba - ea - ncr ca to glow lockers
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Lets be conservative and say 50 people on every hour, thats 4 million added to the game an hour, 96 million added every day and 2,880,000,000 added a month. With conservative estimates.
How is that bad given the fact that ammo = gameplay (at least the kind people want anyway)? I'm all for best weapons and top tier 100/100 armors being hard to get, but why ammo and drugs of all things? Having hard to get weapons and armors punishes people for dying and taking damage, making ammo hard or time-consuming to get punishes you for playing in general unless you're a pacifist, and even a pacifist has to defend himself from time to time.
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Because its ultimately a survival game. If everything is there for free then there is absolutely nothing to achieve (for people who aren't going to be taking part in PvP).
I have no problem with PvP activities delivering enough equipment to fuel the next few battles, such as the ammo rewards in TC, because those people will eat through lots of stuff
I'd even extend that to harder PvE (the only thing we have to facilitate this are encounters at the moment) where beating harder encounters should deliver you enough stuff to fuel your next few attempts.
But having something like stealing from encounters which was little risk, little effort and poured huge amounts into the game and could be done by anyone with absolutely no limits was rediculous.
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Because its ultimately a survival game. If everything is there for free then there is absolutely nothing to achieve (for people who aren't going to be taking part in PvP).
Does being a survival game entail being boring? I mean, people generally are having fun when they either are making progress or are struggling against a difficult obstacle to make progress. Now consider this - a large part of this game is fighting. Actually, every single activity a player can undertake to make progress (gain exp, get new items, gain fame or influence) requires fighting - about the only thing you can do that doesn't involve killing stuff is being a 100% doctor, and even then without fighting you have no people to heal. Fighting makes you expend ammunition and drugs real fast. You're saying that ammunition and drugs should be hard to get and require crafting aside from the occasional TC or PvE reward that only the best players (who don't really progress getting these rewards because endgame is about teamplay, not building up your survival equipment), but what progress is the player making when crafting these items? They're going to be lost the moment the player does something interesting anyway. That's not building on the survival theme, that's assaulting the playerbase with boring gameplay they neither want nor seek.
I have no problem with PvP activities delivering enough equipment to fuel the next few battles, such as the ammo rewards in TC, because those people will eat through lots of stuff
Well, these rewards are still far from compensating for what you have to bring to make a reasonable attempt at winning in TC - and even if they were enough, what about the losers? Back to where they started? But they don't want that, they already went through the entire survival-figure-it-out phase, they just want to try again and have some payback. So again, you're forcing people to reexperience gathering stuff (which gets easy really fast, but never stops being time consuming) instead of doing what they want to do. More grind, more bad gameplay, absolutely no survival stuff because once you learn the ropes nothing is a threat and even if you die you're way past the point of caring about that.
I'd even extend that to harder PvE (the only thing we have to facilitate this are encounters at the moment) where beating harder encounters should deliver you enough stuff to fuel your next few attempts.
Same thing really as with PvP, except this one is slightly easier on you, but more repetitive. You expend a lot of stuff, risk dying, receive negligible rewards when compared with the effort required to have a go at it. And once you're out of bullets (and you will be, fast), it's back to the same old grind you've learned to do effectively a year ago and are getting sick of. You don't even have to die/fail to be forced to do it.
But having something like stealing from encounters which was little risk, little effort and poured huge amounts into the game and could be done by anyone with absolutely no limits was rediculous.
I agree with this one, but having to do boring, easy work before you're able to actually play is no solution. Why can't the basic ammo and drugs be just readily available at the base facilities once you reach the stage of building your own outpost? I'm talking hiring a specialist that's going to stand there and give you some with X hour cooldown. You'd still have to be wary of dying, but at least your experience of the game would be way more fluent. Yes, that'd make those supplies as common as water and sand are irl, so NPC vendors shouldn't trade in them - but then again, the only other option is grind, and nobody really wants to grind just to play (because you can easily grind for hours and make no progress because of a single screwup).
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I dont think crafting now is boring, it is better than ever(i mean craft not obtaining BP) because when you PVP, PVE,trading you have much stuff to dissasemble so you have resources for craft.Problem only with ammo because you need powder for craft it, it can be solved by adding ammo dissasembling to obtain powder. Aslo can be team quests for ammo/stuff, faction like BoS or Enclave must resupply their members, more ammo in shops. Anything but not recieving ammo for free...
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If this game is about fun and survival, why not delete ammo?
Survival aspect is to figure out how to get a gun. Then when you have the gun, it has always infinite ammo. All problems solved.
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Skycast, crafting is boring as hell. Go here and click click click, go there and click click click... is this fun? No, at least not for me. I don't want to get stuff for free, .223, .22, 7.62, these types of ammunition can be obtained in a very entertaining way, by killing NPCs. Remember, there is always only one Raider with FN FAL, so 20-60 ammo from one encounter isn't that many. I even think that one crafter is able to mass produce more 7.62 than I can farm.
The problem with 5mm isn't that they are easy obtainable, but that they can be sold for huge ammount of caps at vendors. One active player using minigun or even avenger a lot needs like thousands of 5mm every day. I mean few days ago, we had intensive fights at Gecko, I lost 6 maybe 7 sniper rifles, ammo and armors. So I wasted almost 300 .223 which is ok. If I were playing with avenger or minigun having 400-500 ammo with me, I would wasted 3500 of 5mm. And it's only one evening. You still want to tell me that few 5mm should be hard to obtain? Don't forget that you need also weapons, armors and drugs. Should I really spend hours of digging, travelling, crafting just to be able to have 15 minute fun in some PvP?
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Go here and click click click, go there and click click click... is this fun? No, at least not for me.
It is not fun, but it is not a big problem to spent 1 hour for crafting and have stuff for few days.
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It is not fun, but it is not a big problem to spent 1 hour for crafting and have stuff for few days.
.... with armors this is true but with ammo cant craft enough for few days in 1 hour.
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IMO all-geared PvP fights with reinforcement groups and happening all 15-30 minutes shouldn't even be in the game.
I understand the fun PvP can be between gangs and I am glad you have fun with the game. But exactly here lies our problem.
You see, some people just want to fight. And they don't want to spend much time on the equipment for that. Also they want to fight often, and when they feel like it.
Other people want the RPG aspect of the game. Surviving the wastes, looking for something that could be useful and defeating hostile inhabitants of the wastes.
Now put those two kind of players in one game. This can't go right. You can find a balance between both but I think it's kinda hard.
nice_boat says everything in this game is about fighting. I say if everything is about fighting then we took a long jump away from the original fallout RPG.
But I also respect his and others wish to fight 24/7.
How to solve the everlasting issue? Beats me :-/
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nice_boat says everything in this game is about fighting. I say if everything is about fighting then we took a long jump away from the original fallout RPG.
But I also respect his and others wish to fight 24/7.
How to solve the everlasting issue? Beats me :-/
Once you realize it's not really an issue because the game encourages alts, multilogs and meta- stuff so much that RPG is next to impossible I think it becomes rather simple. I just can't see how 2238 could ever be more RPG-oriented than, say, Mount and Blade which is more or less an economic game with pretty complicated combat. And to be honest, this RPG delusion is responsible for the most retarded stuff like NCR army in Redding, parley etc. You can have an RPG-only server, you can have a competitive server revolving around expanding your economic base and faction combat but you can't really have both in one because that's two totally different styles of play.
