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[Killy]

The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".

[Who Killed Bambi]

The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".

Killy, you sound like comedian from New Vegas, sorry

[Eternauta]

The reason this server turned into a sh*thole is b/c changes are made by people like Solar while should have been done by Niceboat. Im sure that if Nice boat made a new server 100% and many old 2238 players would go play there. Then Solar could have said "Mission Accomplished They all ragequit".

There already is a server for "niceboat minded" players, FOnline: Battleground. Make char, talk to NPC to get max level, talk to another NPC to get uber gear. I have nothing against such a server, but I would like PvP apes to go have their PvP there, now that they have the chance, instead of telling us "mad max wannabes" to gtfo.

Why should RPers leave 2238 instead of PvP apes if PvP apes are who complain about lack of balance, overpowered/nerfed stuff, amount to time needed to get the few items they use, and "omg the game forces you to cheat!!1"?

Devs waste too much effort and time trying to make PvP apes happy, when this is impossible in 2238. According to Nice_Boat, the search for RP caused disasters like the NCR Army in Redding. But what about the "disasters" devs always make everytime they boost this, nerf that, add a cooldown here, add no cooldown to relog, etc? 2238 will never ever be a good PvP server because the great PvP warlords, who we are all supposed to listen to and obey, will always be annoyed with "silly content".

[Killy]

I just realized that You people dont get what he is talking about. Either pure pvp server or pure RPG dont make sense. Its all about entertaining both kind of players, and its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm.

[Eternauta]

I just realized that You people dont get what he is talking about. Either pure pvp server or pure RPG dont make sense. Its all about entertaining both kind of players, and its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm.

wat? You sure believe PvPers (interested in super pew pew with easy-to-get uber gunz and max-level-without-a-pain-in-the-ass-to-level characters) and RPers (interested in immersion, "wasteland feel", rich player-to-player interaction) can really coexist? 2238 is more than enough to realise it's impossible.

Oh and about "its not like digging ore help people reach orgasm", tell that to the powermetagamers who are always complaining because it's boring to level chars and hard to get good items...

[Who Killed Bambi]

he is not interested in pure pvp server because at pure pvp server is not possible too shoot n00bs in ma mk2 with 10 mm pistol , or kill sniper in ma mk2 with sniper rifle. all use apa gauss and bozar at pvp server so playing there is not interesting.

[Nice_Boat]

Why should RPers leave 2238 instead of PvP apes if PvP apes are who complain about lack of balance, overpowered/nerfed stuff, amount to time needed to get the few items they use, and "omg the game forces you to cheat!!1"?

Because 2238 has no anti-alt protection, no in-character behaviour enforcement, no GM-driven quests (as GMs are mostly policing the players because of the server rules which are pretty bad due to the fact that ultimately this server can't really decide what it wants to be) and the system itself encourages the use of multiple characters by a single person which makes them closer in function to units in a strategy game than characters in an RPG game. Oh, and there's that thing called town control and the fact that fighting is about the only thing to do once you've done all the quests and established your base for "survival".

Devs waste too much effort and time trying to make PvP apes happy, when this is impossible in 2238. According to Nice_Boat, the search for RP caused disasters like the NCR Army in Redding. But what about the "disasters" devs always make everytime they boost this, nerf that, add a cooldown here, add no cooldown to relog, etc? 2238 will never ever be a good PvP server because the great PvP warlords, who we are all supposed to listen to and obey, will always be annoyed with "silly content".

You know, the south is a giant ghost town and the north is blooming with life in comparison, so this statement is sort of detached from reality. Yes, the "we want RPG" crowd is very vocal in the forums, but the fact is they still are a minority. 2238 is essentially not a PvP server (that would indeed be Battleground), it's a strategy server where you balance gaining resources with fighting, because that's about the only thing the endgame offers. If the intentions were different than that - too bad, it is what it is and the devs can either accept that and make it work better as a strategy/teamplay game, or alienate the majority of the playerbase ever further by trying to strike a compromise which isn't really possible. The fact that they're persevering with the "compromise" approach is responsible for the dwindling playerbase - RPG players leave because of overwhelming metagame and being killed by PvPers, while PvPers get tired with excessive grind.

And do note that I'm not saying this game should entirely forsake the "survival" part - learning to survive alone and starting/joining a gang is a great tutorial for newcomers and a mildly entertaining alternative for loners, but it just doesn't work well once you learn the ropes and engage in endgame, so to speak.

