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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Survival Guides / Game Help => Topic started by: Stration on January 11, 2012, 02:49:58 pm

Title: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on January 11, 2012, 02:49:58 pm
You might not know this, but your money is not safe in any of the banks. The banking system is designed to collapse, just like it did before the recent wipe, and during the last CBT.

Proof:

What happened the last session:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15278.0 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15278.0)   
(pay attention to the reply one of the developers gave; do a forum search if you are interested in reading more, the keyword is 'withdraw,' there are many more topics full of outraged players)

An even more recent (CBT) banking system collapse:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=19280.0) (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=19280.0))
(Closed Beta Test of the current version of F2238 started: around November 08, 2011; banks started to go down: November 13, 2011, just 5 days later)

To keep your money safe, store it in a container in your tent (do not use slaves/brahmins for that, as they are currently bugged and tend to disappear randomly).

Only use a bank account if you do not have a tent, and as soon as you get one, withdraw all your assets and put them you know where.

UPDATE: one of the veterans of the community was willing to share his insight into the situation. It appears that the banking system never actually worked; click the spoiler button below for a short excerpt.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: GroeneAppel on January 11, 2012, 03:10:21 pm
You do realize, that this behavior is what causes a bank collapse? Banks run on trust. the moment banks lose this trust, and people withdraw money the banks collapse. This thread looks like an attempt to cause chaos really.

Besides that, perhaps banks shouldnt give out any interrest. For the sake of keeping things working.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: JovankaB on January 11, 2012, 03:12:30 pm
The collapse happened when people had hundreds of millions of caps if banks.
Although I don't know what happened on CBT I think money should be safe for some time.

But I don't use bank anyway.


Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on January 11, 2012, 03:32:10 pm
You do realize, that this behavior is what causes a bank collapse? Banks run on trust. the moment banks lose this trust, and people withdraw money the banks collapse. This thread looks like an attempt to cause chaos really.

Besides that, perhaps banks shouldnt give out any interrest. For the sake of keeping things working.
Be my guest then, go ahead and place your trust in the system that has failed twice already and is bound to fail again, you nimrod. 0/10.

Although I don't know what happened on CBT I think money should be safe for some time.

But I don't use bank anyway.
You don't use the banks? Gee whiz! Of course you don't, you lost millions of caps like all of us the last session (didn't you?). If you still used banks, that would mean you're retarded, but apparently you aren't! Congratulations!

Seriously, guys, I specifically addressed this topic to *new* players, didn't I? Please don't confuse them by using statements such as "money should be safe for some time." No! It's not safe unless it's in your tent!
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: vilaz on January 11, 2012, 04:21:35 pm
It's not safe unless it's in your tent!
Which you can rob.

It's forum. It serves free talk. Everybody have right to voice unless he's breaking some of the forum rules. Even if thread is aimed to the new players everybody have right to say something. Beside that you sounds like an arsonist. We really don't need any flame in discussions.

Oh almost forgot 1/10 for making me respond. AmIDoinItRiteGuyz?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: JovankaB on January 11, 2012, 04:28:23 pm
You don't use the banks? Gee whiz! Of course you don't, you lost millions of caps like all of us the last session (didn't you?).

Actually I didn't lose anything, I kept caps in Redding bank and withdrawed as soon as I heard
people have problems in other towns.

And in newbie tent it's not really safe either, because someone can easly follow them from grid ;)
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: wladimiiir on January 11, 2012, 04:31:38 pm
Part of your caps in bank (as it provides interest rate? - not sure) and part of it somewhere else (tent).
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Wipe on January 11, 2012, 05:15:37 pm
words

I find it funny that such thread has been spawned now. Especially, that you wouldn't had a chance to see if "crisis" from previous session will happen again. With your way of thinking, i can yell around every map and board that sneakers are overpowered and should be nerfed soon - anyone remember Sniper Hunting Blues in NCR about year/two ago? Hey, it happened once, so it's going to be like that again! Me has proofz!1one. Even if we wouldn't touch banking system at all, we have about year to make changes; that's +- when it was becoming clear that crisis will happen - and it did, few months later player saw it with their own binoculars.