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I don't think RP is impossible in FOnline 2238. Good thing is open world, you can go everywhere you want and do whatever you want. Bad thing is missing content, which would encourage a good RP. Details... like I don't really understand why 2238 has (sorry for that word) ugly random encounters only. Everywhere you can find only rocks, desert or ruins. Nothing more. TLA servers abound with variety of farms, tents or old gas stations encounters.
Probably it's very hard for developers to create a new content, but this would involve only few new maps and everything would look great. Also not only lockers, but items (even low tier) spawning inside caves and buildings would be cool. In the times of WWP when we were travelling to the south with our caravan, I was hoping that we encounter some player and that we either kill him or talk to him. You know, we wanted to experience some new adventure.
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I think player interaction was supposed to give that content at a great deal of it , trading , interacting ... umm .... alright who am i kidding combat is the content for now , you can't expect to add few quests and declare game has more content now. Sooner or later that get's old , forgot , boring ... so maybe players really need to make the content on their own. When 2238 drama happens on forum about ingame actions , those actions was the content.
Sounds weird , but has some point ... i think i should sleep now.
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Delusional ...
Personally each city is a battlefield for me , i actually don't go to make friends there but as soon as i enter city , i evaluate my surroundings for potential threat no matter what. I don't know is it me or the game.
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Probably it's very hard for developers to create a new content, but this would involve only few new maps and everything would look great. Also not only lockers, but items (even low tier) spawning inside caves and buildings would be cool. In the times of WWP when we were travelling to the south with our caravan, I was hoping that we encounter some player and that we either kill him or talk to him. You know, we wanted to experience some new adventure.
It is not a big deal to create content like maps and items by 2238 community, even we have many ideas and can help in their implementations but the biggest question if devs will accept any help or not ;D
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Once you realize it's not really an issue because the game encourages alts, multilogs and meta- stuff so much that RPG is next to impossible I think it becomes rather simple. I just can't see how 2238 could ever be more RPG-oriented than, say, Mount and Blade which is more or less an economic game with pretty complicated combat. And to be honest, this RPG delusion is responsible for the most retarded stuff like NCR army in Redding, parley etc. You can have an RPG-only server, you can have a competitive server revolving around expanding your economic base and faction combat but you can't really have both in one because that's two totally different styles of play.
In 2238, the pr0 pvpers are always whining about lack of balance, amount of time lost getting the few weapons and armors they use (which are no longer "powerful" items but rather "not shitty" items), etc.
"Mad Max Wannabes" and especially noobs spawn their one and only character in the middle of nowhere, get all excited when they grab a Mauser, run into towns looking for other people, feel it's a great step to get level 1 Gunsmith SG profession, etc.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: 2238 is not for pr0 pvpers, it demands too much metagaming, they feel the game "forces" them to alt and even cheat.
Instead of making a separated RPG-only server, I think players who want to have a pure PvP experience (which is nothing bad in itself) should look for alternative options such as FOnline: Battleground... And players who want to roleplay or at least experience some real "Fallout/postapo feel" could simply stay here and wait for devs to make new quest and other cool content, because devs wouldn't have to be paying attention to all the whining coming from the PvPers who complain because "this build is useless", "that build is op", "this item was nerfed too much" or "this new perk makes no fucking sense".
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We won't wipe stuff away. We were always going to have things go madly wrong with the economy because theres lots of new things to try and balance.
Yeah, 80k caps an hour isn't enough ???
Lets be conservative and say 50 people on every hour, thats 4 million added to the game an hour, 96 million added every day and 2,880,000,000 added a month. With conservative estimates.
thanks god there is no place to sell them
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what doo you mean ? all shops with bg weapon buying them, so weapon stock gonna consist from used by sf caravans/hub/vc guys broken ca and 5mm and rockets instead of alot miniguns, lsw, ca+ca helmets, p90, sniper rifles, rocket launchers, gatlings, alot other guns and some gauss at some merchants.
at least det ca+ca helmets from all this merchants can be scienced, but owerpowered few kk stock of 5mm is still owerpowered useless stock.
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The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".
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The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".
Killy, you sound like comedian from New Vegas, sorry :)
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The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".
There already is a server for "niceboat minded" players, FOnline: Battleground. Make char, talk to NPC to get max level, talk to another NPC to get uber gear. I have nothing against such a server, but I would like PvP apes to go have their PvP there, now that they have the chance, instead of telling us "mad max wannabes" to gtfo.
Why should RPers leave 2238 instead of PvP apes if PvP apes are who complain about lack of balance, overpowered/nerfed stuff, amount to time needed to get the few items they use, and "omg the game forces you to cheat!!1"?
Devs waste too much effort and time trying to make PvP apes happy, when this is impossible in 2238. According to Nice_Boat, the search for RP caused disasters like the NCR Army in Redding. But what about the "disasters" devs always make everytime they boost this, nerf that, add a cooldown here, add no cooldown to relog, etc? 2238 will never ever be a good PvP server because the great PvP warlords, who we are all supposed to listen to and obey, will always be annoyed with "silly content".
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I just realized that You people dont get what he is talking about. Either pure pvp server or pure RPG dont make sense. Its all about entertaining both kind of players, and its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm.
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I just realized that You people dont get what he is talking about. Either pure pvp server or pure RPG dont make sense. Its all about entertaining both kind of players, and its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm.
wat? You sure believe PvPers (interested in super pew pew with easy-to-get uber gunz and max-level-without-a-pain-in-the-ass-to-level characters) and RPers (interested in immersion, "wasteland feel", rich player-to-player interaction) can really coexist? 2238 is more than enough to realise it's impossible.
Oh and about "its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm", tell that to the powermetagamers who are always complaining because it's boring to level chars and hard to get good items...
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he is not interested in pure pvp server because at pure pvp server is not possible too shoot n00bs in ma mk2 with 10 mm pistol , or kill sniper in ma mk2 with sniper rifle. all use apa gauss and bozar at pvp server so playing there is not interesting.
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Why should RPers leave 2238 instead of PvP apes if PvP apes are who complain about lack of balance, overpowered/nerfed stuff, amount to time needed to get the few items they use, and "omg the game forces you to cheat!!1"?
Because 2238 has no anti-alt protection, no in-character behaviour enforcement, no GM-driven quests (as GMs are mostly policing the players because of the server rules which are pretty bad due to the fact that ultimately this server can't really decide what it wants to be) and the system itself encourages the use of multiple characters by a single person which makes them closer in function to units in a strategy game than characters in an RPG game. Oh, and there's that thing called town control and the fact that fighting is about the only thing to do once you've done all the quests and established your base for "survival".
Devs waste too much effort and time trying to make PvP apes happy, when this is impossible in 2238. According to Nice_Boat, the search for RP caused disasters like the NCR Army in Redding. But what about the "disasters" devs always make everytime they boost this, nerf that, add a cooldown here, add no cooldown to relog, etc? 2238 will never ever be a good PvP server because the great PvP warlords, who we are all supposed to listen to and obey, will always be annoyed with "silly content".