[T-888]

Delusional stuff again , " pvp'ers are the big whole problem " , " were forcing the server to go down " etc. etc.  I think you should stop posting , each sentence is complete nonsense , eternauta , bambi etc. etc.

I am more than sure nobody of you will able to defend that opinion correctly , it's ultimately incorrect , doesn't make sense , so don't pull yourself in a pile of sh*t you can't crawl out.

I'm with nice boat on this.

[Flesh Wound]

he is not interested in pure pvp server because at pure pvp server is not possible too shoot n00bs in ma mk2 with 10 mm pistol , or kill sniper in ma mk2 with sniper rifle. all use apa gauss and bozar at pvp server so playing there is not interesting.

well if we all had apa mk2 it would suck ass, but i would like to see those armors in game, but only if there were very hardly to craft.
pa - good met parts,hq fibers,hq ele parts,pneumatic system,small nuclear reactor baterry, activation key
hpa -pa, medium nuclear reactor baterry, carbonic plates, activation key, cooling system
apa -good met parts,hq fibers,hq ele parts,pneumatic system,large nuclear reactor baterry, carbonic plates, aiming system
, activation key, cooling system
apa mk2 - apa, hq cooling system, hq carbonic plates, activation key
all new parts should be placed in special encounters like gauss pistols.

[Tomowolf]

I just get 1500 mfc easily... too much easily, you can then trade it for caps/guns/armors, then economy does not have even sense.
Change something please, add caps to shops like two seasons before or make it harder to get (ammo).

[Nice_Boat]

I just get 1500 mfc easily... too much easily, you can then trade it for caps/guns/armors, then economy does not have even sense.
Change something please, add caps to shops like two seasons before or make it harder to get (ammo).

The economy of NPC trading on 2238 has always made about as much sense as the economy of Soviet Union. You can't have players being responsible for 100% of demand and a large part of supply with preset prices and limited stock in NPC shops and hope for the best. NPC traders shouldn't even deal in common ammo, which yes, should be pretty easy to get (or else you end up with the "can't play, grinding ammo now" problem). The hilarious part here is the fact that player to player trade has always been good, but it suffers from the "lack of everything" problem which makes people refuse to trade and hold on to their supply themselves. Yet another example of "survival-RPG compromise" making this game less interesting.

[Eternauta]

Because 2238 has no anti-alt protection, no in-character behaviour enforcement,

So? that is only an excuse for extreme metagaming and trolling. Just because you can do something that breaks immersion and ruins the game for other people, does that mean you are forced to do it?

no GM-driven quests (as GMs are mostly policing the players because of the server rules which are pretty bad due to the fact that ultimately this server can't really decide what it wants to be)

GMs are not always needed for roleplay. And GMs are policing players because many players like to do whatever they "need/are forced to" to play the game they want to play, which has nothing to do with Fallout.

and the system itself encourages the use of multiple characters by a single person which makes them closer in function to units in a strategy game than characters in an RPG game.

Yeah yeah, it "encourages" and even forces you to be a metagaming PvP ape right? It's how players choose to play. I have only one player, and I don't play much so it's low level. Do this harm the PvPers' gamestyle? Not at all.

I can't enter a town to trade or do a quest because there's TC going on with swarms, proxies, etc. Do PVPer's harm my gamestyle? Yes, they do.

Oh, and there's that thing called town control and the fact that fighting is about the only thing to do once you've done all the quests and established your base for "survival".

People are always complaining about TC. And what you said is false. You can always set up a project, a player-driven event, etc. Just because doesn't throw a big obvious "YO MAN YOU CAN DO THIS IN THIS SERVER" doesn't mean you can't do anything else apart from TC.

You know, the south is a giant ghost town and the north is blooming with life in comparison, so this statement is sort of detached from reality. Yes, the "we want RPG" crowd is very vocal in the forums, but the fact is they still are a minority.

WWP project: make a project in Redding, enemies ruin it. Make an exodus to the south, south is full of trolls who exploit NPC AI, bombing cooldown, etc. Retire to a hidden base.

2238 is essentially not a PvP server (that would indeed be Battleground), it's a strategy server where you balance gaining resources with fighting, because that's about the only thing the endgame offers. If the intentions were different than that - too bad, it is what it is and the devs can either accept that and make it work better as a strategy/teamplay game, or alienate the majority of the playerbase ever further by trying to strike a compromise which isn't really possible. The fact that they're persevering with the "compromise" approach is responsible for the dwindling playerbase - RPG players leave because of overwhelming metagame and being killed by PvPers, while PvPers get tired with excessive grind.