But such thread so early is just a crappy way to scare newcomers. You have no idea if it will happen again (and it may, i'm not saying that it won't, it was actually pretty interesting to watch). You have no idea if/how it's changed. You have no idea do we have updates prepared to be applied in the right time. I would fully understand such thread in at least month or two, but for now (https://i.imgur.com/c7G4X.jpg)...
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: solid snake on January 11, 2012, 05:31:24 pm
op "put all your caps in your tent all you new players so i can follow you there and rape you!"

/thread
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on January 11, 2012, 05:55:10 pm
It's forum. It serves free talk. Everybody have right to voice unless he's breaking some of the forum rules.
They sure do. But the original poster has rights too, for example the right to tell them that they're posting in a wrong thread. Or maybe he doesn't? I'm getting confused here...
in newbie tent it's not really safe either, because someone can easly follow them from grid
The bottom line is that if you put your money into a container in your tent, it's up to you to make sure nobody takes it away. If you deposit your money in a bank, there's nothing you can do to prevent it from being rendered largely inaccessible to you at any given point in time for no apparent reason.
(...)You have no idea(...)
What you are saying is 100% true in the sense that I am no fortune teller. I do, however, recognize a pattern when I see one. I can see that the interest rates are back. I can remember what they led to the last session. I can remember what they led to in the last CBT. I do not know whether or not the problem will arise again. It might well be that it won't. It might well be that I have just prevented it from arising. It might just as well be that I actually caused it again by starting this very thread, thankfully only on a tiny scale, since there's not too much money around yet.

Whatever the future has in store for us, the keyword is preparedness. This topic's sole aim is to merely inform new players of a possibility of something very, very bad that might happen if they take no precautions against it when they still can. I certainly wish someone had started a similar one before the first bank run occurred.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Atom on January 11, 2012, 06:09:18 pm
The system underwent a change and the players' accounts wealth is regulated by interests tied to actual wealth of the bank in which the accounts are registerd. They will be more and more flat (in fact approaching zero) as the time progresses (real wealth is expected to be lineraly growing). The CBT banks did not collapse, instead the global money pool was too low for the system to actually work. This is something that does not happen in OBT.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Dantiko on January 11, 2012, 06:43:59 pm
I really don't understand, can someone explain to me why don't banks have infinite money, money that isn't kept on an npc, dammit.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Solar on January 11, 2012, 07:13:27 pm
I really don't understand, can someone explain to me why don't banks have infinite money, money that isn't kept on an npc, dammit.

To put it simply. The banks will not crash.

/Thread
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: jodwig on January 11, 2012, 07:14:52 pm
I really don't understand, can someone explain to me why don't banks have infinite money, money that isn't kept on an npc, dammit.

Because, when I put few thousands of caps, after some time I could withdraw 600k, get it now?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on January 11, 2012, 07:30:35 pm
To put it simply. The banks will not crash.

/Thread
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jxUvZ2YRZyw/TnXz3QSrnhI/AAAAAAAAAIk/kGzM-65_y_E/s1600/i-want-to-believe.jpg)
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Marko69 on January 11, 2012, 07:55:34 pm
Ok imma gonna put mah moneyz and you give it back if it fail k? thx bye!
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: thisisnottrue on January 14, 2012, 02:52:57 am
(https://i.imgur.com/wNOa2.png)

IT BEGINS
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Michaelh139 on January 14, 2012, 02:55:36 am
Whoever did not learn from their mistakes last wipe is a fool and does not contain the cognitive abilities to play this game.

So don't cry, you're just retarded if you made the same mistake again. ;)
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Lexx on January 14, 2012, 10:23:13 am
It's most likely a bug. Wait for a fix.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Solar on January 14, 2012, 12:13:07 pm
Turns out it can happen, its just unlikely as the reserves build up and will resolve itself pretty quickly.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: LagMaster on January 14, 2012, 12:32:23 pm
what if i whant to let my money in a bank w/o interest?
can i have that option?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Solar on January 14, 2012, 12:36:19 pm
Yes, a tent :P
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: wedran123 on January 14, 2012, 01:41:46 pm
Whew...I just pulled all my magnificent 50 caps from the NCR bank...I think you still got time to save your money
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Solar on January 14, 2012, 04:53:51 pm
Withdraw away, the system will sort itself and you'll lose your interest :)
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: JovankaB on January 14, 2012, 05:50:40 pm
Withdraw away, the system will sort itself and you'll lose your interest :)

2% from 50 caps, damn. Given enough time he could be a millionaire. :)

All you need to crash is a mass of people withdraw money. If you have interest rate the system won't sort itself out,
because it's a scam - banks claim that they can give you more money than they have. Unless you will cheat in the script
and create money in banks out of thin air. Which probably would be the best idea, because it's simple.