You know, the south is a giant ghost town and the north is blooming with life in comparison, so this statement is sort of detached from reality. Yes, the "we want RPG" crowd is very vocal in the forums, but the fact is they still are a minority. 2238 is essentially not a PvP server (that would indeed be Battleground), it's a strategy server where you balance gaining resources with fighting, because that's about the only thing the endgame offers. If the intentions were different than that - too bad, it is what it is and the devs can either accept that and make it work better as a strategy/teamplay game, or alienate the majority of the playerbase ever further by trying to strike a compromise which isn't really possible. The fact that they're persevering with the "compromise" approach is responsible for the dwindling playerbase - RPG players leave because of overwhelming metagame and being killed by PvPers, while PvPers get tired with excessive grind.
And do note that I'm not saying this game should entirely forsake the "survival" part - learning to survive alone and starting/joining a gang is a great tutorial for newcomers and a mildly entertaining alternative for loners, but it just doesn't work well once you learn the ropes and engage in endgame, so to speak.
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Delusional stuff again , " pvp'ers are the big whole problem " , " were forcing the server to go down " etc. etc. I think you should stop posting , each sentence is complete nonsense , eternauta , bambi etc. etc.
I am more than sure nobody of you will able to defend that opinion correctly , it's ultimately incorrect , doesn't make sense , so don't pull yourself in a pile of sh*t you can't crawl out.
I'm with nice boat on this.
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he is not interested in pure pvp server because at pure pvp server is not possible too shoot n00bs in ma mk2 with 10 mm pistol , or kill sniper in ma mk2 with sniper rifle. all use apa gauss and bozar at pvp server so playing there is not interesting.
well if we all had apa mk2 it would suck ass, but i would like to see those armors in game, but only if there were very hardly to craft.
pa - good met parts,hq fibers,hq ele parts,pneumatic system,small nuclear reactor baterry, activation key
hpa -pa, medium nuclear reactor baterry, carbonic plates, activation key, cooling system
apa -good met parts,hq fibers,hq ele parts,pneumatic system,large nuclear reactor baterry, carbonic plates, aiming system
, activation key, cooling system
apa mk2 - apa, hq cooling system, hq carbonic plates, activation key
all new parts should be placed in special encounters like gauss pistols.
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I just get 1500 mfc easily... too much easily, you can then trade it for caps/guns/armors, then economy does not have even sense.
Change something please, add caps to shops like two seasons before or make it harder to get (ammo).
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I just get 1500 mfc easily... too much easily, you can then trade it for caps/guns/armors, then economy does not have even sense.
Change something please, add caps to shops like two seasons before or make it harder to get (ammo).
The economy of NPC trading on 2238 has always made about as much sense as the economy of Soviet Union. You can't have players being responsible for 100% of demand and a large part of supply with preset prices and limited stock in NPC shops and hope for the best. NPC traders shouldn't even deal in common ammo, which yes, should be pretty easy to get (or else you end up with the "can't play, grinding ammo now" problem). The hilarious part here is the fact that player to player trade has always been good, but it suffers from the "lack of everything" problem which makes people refuse to trade and hold on to their supply themselves. Yet another example of "survival-RPG compromise" making this game less interesting.
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Because 2238 has no anti-alt protection, no in-character behaviour enforcement,
So? that is only an excuse for extreme metagaming and trolling. Just because you can do something that breaks immersion and ruins the game for other people, does that mean you are forced to do it?
no GM-driven quests (as GMs are mostly policing the players because of the server rules which are pretty bad due to the fact that ultimately this server can't really decide what it wants to be)
GMs are not always needed for roleplay. And GMs are policing players because many players like to do whatever they "need/are forced to" to play the game they want to play, which has nothing to do with Fallout.
and the system itself encourages the use of multiple characters by a single person which makes them closer in function to units in a strategy game than characters in an RPG game.
Yeah yeah, it "encourages" and even forces you to be a metagaming PvP ape right? It's how players choose to play. I have only one player, and I don't play much so it's low level. Do this harm the PvPers' gamestyle? Not at all.
I can't enter a town to trade or do a quest because there's TC going on with swarms, proxies, etc. Do PVPer's harm my gamestyle? Yes, they do.
Oh, and there's that thing called town control and the fact that fighting is about the only thing to do once you've done all the quests and established your base for "survival".
People are always complaining about TC. And what you said is false. You can always set up a project, a player-driven event, etc. Just because doesn't throw a big obvious "YO MAN YOU CAN DO THIS IN THIS SERVER" doesn't mean you can't do anything else apart from TC.
You know, the south is a giant ghost town and the north is blooming with life in comparison, so this statement is sort of detached from reality. Yes, the "we want RPG" crowd is very vocal in the forums, but the fact is they still are a minority.
WWP project: make a project in Redding, enemies ruin it. Make an exodus to the south, south is full of trolls who exploit NPC AI, bombing cooldown, etc. Retire to a hidden base.
2238 is essentially not a PvP server (that would indeed be Battleground), it's a strategy server where you balance gaining resources with fighting, because that's about the only thing the endgame offers. If the intentions were different than that - too bad, it is what it is and the devs can either accept that and make it work better as a strategy/teamplay game, or alienate the majority of the playerbase ever further by trying to strike a compromise which isn't really possible. The fact that they're persevering with the "compromise" approach is responsible for the dwindling playerbase - RPG players leave because of overwhelming metagame and being killed by PvPers, while PvPers get tired with excessive grind.
2238 doesn't work as a PvP server, and doesn't work as a "strategy" server either. If it "demands" so much metagaming, then it's not what the game is supposed to be, imho.
And do note that I'm not saying this game should entirely forsake the "survival" part - learning to survive alone and starting/joining a gang is a great tutorial for newcomers and a mildly entertaining alternative for loners, but it just doesn't work well once you learn the ropes, so to speak.
Kinda true, however I think the "survival" part is simply something a bit hard to work on, while a perfectly balanced PvP game is really impossible unless you go for something like Battleground (instant max level, instant items).
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So? that is only an excuse for extreme metagaming and trolling. Just because you can do something that breaks immersion and ruins the game for other people, does that mean you are forced to do it?
Following this logic, Quake 3 is a perfectly viable platform for roleplaying.
GMs are not always needed for roleplay. And GMs are policing players because many players like to do whatever they "need/are forced to" to play the game they want to play, which has nothing to do with Fallout.
That's the fault of the design, not the players. The thing is people who "want to play the game their way" are attracted by actual gameplay, while the RPG crowd is attracted by the Fallout brand which results in endless whine, delusions about what this server is and suggestions that are simply bad for general gameplay. If you wanted to make 2238 really cater to the RPG demographic, you'd have to basically redesign the whole thing. That'd mean scrapping 2/3 of the project, I highly doubt the odds of that happening are high.
Yeah yeah, it "encourages" and even forces you to be a metagaming PvP ape right? It's how players choose to play. I have only one player, and I don't play much so it's low level. Do this harm the PvPers' gamestyle? Not at all.
If something can be done, it will be done. If it makes you progress in the game faster, it becomes the dominant style of play. The fact that PvPing is the dominant style of play is reason enough to call 2238 a strategy/teamplay game.