2238 doesn't work as a PvP server, and doesn't work as a "strategy" server either. If it "demands" so much metagaming, then it's not what the game is supposed to be, imho.

And do note that I'm not saying this game should entirely forsake the "survival" part - learning to survive alone and starting/joining a gang is a great tutorial for newcomers and a mildly entertaining alternative for loners, but it just doesn't work well once you learn the ropes, so to speak.

Kinda true, however I think the "survival" part is simply something a bit hard to work on, while a perfectly balanced PvP game is really impossible unless you go for something like Battleground (instant max level, instant items).

[Nice_Boat]

So? that is only an excuse for extreme metagaming and trolling. Just because you can do something that breaks immersion and ruins the game for other people, does that mean you are forced to do it?

Following this logic, Quake 3 is a perfectly viable platform for roleplaying.

GMs are not always needed for roleplay. And GMs are policing players because many players like to do whatever they "need/are forced to" to play the game they want to play, which has nothing to do with Fallout.

That's the fault of the design, not the players. The thing is people who "want to play the game their way" are attracted by actual gameplay, while the RPG crowd is attracted by the Fallout brand which results in endless whine, delusions about what this server is and suggestions that are simply bad for general gameplay. If you wanted to make 2238 really cater to the RPG demographic, you'd have to basically redesign the whole thing. That'd mean scrapping 2/3 of the project, I highly doubt the odds of that happening are high.

Yeah yeah, it "encourages" and even forces you to be a metagaming PvP ape right? It's how players choose to play. I have only one player, and I don't play much so it's low level. Do this harm the PvPers' gamestyle? Not at all.

If something can be done, it will be done. If it makes you progress in the game faster, it becomes the dominant style of play. The fact that PvPing is the dominant style of play is reason enough to call 2238 a strategy/teamplay game.

I can't enter a town to trade or do a quest because there's TC going on with swarms, proxies, etc. Do PVPer's harm my gamestyle? Yes, they do.

Because this game is not friendly for people who just want to do quests, trade and roleplay because of the way it was designed. Would you complain about people blowing you up in Q3 if you wanted to roleplay?

People are always complaining about TC. And what you said is false. You can always set up a project, a player-driven event, etc. Just because doesn't throw a big obvious "YO MAN YOU CAN DO THIS IN THIS SERVER" doesn't mean you can't do anything else apart from TC.

People aren't complaining about the idea of TC, they are complaining about balance, specifics etc. Somehow, I don't see that many threads discussing the best way of roleplaying here... I wonder why? Because the notion of discussing what is the best way of roleplaying a raider/VCC/whatever on this server is so ridiculous, outlandish and impossible nobody even bothers to do that.

WWP project: make a project in Redding, enemies ruin it. Make an exodus to the south, south is full of trolls who exploit NPC AI, bombing cooldown, etc. Retire to a hidden base.

Well, WWP project was a military operation which failed, that's it. Yet another argument pointing to the fact that this game is all about strategy and teamplay.

2238 doesn't work as a PvP server, and doesn't work as a "strategy" server either. If it "demands" so much metagaming, then it's not what the game is supposed to be, imho.

But it does work as a strategy server because people are playing it that way. Yes, it is terribly imbalanced because of the underlying "but it's a survival/RPG game too!" schizophrenia, but it generally works. On the other hand, people can't play it as an RPG game in unrestricted environments at all, because the design doesn't allow it because you end up with a bullet to the head.

Kinda true, however I think the "survival" part is simply something a bit hard to work on, while a perfectly balanced PvP game is really impossible unless you go for something like Battleground (instant max level, instant items).

A balanced PvP game is perfectly possible, you just have to keep in mind it's a strategy game and balance the strategic layer in the endgame accordingly. The tactical level is actually very well balanced right now. And the survival part is actually the easiest part to work on, because all you need to do is adding content without worrying too much about balance and inserting gameplay hints into dialogue in a way that doesn't break the fourth wall.

[Who Killed Bambi]

RP is best part of game, remove TC at all.