Banks in FOnline don't invest money or earn it in some other way.
I don't really see why we need scam bank feature with interest rate based on nothing but with real bank balance that can go to 0.

I think I prefer safety of my own house over banks with cash problems and thieves waiting for your withdrawal around corner.
It's a matter of preference though.

Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Aves on January 14, 2012, 06:07:04 pm

Sadly i agree,  banks cant fund present withdrawals with futer pay ins. in other words

if 1 day players pay in 10000 caps next day its  10250 caps of debt, so banks owe players 10250 caps,  but paid in money is only a 10.000 so system expects people to pay in even more money

its a ponzi scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

unles ofc there are other sources of inflow of cash to the bank

what could be made is a cheque system,  or at least possibility to pay for some stuff with bank transfer,  like for doctors and bases
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Solar on January 14, 2012, 08:47:33 pm
There are other sources coming into the bank, they aren't a Ponzi scheme.

Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Lizard on January 15, 2012, 09:46:14 pm
Invest your time. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efNzhEKm3w4)
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Mister Dank on January 15, 2012, 10:11:14 pm
Don't worry; banks are too big to fail.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Rosmy Sundr on January 16, 2012, 03:29:37 am
To proponents of the banks having infinite money; that just leads to inflation. FO2238, like other MMOs, already has a source of infinite income for player to exploit: infinite encounter NPC. And just like other MMOs, inflation is the perpetual threat to in-game economies. Everyone wants to be "the hero" player with all the loot/money, and as a result the player-base accrues such vast wealth grinding npcs and quests that the in-game economy becomes a joke. Think about playing F2 just as a single player game. Once you got to around VC you could pretty much make infinite money just by selling random encounter loot to npcs. In 10 minutes you could gather enough H&K CAWS and cash in at VC vendors to buy a GECK (the map to V13 was only 10,000 creds). Now multiply that by a few thousand players and there's little wonder why people start begging for wipes a few months into the game.

wipes are so far the only way proven affective to bring the economy back to something manageable. When money's value per person becomes too diluted, there are very few ways of equitably readjusting its value. There's a reason we aren't still using dollars after the great wipe war, the number of bills and coins (required for a population of hundreds of millions) becomes worthless as a limited commodity when the population drops to mere thousands. Caps on the other hand, were relatively uncommon, since they tend to be discarded, and limited once the ability to manufacture them was nuked away. Perhaps every few months we could change currency (oh I'm sorry, we don't accept "caps" anymore. Haven't you switched to "Hub-bucks" yet? I suppose I could exchange them for you 100:1, but only cuz I'm such a nice guy.)

The fact is, even without banks, and infinite money, people can still gather enough resources to literally carpet their tents with Combat Armor. If anything, we need resource sinks like the banks (or better yet, more resource intensive, xp/perk-payout only quests) to keep credits from losing their value. I would even advocate that banks go without interest AND charge a regular service fee (though in return you ought to be able to access your one account from any FLC, maybe also have the option to rent a safety deposit box...) After all, this is the wasteland; you could be robbed or worse at any moment. Having your money guaranteed safe is something many people today in conflict countries actively pay for.

That said, I'm curious where new account fees go, as well as the assets of banned players. I'm also curious as to whether game-wide caps level has an effect on merchant buy prices. Or if there is any resource transfer between merchants and their town's bankers during restock.


tl;dr: allowing the banks to "print money" to match non-constructive interest debts only dilutes it's worth and accelerates the need for wipes.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Reconite on January 28, 2012, 02:29:21 am
Perhaps every few months we could change currency (oh I'm sorry, we don't accept "caps" anymore. Haven't you switched to "Hub-bucks" yet? I suppose I could exchange them for you 100:1, but only cuz I'm such a nice guy.)
This is actually a very good idea. +1 to the whole post, this needs to be seen.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Lizard on January 28, 2012, 11:41:47 am
If you start charging money for depositing it, the playerbase start hoarding money in their tents. Absolutely safe and free of charge. So it's a dead capital instead of one flowing in system.