I can't enter a town to trade or do a quest because there's TC going on with swarms, proxies, etc. Do PVPer's harm my gamestyle? Yes, they do.
Because this game is not friendly for people who just want to do quests, trade and roleplay because of the way it was designed. Would you complain about people blowing you up in Q3 if you wanted to roleplay?
People are always complaining about TC. And what you said is false. You can always set up a project, a player-driven event, etc. Just because doesn't throw a big obvious "YO MAN YOU CAN DO THIS IN THIS SERVER" doesn't mean you can't do anything else apart from TC.
People aren't complaining about the idea of TC, they are complaining about balance, specifics etc. Somehow, I don't see that many threads discussing the best way of roleplaying here... I wonder why? Because the notion of discussing what is the best way of roleplaying a raider/VCC/whatever on this server is so ridiculous, outlandish and impossible nobody even bothers to do that.
WWP project: make a project in Redding, enemies ruin it. Make an exodus to the south, south is full of trolls who exploit NPC AI, bombing cooldown, etc. Retire to a hidden base.
Well, WWP project was a military operation which failed, that's it. Yet another argument pointing to the fact that this game is all about strategy and teamplay.
2238 doesn't work as a PvP server, and doesn't work as a "strategy" server either. If it "demands" so much metagaming, then it's not what the game is supposed to be, imho.
But it does work as a strategy server because people are playing it that way. Yes, it is terribly imbalanced because of the underlying "but it's a survival/RPG game too!" schizophrenia, but it generally works. On the other hand, people can't play it as an RPG game in unrestricted environments at all, because the design doesn't allow it because you end up with a bullet to the head.
Kinda true, however I think the "survival" part is simply something a bit hard to work on, while a perfectly balanced PvP game is really impossible unless you go for something like Battleground (instant max level, instant items).
A balanced PvP game is perfectly possible, you just have to keep in mind it's a strategy game and balance the strategic layer in the endgame accordingly. The tactical level is actually very well balanced right now. And the survival part is actually the easiest part to work on, because all you need to do is adding content without worrying too much about balance and inserting gameplay hints into dialogue in a way that doesn't break the fourth wall.
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RP is best part of game, remove TC at all.
RP is awesome at 2238, i enjoy it from childhood
Nothing can describe RP at 2238 at all, it is awesome in all points of view, TC pointless at all, join 2238 and enjoy pure pve and rp
2238 is awesome, i spend there all day dooing RP, i m not glad that there is pvp and pk but server is great
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Following this logic, Quake 3 is a perfectly viable platform for roleplaying.
I have never player Quake 3, so I'd honestly like you to explain this statement.
the RPG crowd is attracted by the Fallout brand which results in endless whine, delusions about what this server is and suggestions that are simply bad for general gameplay. If you wanted to make 2238 really cater to the RPG demographic, you'd have to basically redesign the whole thing. That'd mean scrapping 2/3 of the project, I highly doubt the odds of that happening are high.
However, PvPers/metagamers whine a lot too! Because farming is not as easy as before, because there are no detonator parts, because of a lot of different reasons. And when Solar said "TC, let's flesh this out", the result was a long thread full of trolling and many "current system sucks, let's go back to x sessions ago". It seems making a good PvP/strategy server requires scrapping a great part of the project or at least going back quite a lot of steps...
If something can be done, it will be done. If it makes you progress in the game faster, it becomes the dominant style of play. The fact that PvPing is the dominant style of play is reason enough to call 2238 a strategy/teamplay game.
But that's not the dev's or the game's fault, it's the metagamers', who don't want to have fun but to dominate. If metagamers knew they could instantly win their next TC fight by clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times, they'd do it. And complain about it at the same time.
Because this game is not friendly for people who just want to do quests, trade and roleplay because of the way it was designed. Would you complain about people blowing you up in Q3 if you wanted to roleplay?
Uhm, Quake 3 again, sorry. Anyway, I understand the game should be "dangerous", but a great swarm or proxy army full of powerful items doesn't look like "Fallouty danger".
People aren't complaining about the idea of TC, they are complaining about balance, specifics etc. Somehow, I don't see that many threads discussing the best way of roleplaying here... I wonder why? Because...
No, it's because PvPer's gamestyle makes it almost impossible to RP, so there's no real point in discussin RP when you don't have many possibilities in it.
Well, WWP project was a military operation which failed, that's it.
How? roleplaying a town mayor or a biologist studying the Wanamingos or a town guard with a crappy Assault Rifle is a military operation?
But it does work as a strategy server because people are playing it that way. Yes, it is terribly imbalanced because of the underlying "but it's a survival/RPG game too!" schizophrenia, but it generally works.
How exactly does that "schizophrenia" harm your strategy gamestyle?
On the other hand, people can't play it as an RPG game in unrestricted environments at all, because the design doesn't allow it because you end up with a bullet to the head.
Pretty much sounds just like what I said, metagaming harms roleplaying, and not the other way round. I think it was avv who said that "PKing is metagaming", because you know the game design makes it safer to PK everyone. Metagaming can't be fully controlled, players "should" try to stick to Fallout instead, but it seems the only thing they liked in Fallout was the graphics.
I understand metagaming gives you a lot of advantages, but this is a game, not real life. I fail to understand why players can't just enjoy the wonderful thing FOnline actually is, by sharing a common space with other Fallout fans.
A balanced PvP game is perfectly possible, you just have to keep in mind it's a strategy game and balance the strategic layer in the endgame accordingly. The tactical level is actually very well balanced right now. And the survival part is actually the easiest part to work on, because all you need to do is adding content without worrying too much about balance and inserting gameplay hints into dialogue in a way that doesn't break the fourth wall.
I see most people shit on new quests and "content", see quests just as a way to get their first caps or xp, and even exploit them for a base. They pay a lot more attention to new/reworked perks, traits, builds in general. 2238 players tend to not care about the "survival" part, they just see it as the annoying part you must go through before you can join "real" PvP. (I understand you just said this game must not scrap this part and I'm glad you think that - I am talking about a general tendency, not about you).
They see victory in TC/PvP as a goal they must reach. Everything that lies between them and that goal should be done as quickly and efficiently as possible, even if it means doing boring activities. Unless there's some pretty big cultural difference going on here, I don't think this is how "entertainment" and "fun" works. I connect to FOnline looking for fun and entertainment, but I usually have problems playing the game the way I want because there's people who act like FOnline was their work or at least some kind of chore. These people are usually complaining about game features, balance, nerfed/op'ed stuff, etc. I personally don't feel I *really* need any technical change in the game at all.
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I have never player Quake 3, so I'd honestly like you to explain this statement.
Well, roleplaying is a style of play, not a quality of the system itself. To roleplay you actually don't need anything more than a text chat, but that doesn't mean roleplaying will work in every setting. To roleplay, you need a limited group of people who agree on a set of accepted behaviours - which is impossible on 2238 because the nature of the game is open. Therefore it's the equivalent of trying to run a DnD session in a pub with a bunch of drunken chavs who don't even know who the fuck you are. You end up getting frustrated and/or losing a few teeth in the process. That's why I said that Q3 is almost on the same level as 2238 - you can try roleplaying if you're stubborn enough, but you won't be having a good time and people will generally mess with you in ways you don't want. The only way around that is making the access to the server restricted and keeping people who metagame or do out of character things out, just like you would do when selecting people to play pnp rpg with.