RP is awesome at 2238, i enjoy it from childhood

Nothing can describe RP at 2238 at all, it is awesome in all points of view, TC pointless at all, join 2238 and enjoy pure pve and rp

2238 is awesome, i spend there all day dooing RP, i m not glad that there is pvp and pk but server is great

[Eternauta]

Following this logic, Quake 3 is a perfectly viable platform for roleplaying.

I have never player Quake 3, so I'd honestly like you to explain this statement.

the RPG crowd is attracted by the Fallout brand which results in endless whine, delusions about what this server is and suggestions that are simply bad for general gameplay. If you wanted to make 2238 really cater to the RPG demographic, you'd have to basically redesign the whole thing. That'd mean scrapping 2/3 of the project, I highly doubt the odds of that happening are high.

However, PvPers/metagamers whine a lot too! Because farming is not as easy as before, because there are no detonator parts, because of a lot of different reasons. And when Solar said "TC, let's flesh this out", the result was a long thread full of trolling and many "current system sucks, let's go back to x sessions ago". It seems making a good PvP/strategy server requires scrapping a great part of the project or at least going back quite a lot of steps...

If something can be done, it will be done. If it makes you progress in the game faster, it becomes the dominant style of play. The fact that PvPing is the dominant style of play is reason enough to call 2238 a strategy/teamplay game.

But that's not the dev's or the game's fault, it's the metagamers', who don't want to have fun but to dominate. If metagamers knew they could instantly win their next TC fight by clicking on a specific rock in Junktown mine 6000000500004 times, they'd do it. And complain about it at the same time.

Because this game is not friendly for people who just want to do quests, trade and roleplay because of the way it was designed. Would you complain about people blowing you up in Q3 if you wanted to roleplay?

Uhm, Quake 3 again, sorry. Anyway, I understand the game should be "dangerous", but a great swarm or proxy army full of powerful items doesn't look like "Fallouty danger".

People aren't complaining about the idea of TC, they are complaining about balance, specifics etc. Somehow, I don't see that many threads discussing the best way of roleplaying here... I wonder why? Because...

No, it's because PvPer's gamestyle makes it almost impossible to RP, so there's no real point in discussin RP when you don't have many possibilities in it.

Well, WWP project was a military operation which failed, that's it.

How? roleplaying a town mayor or a biologist studying the Wanamingos or a town guard with a crappy Assault Rifle is a military operation?

But it does work as a strategy server because people are playing it that way. Yes, it is terribly imbalanced because of the underlying "but it's a survival/RPG game too!" schizophrenia, but it generally works.

How exactly does that "schizophrenia" harm your strategy gamestyle?

On the other hand, people can't play it as an RPG game in unrestricted environments at all, because the design doesn't allow it because you end up with a bullet to the head.

Pretty much sounds just like what I said, metagaming harms roleplaying, and not the other way round. I think it was avv who said that "PKing is metagaming", because you know the game design makes it safer to PK everyone. Metagaming can't be fully controlled, players "should" try to stick to Fallout instead, but it seems the only thing they liked in Fallout was the graphics.

I understand metagaming gives you a lot of advantages, but this is a game, not real life. I fail to understand why players can't just enjoy the wonderful thing FOnline actually is, by sharing a common space with other Fallout fans.

A balanced PvP game is perfectly possible, you just have to keep in mind it's a strategy game and balance the strategic layer in the endgame accordingly. The tactical level is actually very well balanced right now. And the survival part is actually the easiest part to work on, because all you need to do is adding content without worrying too much about balance and inserting gameplay hints into dialogue in a way that doesn't break the fourth wall.

I see most people shit on new quests and "content", see quests just as a way to get their first caps or xp, and even exploit them for a base. They pay a lot more attention to new/reworked perks, traits, builds in general. 2238 players tend to not care about the "survival" part, they just see it as the annoying part you must go through before you can join "real" PvP. (I understand you just said this game must not scrap this part and I'm glad you think that - I am talking about a general tendency, not about you).

They see victory in TC/PvP as a goal they must reach. Everything that lies between them and that goal should be done as quickly and efficiently as possible, even if it means doing boring activities. Unless there's some pretty big cultural difference going on here, I don't think this is how "entertainment" and "fun" works. I connect to FOnline looking for fun and entertainment, but I usually have problems playing the game the way I want because there's people who act like FOnline was their work or at least some kind of chore. These people are usually complaining about game features, balance, nerfed/op'ed stuff, etc. I personally don't feel I *really* need any technical change in the game at all.