However, if your interest surpasses the costs, you will for sure fill up your account with 10K or something. The bank should change interest at fluctuating weekly basis between the FLC branches from negative to positive values and charge branch transaction costs from players - the FLC gets its income to create interest and players will behave more actively concerning their income growth by this kind of "daytrading".

If a player wants to save his money on transaction, he must withdraw money and bring this cash to another branch - for that, he risks to get killed and robbed in the Wastes - in this case, this cash will be introduced back to the global pool.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Michaelh139 on January 28, 2012, 03:51:11 pm
from negative to positive values

No bank in the history of the earth has ever or will ever add a negative value to interest.

Why?

Because you're just giving your money away in the eye of the consumer, and that's absolutely the case.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Lizard on January 28, 2012, 09:56:47 pm
Negative interest would mean someone else would get your money as positive interest. Consider your money invested in FLC stocks - they're
getting uppers and downers, too, depending on how much cash is in the bank.

Is it too little in Hub - the bank gets it from negative interest from the branch in Frisco, where the most money is placed. Players gets the info about high interest and storm the Hub FLC branch to deposit their savings there. It's cash pool gets filled up with player's money and the pork cycle leaves a span of time for players getting some positive interest.

On the other side, there will be panicked withdrawal of money from Frisco - yet, since there won't be a possibility for every player to watch their account for 24/7, there will be always loss for some players and, winning for another, more awake ones.

So it's a financial PvP against an anonymous person and you better do something about your profits.

Hey, ask yourself what will happen if someone start to hoard the caps in-game?

And i think the devs should distance a bit from realistic bank schemes, but not condemn them.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: TKs-KaBoom on January 28, 2012, 10:52:34 pm
What a ridiculously stupid idea, no offense......  are your getting enough oxygen to your brain?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: natsuto on January 31, 2012, 02:31:50 am
CBT's banks did not collapse, global currency pool system and not the actual work too low. They will be more and more flat, over time the real wealth is lineraly expected to increase.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Rosmy Sundr on January 31, 2012, 01:26:13 pm
No bank in the history of the earth has ever or will ever add a negative value to interest.

No offense, but you are speaking from ignorance. Even if we ignore the common practice of banks exceeding interest payouts with non-service related bank fees, it is often the case in conflict countries for banks to charge either a substantial flat fee or negative interest for protecting your money. For example, this practice is still rampant in post-earthquake Haiti, as the only other options are to carry your money and risk mugging/skimming, or keeping your valuables in an easily ransacked tent. Insecurity leads to protection charges.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: anarchclaw on January 31, 2012, 07:18:05 pm

On the other side, there will be panicked withdrawal of money from Frisco - yet, since there won't be a possibility for every player to watch their account for 24/7, there will be always loss for some players and, winning for another, more awake ones.


What you're suggesting is an easily exploitable system, and the only way to counter abuse would be arbitrary limitations on each player's "participation" and THAT would mean defeating the whole purpose of this little gambling stock-market minigame. Who wants to sit on their computer waiting for bank-updates while Ivan is idling with an army of traders waiting to min/max every transaction.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on February 29, 2012, 05:33:24 pm
I witnessed a dialogue between two newbies today, one advising the other to keep his money in a bank.

This topic needs to go back to the first page.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Michaelh139 on February 29, 2012, 08:28:50 pm
No offense, but you are speaking from ignorance. Even if we ignore the common practice of banks exceeding interest payouts with non-service related bank fees, it is often the case in conflict countries for banks to charge either a substantial flat fee or negative interest for protecting your money. For example, this practice is still rampant in post-earthquake Haiti, as the only other options are to carry your money and risk mugging/skimming, or keeping your valuables in an easily ransacked tent. Insecurity leads to protection charges.
just noticed this.


Banks do not cost anything to store money in and you actually make some money storing it in an account.  There is that first "flat-fee" to make the account but it is hardly of consequence.  And they do not charge negative interest as you say.  They only charge you for withdrawals.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Rosmy Sundr on March 01, 2012, 12:57:58 am
just noticed this.