However, PvPers/metagamers whine a lot too! Because farming is not as easy as before, because there are no detonator parts, because of a lot of different reasons. And when Solar said "TC, let's flesh this out", the result was a long thread full of trolling and many "current system sucks, let's go back to x sessions ago". It seems making a good PvP/strategy server requires scrapping a great part of the project or at least going back quite a lot of steps...
Scrapping what exactly? It's all about adjustments - adjusting the endgame economic game for it to require less grind and balancing weapons and stats (already done) and TC (pending). The problem here is that I remember TC being altered with stuff like parley to cater for the minority who wants to roleplay everywhere despite the fact it's just hopeless here unless you're running a small community with events in your outpost or stuff like that. The problem here is that even if the devs removed TC, you guys would still be getting trolled/PKed etc, unless the devs started to somehow enforce 1char/person rule and adjusted the game mechanics (which basically force you to treat characters as units rather than, well, characters) to facilitate that.
But that's not the dev's or the game's fault, it's the metagamers', who don't want to have fun but to dominate. If metagamers knew they could instantly win their next TC fight by clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times, they'd do it. And complain about it at the same time.
But it is the game's fault, if it's designed so that metagamers are the most successful players, than it simply makes metagaming the proper way to play it - it's game theory 101. If, as you say, the game made you win the next TC fight by clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times, than clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times would be the proper way to win at it which in turn would make it a pretty terrible game.
Uhm, Quake 3 again, sorry. Anyway, I understand the game should be "dangerous", but a great swarm or proxy army full of powerful items doesn't look like "Fallouty danger".
Well, as I've said, the problem is 2238 can't be "Fallouty" without going through a total redesign making using great swarms or proxy armies full of powerful items a non-viable way of playing it. It's just a mmo strategy game with Fallout coating.
No, it's because PvPer's gamestyle makes it almost impossible to RP, so there's no real point in discussin RP when you don't have many possibilities in it.
Exactly. And there isn't many possibilities, because the game punishes you for RPing (you die a lot) and encourages meta- and power- gaming by design. It's just made that way, it's not the fault of the playerbase. If the devs didn't want it ending up like that, than they messed something up because that's exactly the way it is.
How? roleplaying a town mayor or a biologist studying the Wanamingos or a town guard with a crappy Assault Rifle is a military operation?
It becomes a military operation the moment you decide to secure a TC town. The thing is roleplaying a town major and a biologist and carrying assault rifles isn't the way to secure a TC town, so the fall of this project was only natural. Again - blame the design, not the players.
How exactly does that "schizophrenia" harm your strategy gamestyle?
It means that features like parley get implemented and the endgame economy keeps suffering because of those survivalist delusions. Nobody with a bunch of 24 lvl chars is trying to survive, they're fighting for control of the towns because the game is set up that way - on the other hand, the economic part of the game which is supposed to facilitate this fighting seems to be geared more for this virtually nonexistent RPG aspect. It's just bad and it's a screaming shame the devs can't decide whether to go for the pure RPG or pure strategy/teamplay genre. I'd be happy either way but them trying to do both at once is just horribad.
Pretty much sounds just like what I said, metagaming harms roleplaying, and not the other way round. I think it was avv who said that "PKing is metagaming", because you know the game design makes it safer to PK everyone. Metagaming can't be fully controlled, players "should" try to stick to Fallout instead, but it seems the only thing they liked in Fallout was the graphics.
I understand metagaming gives you a lot of advantages, but this is a game, not real life. I fail to understand why players can't just enjoy the wonderful thing FOnline actually is, by sharing a common space with other Fallout fans.
Once again - the game gives you feedback when you do something "good" (you gain stuff) and when you do something "bad" (you die and lose stuff). The vast majority of people wants to "win", and if "winning" means metagaming and PKing and whatnot, than metagaming and PKing it is. It really is that simple.
I see most people shit on new quests and "content", see quests just as a way to get their first caps or xp, and even exploit them for a base. They pay a lot more attention to new/reworked perks, traits, builds in general. 2238 players tend to not care about the "survival" part, they just see it as the annoying part you must go through before you can join "real" PvP. (I understand you just said this game must not scrap this part and I'm glad you think that - I am talking about a general tendency, not about you).
That's another problem - those quests are so weak in terms of rewards out of fear of causing imbalance in the endgame that they're mostly worthless for players who want to use them to learn the game and they basically give you no knowledge of how to play the game to "win". They're just hanging there, mostly neglected, without any real connection with other gameplay mechanics. About the only quest that is somewhat good is the Metzger suitcase one, because it gives you a nice XP reward and it teaches you to move around unprotected towns without your teammates without getting your ass blown off. The problem is you can only try it once, which in turn makes most new players fail it which is bad because they have the most to gain in trying to do it multiple times (they die = they learn and have to try a different approach). See what I'm getting at?
They see victory in TC/PvP as a goal they must reach. Everything that lies between them and that goal should be done as quickly and efficiently as possible, even if it means doing boring activities. Unless there's some pretty big cultural difference going on here, I don't think this is how "entertainment" and "fun" works. I connect to FOnline looking for fun and entertainment, but I usually have problems playing the game the way I want because there's people who act like FOnline was their work or at least some kind of chore. These people are usually complaining about game features, balance, nerfed/op'ed stuff, etc. I personally don't feel I *really* need any technical change in the game at all.
Well, those people treat it as a competitive game and they want to win and to have a fair, entertaining contest. In winning such contest they find fun and entertainment - and they complain about lack of balance or some stuff being a chore, because it ultimately makes them enjoy it less. They're complaining about specifics (ie. "this car should have a more powerful engine"), while you're complaining about the general design (ie. "I don't want a car, I want a goddamn horse").
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I just hope no GM or dev reads this discussion for their own sanity.
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Well, roleplaying is a style of play, not a quality of the system itself. To roleplay you actually don't need anything more than a text chat, but that doesn't mean roleplaying will work in every setting. To roleplay, you need a limited group of people who agree on a set of accepted behaviours - which is impossible on 2238 because the nature of the game is open.
In a way, what you say is not false, but Quake is a FPS while FOnline allows players to develop characters with different skills and characteristics, etc.
Therefore it's the equivalent of trying to run a DnD session in a pub with a bunch of drunken chavs who don't even know who the fuck you are. You end up getting frustrated and/or losing a few teeth in the process. That's why I said that Q3 is almost on the same level as 2238...
However, FOnline:2238 is an online version of Fallout, which is a RPG. No one said "this is RP server" like in Wasteland 2155 for example, but it comes from a RPG game and no one said "this is PvP/strategy server" either.
So the point is, 2238 is not a bar and is not Quake. It's "Fallout Online", and since Fallout was RPG, I don't get why people play it as an strategy game, or PvP battleground. Features encourage that? Yeah, but not so much. There is TC, all right, but maintaining the economical infraestructure your gang needs to be really active in TC demands too much time spent in boring activities. And to start that infraestructure (first base), some players abused a quest. This makes me think there's something wrong with playing 2238 *entirely* as a Fallout Age of Empire.