Banks do not cost anything to store money in
activity fees, transfer fees, minimum balance penalties, atm fees, "maintenance" fees, interstate/international "processing" fees, currency exchange fees... and that's just for normal countries, not including bribes or protection money... have you ever used a bank before?
Quote
and you actually make some money storing it in an account.
you're lucky to find a bank that gives 0.25% interest. most banks, if you hold less than a few thousand dollars in your account, will charge you more in monthly service and maintenance fees then you will ever make in quarterly interest.
Quote
There is that first "flat-fee" to make the account but it is hardly of consequence.
Most real banks don't do this anymore. Why make a barrier to new members, when the real money lies in fees and investing their deposits. In 2238, the bank fee seems to be simply a money sink to control the economy, and a minor barrier to slow down alts
Quote
And they do not charge negative interest as you say.
all you need to do is google "negative interest rate"... there's even examples of non-conflict/non-third-world private and public banks going negative.
Quote
They only charge you for withdrawals.
You have obviously never used a bank before... underaged?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Ymeogamaouas on March 01, 2012, 10:37:37 am
Yea in a primitive country like the US maybe (assuming you are US cause you mentioned dollars).

In a civilised country with a working banking system I do not have

a) Opening account fee? NOP
b) Minimum amount of money or you are charged? NOP (actually Barclays does this but not Natwest and HSBC)
c) Deposit/Withdrawl charge? ARE YOU NORMAL? What kind of sneaky scam-artist bank does this?
d) Withdraw with card from ATM? Hell No!
e) Withdraw with card from ATM of another Bank? NO AGAIN!
f) Pay with -debit- card fee? NOP!

The only things I get charged for is for money transfer to another bank (which does make some sense) and for getting cash (not purchases) with the visa in which case its a visa transaction cost and not from my own bank.

We even have cash back and there is no extra charge (ie you go to the super market and you buy some stuff and tell the cashier 'also give me 100 pounds' and bill it all on my debit card').

So yea... I am sorry for you poor Americans...
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Kelin on March 01, 2012, 12:07:50 pm
I don't know which country you are from Ymeogamaouas, but seems you're very lucky. Here, in The Czech Republic the majority of banks charge you for almost everything. Withdrawal, deposit, ATM withdraw, paying with card... it costs you a lot of money. Not to mention perversities like e-banking or immense deposit fees.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: wladimiiir on March 01, 2012, 03:25:08 pm
b) Minimum amount of money or you are charged? NOP (actually Barclays does this but not Natwest and HSBC)

According to this it sounds to me like Britain.
I remember when I used to live there, no fees at all, no interest rate on credit cards...
When I came back to my country, I could not believe that I had to pay for everything (when I started to use non-student account). Our banking system is way more behind (like everything in here) than it was in Britain.
[sighs] One of these days, I will be back, Britain...do you hear me?...I will be back. ;D
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Ymeogamaouas on March 01, 2012, 03:51:19 pm
I was in the UK for 5 years... the above examples are from there...

I am originally from Greece and we have exactly the same things I mentioned for UK with the exception of getting money from an ATM of another bank... they charge you 1 euro for that. And we also dont have cash back...

I am now living in Poland and its ALSO the same here... they only charge me for taking money with my card from a diffrent bank ATM but on the other hand I can make money transfers even between banks without transaction cost...

I know that the banking system in the US is pretty darn primitive (as is their public medical care and education) but didnt expect it from Czech and ... where you are from again Mike?
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Slaver Snipe on March 01, 2012, 04:52:14 pm
Ymeogamoaus I don't see how you can claim certain things in the US are "primitive" when they are merely different.  We in the US mostly have enough money to basically ignore fees for atms etc and the banks are smart enough to take advantage of that with charging us said fees so they can get more money.  There is nothing "primitive" about it merely our companies getting away with what they can whereas your companies do not use the same system.  You shouldn't make judgements like that.  If we were doing ritual sacrifice to appease the banking gods then yes you could call it primitive but not with how it is currently done.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Rosmy Sundr on March 03, 2012, 08:59:57 pm
Well, ever since they started charging a per goat blood-stain-removal fee at least...
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Stration on July 15, 2012, 09:13:56 pm
I've seen a large number of players <100 hps recently, let's bring this thread back to page one for a while.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Mike Crosser on July 15, 2012, 09:22:45 pm
I used to deposit some cash in the bank,never lost a cap.
Title: Re: [BANKS] WARNING to all new players!
Post by: Trent Steel on July 17, 2012, 12:17:12 am
So the game has fractional reserve banks modeled into it? That's an interesting design decision. I call shenanigans.