Scrapping what exactly? It's all about adjustments...
For example influence, and if Solar had not mentioned it on his post, that "TC quest" system he wanted to implement. They took out relog timer, they implemented Silent Death and then nerfed it... Too much effort is wasted implementing and/or deleting PvP related stuff, or at least because of (usually high level, tier 3, faction) PvP. Of course, you can say "but it's still about adjustments", but the playerbase is never satisfied with adjustments, and there always is some problem because this or that feature clashes with how they wish to play... or their gamestyle totally ruins the features.
But it is the game's fault, if it's designed so that metagamers are the most successful players, than it simply makes metagaming the proper way to play it - it's game theory 101. If, as you say, the game made you win the next TC fight by clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times, than clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times would be the proper way to win at it which in turn would make it a pretty terrible game.
Do we really disagree? Metagaming is always the best way to play and win, otherwise there would not be any metagaming going on. I don't think the "click the same rock 6000000500004 times" is that much of an exaggeration, because, as said, you can see metagamers complaining often. This makes FOnline a pretty terrible game to play that way.
Well, as I've said, the problem is 2238 can't be "Fallouty" without going through a total redesign making using great swarms or proxy armies full of powerful items a non-viable way of playing it. It's just a mmo strategy game with Fallout coating.
Yet people get tired of swarms (both sides of the fight even though some wouldn't believe this), and both swarms and proxies makes your enemy rage (fuck SOT this, fuck SOT that). How much fun can you really get from a game (or should I say, a competitive part of a game) where your enemy rages and with a reason? Sounds a bit childish to me.
Exactly. And there isn't many possibilities, because the game punishes you for RPing (you die a lot) and encourages meta- and power- gaming by design. It's just made that way, it's not the fault of the playerbase. If the devs didn't want it ending up like that, than they messed something up because that's exactly the way it is.
The game will always have flaws and metagaming will always be possible. Of course this games gives you quite some tools to play like that but as said, metagamers whine, and RPers whine because of metagamers. The game gives you the tools to troll other people or be ridiculously efficient to the point of boredom, but it doesn't really "force" you to play like that. I think it's like having a "have fun and maybe sometimes win" buttom and a "win often, but get bored" buttom, and people keep choosing the second option.
It becomes a military operation the moment you decide to secure a TC town. The thing is roleplaying a town major and a biologist and carrying assault rifles isn't the way to secure a TC town, so the fall of this project was only natural. Again - blame the design, not the players.
Rather than that, people wanted to RP, but other people, PvPers, didn't want to sacrifice a town even though the project gave them an alternative way of playing by adding player-made content, so they destroyed it. And then some PvPers say "but I play like this because there's not much content!".
It means that features like parley get implemented and the endgame economy keeps suffering because of those survivalist delusions. Nobody with a bunch of 24 lvl chars is trying to survive, they're fighting for control of the towns because the game is set up that way - on the other hand, the economic part of the game which is supposed to facilitate this fighting seems to be geared more for this virtually nonexistent RPG aspect. It's just bad and it's a screaming shame the devs can't decide whether to go for the pure RPG or pure strategy/teamplay genre. I'd be happy either way but them trying to do both at once is just horribad.
Are you saying that features that go against PvP/strategy gameplay and are instead "geared more for this virtually nonexistent RPG aspect" are implemented, while at the same time saying game mechanics support metagaming/PvP/strategy and punishes RP? Or did I misunderstand?
And yes, choosing a specific "genre" would make everything easier, but if this playerbase didn't have such a desire for pixelated glory and wealth, it'd go smoothly, I believe.
Once again - the game gives you feedback when you do something "good" (you gain stuff) and when you do something "bad" (you die and lose stuff). The vast majority of people wants to "win", and if "winning" means metagaming and PKing and whatnot, than metagaming and PKing it is. It really is that simple.
Yet, people complain, get bored, leave...
That's another problem - those quests are so weak in terms of rewards out of fear of causing imbalance in the endgame that they're mostly worthless for players who want to use them to learn the game and they basically give you no knowledge of how to play the game to "win". They're just hanging there, mostly neglected, without any real connection with other gameplay mechanics. About the only quest that is somewhat good is the Metzger suitcase one, because it gives you a nice XP reward and it teaches you to move around unprotected towns without your teammates without getting your ass blown off. The problem is you can only try it once, which in turn makes most new players fail it which is bad because they have the most to gain in trying to do it multiple times (they die = they learn and have to try a different approach). See what I'm getting at?
It's no surprised that quest are flawed when devs have to pay attention to a swarm of PvPers complaining about PvP stuff. This makes devs pay less attention to quests and similar stuff, which makes PvPers and players in general pay less attention to the existing quests and similar stuff. Vicious circle in which devs are not *the* guys to blame, imo.
Well, those people treat it as a competitive game and they want to win and to have a fair, entertaining contest. In winning such contest they find fun and entertainment - and they complain about lack of balance or some stuff being a chore, because it ultimately makes them enjoy it less. They're complaining about specifics (ie. "this car should have a more powerful engine"), while you're complaining about the general design (ie. "I don't want a car, I want a goddamn horse").
Except I don't complain about general design, because as said I never feel the game itself is not for me. You could say I don't like the general design of other servers such as Requiem (where you can open three windows or some shit like that) or Battleground (were you truly shouldn't exepct RP), but it's not the case in 2238.
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So what is your point after all this ? I just can't wrap my finger around it.
For example influence, and if Solar had not mentioned it on his post, that "TC quest" system he wanted to implement. They took out relog timer, they implemented Silent Death and then nerfed it... Too much effort is wasted implementing and/or deleting PvP related stuff..
I don't think it's PvP'er fault.
That is for developers to decide and reminder many of the players have been in denial why some things have been changed at all , like nobody asks to buff some lazer rifle. What solar does , buffs a lazer rifle then there is major whine on forum about how strong it is , then solar wastes time on arguing with them. Like now , solar wants to buff fineese , buff helmet protection , buff right between the eyes in the end if you do the math of all critical chance changes between all three buffed versions , pointless and it equals right between the eyes perk a must , all builds without that with a significant disadvantage.
Nobody asked for that ... no offense solar , this is your game and you develop it but i think your effort could be used much more efficiently , if you wouldn't listen to all whiners/trolls on forum that provides garbage feedback.
I'm not saying it's developer fault , if they like doing changes they want , their enjoying their hobby how can you judge that ?
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However, FOnline:2238 is an online version of Fallout, which is a RPG. No one said "this is RP server" like in Wasteland 2155 for example, but it comes from a RPG game and no one said "this is PvP/strategy server" either.
Well, it started as a "faction mod", so the direction things would go was pretty obvious from day one. It's basically the fatal flaw of this game - everything created with roleplay in mind will ultimately fail because of the possibility to use alts for efficiency, no enforcement of any roleplaying standards and existence of TC.
So the point is, 2238 is not a bar and is not Quake. It's "Fallout Online", and since Fallout was RPG, I don't get why people play it as an strategy game, or PvP battleground. Features encourage that? Yeah, but not so much. There is TC, all right, but maintaining the economical infraestructure your gang needs to be really active in TC demands too much time spent in boring activities. And to start that infraestructure (first base), some players abused a quest. This makes me think there's something wrong with playing 2238 *entirely* as a Fallout Age of Empire.
Eh, this again. Yes, it's called Fallout, it takes from the Fallout setting but it's closer to Age of Empires than Fallout if you want to have your characters survive/kill other characters with less effort and let's just leave it at that.
For example influence, and if Solar had not mentioned it on his post, that "TC quest" system he wanted to implement. They took out relog timer, they implemented Silent Death and then nerfed it... Too much effort is wasted implementing and/or deleting PvP related stuff, or at least because of (usually high level, tier 3, faction) PvP. Of course, you can say "but it's still about adjustments", but the playerbase is never satisfied with adjustments, and there always is some problem because this or that feature clashes with how they wish to play... or their gamestyle totally ruins the features.
The thing is most PvP players are like "leave our shit alone" most of the time, I think people wouldn't complain too much if the current weapon balance (or even that of 2009 for that matter) was left alone and unmodified and if the TC system of the previous session was implemented without the militia or with a nerfed militia. The biggest mistake devs made was messing with TC at all and listening to the constant forum whine about weapons and shit - it really worked back then, it should've been left alone. Just make a cutoff point, say "this is TC: Gold, we're not touching that ever again". I've been saying this since late 2009 and somehow no matter how hard Solar tried people were always whining about SG being imbalanced, or BG being imbalanced or throw being imbalanced. Screw that, you don't need perfect, diamond balance to have a good game - actually, most good games aren't perfectly balanced. Just leave it at that and move on.
Do we really disagree? Metagaming is always the best way to play and win, otherwise there would not be any metagaming going on. I don't think the "click the same rock 6000000500004 times" is that much of an exaggeration, because, as said, you can see metagamers complaining often. This makes FOnline a pretty terrible game to play that way.
Yeah, well, that's what I was implying. But that doesn't change the fact it's the correct way of playing it if you want to win/make progress. In a good game, the fun strategy is the winning strategy - in a bad game, the boring strategy may be the best making the game boring in turn. Sadly, 2238 is the latter case when it comes to grand strategy - its saving grace is the tactical level and perhaps, to some extent, that little touch of Fallout magic that comes with the graphics and sounds.
Yet people get tired of swarms (both sides of the fight even though some wouldn't believe this), and both swarms and proxies makes your enemy rage (fuck SOT this, fuck SOT that). How much fun can you really get from a game (or should I say, a competitive part of a game) where your enemy rages and with a reason? Sounds a bit childish to me.
It's not really rage, in fighting game community it's called salt. People lose, they get salty and complain and appear mad, but they really aren't. If they are, they sort of drop the game - but the sort of common cause of dropping the game isn't SoT's tactics, BBS' tactics or any other kind of tactics, it's the fact that it's a bad game in which the winning strategy is doing 80% boring stuff and 20% fun stuff. There really isn't any way around it except redesigning the whole thing or adjusting the grind factor in economy so that it's 80% fun, 20% boredom.
The game will always have flaws and metagaming will always be possible. Of course this games gives you quite some tools to play like that but as said, metagamers whine, and RPers whine because of metagamers. The game gives you the tools to troll other people or be ridiculously efficient to the point of boredom, but it doesn't really "force" you to play like that. I think it's like having a "have fun and maybe sometimes win" buttom and a "win often, but get bored" buttom, and people keep choosing the second option.
Rather than that, people wanted to RP, but other people, PvPers, didn't want to sacrifice a town even though the project gave them an alternative way of playing by adding player-made content, so they destroyed it. And then some PvPers say "but I play like this because there's not much content!".
Well, the thing is losing is generally not fun, it's more frustrating than the grind unless you really can't take it anymore (and Solar seems to be upping the ante each wipe). I think most of the playerbase has already developed a sort of love-hate relationship with this game - everyone sees how much of a grindfest it is, but they keep playing because a piece of it is fun and addictive.
Are you saying that features that go against PvP/strategy gameplay and are instead "geared more for this virtually nonexistent RPG aspect" are implemented, while at the same time saying game mechanics support metagaming/PvP/strategy and punishes RP? Or did I misunderstand?
Yeah, but I was talking "minor" features and value adjustments. Even if getting a single Avenger took 7 days and feeding it with ammo took 7 weeks, there'd still be that one dude holding his friggin' beast of a minigun with a shit eating grin on his face and drilling you with bullets. And you'd be the last two remaining people on the server. Why? Because he can. And because he'd get the loot from the box, and you wouldn't - so he'd think he won. The only way to stop some version of this scenario from happening would be defining "victory" in the game by something else than taking a town or hoarding items, which in the case of 2238 seems rather impossible.
And yes, choosing a specific "genre" would make everything easier, but if this playerbase didn't have such a desire for pixelated glory and wealth, it'd go smoothly, I believe.
Yet, people complain, get bored, leave...
Why are you putting the blame on the playerbase? It's not their fault. It's the game that attracts a specific playerbase, not the other way around. If the people playing 2238 have this desire for pixelated glory and wealth, it simply means that the game is best suited for people desiring pixelated glory and wealth. And do note that this happens even though the Fallout brand attracts roleplayers first and foremost. Yet, they're a minority here - coincidence? I think not.
It's no surprised that quest are flawed when devs have to pay attention to a swarm of PvPers complaining about PvP stuff. This makes devs pay less attention to quests and similar stuff, which makes PvPers and players in general pay less attention to the existing quests and similar stuff. Vicious circle in which devs are not *the* guys to blame, imo.
Once again, the devs should've left PvP alone a long time ago and were told to leave it alone numerous times over these 3 years. Sadly, they went on a rampage of knee-jerk reaction nerfs and buffs that didn't really make or break the game and actually achieved nothing. The only thing PvPers were always asking for was endgame (note that I'm saying endgame, not beginning stage, no Avengers-lying-on-the-streets stuff) economy to be tailored for PvP because most people who engage in endgame end up doing PvP or trading with people doing PvP. It's not even like doing that would break the game for loners, roleplayers and other minorities that somehow find fun in tagging along - if anything, you guys could receive a bit more warmth from gang members. I mean, back in 2009 gangs were handing out weapons to newbies because they were easy to get for the gangs, but not for the newbies. It was all about know-how. Nowadays, nobody gives anybody shit because everything's still easy to get, but it requires know-how and ridiculous amounts of your time. Hilariously enough, the loner/Mad Max playstyle was way more popular back then.
Except I don't complain about general design, because as said I never feel the game itself is not for me. You could say I don't like the general design of other servers such as Requiem (where you can open three windows or some shit like that) or Battleground (were you truly shouldn't exepct RP), but it's not the case in 2238.
Well, you complain about metagaming and PvP apes and whatnot, and the people you complain about are the most "successful" in this game in every way you can actually measure... so yeah. I think you're sort of like that guy who enjoys running people over and ultimately getting busted by the police in GTA games instead of doing the missions and following the story - a little out of place, but definitely enjoying himself. I don't think that's really bad, but on the other hand I don't understand why do you insist on your way of playing being the dominant one while in reality it's just a bit of a forced addition. And believe me, if this game lacked TC, punished you for alting, had some code of staying in character and had some sort of progressing global story I would be saying the same thing to people who just want to shoot some pixels and hoard moar goldz.
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Nice_Boat, don't get me wrong, I do think your explanations are faithful to the 2238 reality, yet reading all you've typed still makes me thinks: I like RP and it's ok but a bit out of place, all right, but at the same time there are metagamers who, althought they're currently the most successful guys in the server, would stick to their playing style "even if getting a single Avenger took 7 days and feeding it with ammo took 7 weeks"... Maybe I'm an idiot but that sounds "ok, but out of place" too.
Anyway. I usually never say this, but let's agree to disagree. It has really been nice reading what you have said, and with this discussion I have learned you're not the idiot I thought you were, although I know some actually idiot guys I can compare you with now, and it has helped ;)
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(looking for a facepalm pic, double facepalm would do the job too)
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No need for that, those are excellent posts.
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Nice_Boat, don't get me wrong, I do think your explanations are faithful to the 2238 reality, yet reading all you've typed still makes me thinks: I like RP and it's ok but a bit out of place, all right, but at the same time there are metagamers who, althought they're currently the most successful guys in the server, would stick to their playing style "even if getting a single Avenger took 7 days and feeding it with ammo took 7 weeks"... Maybe I'm an idiot but that sounds "ok, but out of place" too.
Anyway. I usually never say this, but let's agree to disagree. It has really been nice reading what you have said, and with this discussion I have learned you're not the idiot I thought you were, although I know some actually idiot guys I can compare you with now, and it has helped ;)
I'm happy we both see where we stand right now. As for the "you are an idiot" part - I've always respected you except for this one time when you talked military stuff without knowing anything about military stuff ;D Anyway, let's hope Solar reads this and makes some adjustments, and I wouldn't even be bitching if things didn't go 100% my way, just finally recognize the issue and fix it is all I'm asking for ^^
And to end this post in a positive way - just wait for 2155, it's coming and you're going to love it, lol.
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Might as well get rid of thieves completely. This game is going down the crapper fast. Too many whiners.
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thieves finally moved up to towns, but system need to be revorked.
they only can rob afk player/trading players and this is to low list of thievery activity. add some suggestions :D
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stop crying you dont have bos/enclave thief
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Hi, i am wiener, i cant stop to say that.
doo you have problem ? DOO WE HAVE PROBLEM ? :D
your comment is silly, sorry, i cant resist.
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I think it's pretty clear what fonline is, it's a reality simulator. It allows humanity's true nature shine through via griefing and rp.
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maybe sameone doesnt like to craft, i say NO to this suggestion.
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bos/enclave/master army thieves still wipe-out merchants stock, nothing changed :(
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Nope, they not :)
Stop crying man it's one of the nicest way to get easy stuff, you should cry about sneakers and sucking tc.
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Nope, they not :)
Stop crying man it's one of the nicest way to get easy stuff, you should cry about sneakers and sucking tc.
tc is fine for me :D
got killed by sneaker burster once and 2 or 3 times in ncr by grenadier :D
i dont like easy ways :D alot trolls gonna be removed if they cant steal, and if slavery gonna have low amount of caps like all other features it is gonna be better...
10k caps for 1 slave run , wtf !
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bos/enclave/master army thieves still wipe-out merchants stock, nothing changed :(
when the crafting system won't be a steaming pile of shit, then i will stop stealing from BOS/Enclave.
if TC is fine for you, then you have a problem.
10k for a slave run? what's the frequency of that happening? i want to know.
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when the crafting system won't be a steaming pile of shit, then i will stop stealing from BOS/Enclave.
if TC is fine for you, then you have a problem.
10k for a slave run? what's the frequency of that happening? i want to know.
your life is full of problems
i m not quake counter strike player, fu, so tc is ok at all, if you dont see solar's tc announcement you blind.
10k for slave run ? why do i gonna tell you ? your slaver build is so unpro ?
sorry, but you suck shit and worst.
crafting if fine as it is, stop crying and craft or farm your det stuff ;)
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when the crafting system won't be a steaming pile of shit, then i will stop stealing from BOS/Enclave.
if TC is fine for you, then you have a problem.
10k for a slave run? what's the frequency of that happening? i want to know.
The cooldown on the quest is like 2 hours, its 1-10 k reward depending on if its junkies/tribals/caravan and how many enemies/allies are in the instance.
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The cooldown on the quest is like 2 hours, its 1-10 k reward depending on if its junkies/tribals/caravan and how many enemies/allies are in the instance.
ok! good to know!
i will keep "sucking shit", bambi! lol.
and i will keep farming my det stuff. it's faster and less lame anyway.
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Crafting anything other than molovs/flamers is a waste of fing time.
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Crafting anything other than molovs/flamers is a waste of fing time.
crafting m60's is fine also, especially for TB builds.
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crafting m60's is fine also, especially for TB builds.
yeah i gave up on m60 when ammo became annoying to farm
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crafted 40 m60 at start, what is so hard ? ;)
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crafted 40 m60 at start, what is so hard ? ;)
what part of "ammo became annoying to farm" you don't understand?
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what part of "ammo became annoying to farm" you don't understand?
come on, dont u say ? is n it easy to get hq minerals and craft some ammo ? ;) it is easy like never before.
i suggest you to play minecraft, noone gonna kill you there about mobs 10x time per 10min and you can craft not like here :) actually minecraft is ok, but seems it is not for you
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come on, dont u say ? is n it easy to get hq minerals and craft some ammo ? ;) it is easy like never before.
i suggest you to play minecraft, noone gonna kill you there about mobs 10x time per 10min and you can craft not like here :) actually minecraft is ok, but seems it is not for you
i have a few suggestions aswell.
1. stop spamming the suggestions forum with crap suggestions.
2. stop insulting people for no reason at all.
3. start learning some english.
you want to play a game in which everything is boring and tedious, just because you want to? be my guest. play on empty server. 'nuff said.
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i have a few suggestions aswell.
1. stop spamming the suggestions forum with crap suggestions.
2. stop insulting people for no reason at all.
3. start learning some english.
you want to play a game in which everything is boring and tedious, just because you want to? be my guest. play on empty server. 'nuff said.
q. you spamming more and often
w. you insulting/killing newbies at ncr all time you here, for long time
e. are n t you cool ? you not, stop that rambo talking style
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bambi , you are a crafter and never done tc , so stop saying if its good or not
you dont have a thief and you want noone have also...
i once didnt have a thief and tought its not ok others have easy way to get ammo, but instead bitching i created myself a thief...
game should look like that: at start its hard to get anything - survival, once you have few 24lvl chars you should have easy ways of obtaining stuff and be able to start doing tc mostly ,simple as that .in example encounter npcs that require highest tier stuff and level 24 character should yield much ammo and guns to support playing tc and dying for at least 50% of time spent in game, same with crafting but it should be slower. i really deont think its hard to do the game to work like that
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Just have your faction rep go down when caught so you eventually get kicked out.
Also- why not PvP with lesser gear?
Damn Munchkins.