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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: avv on September 12, 2011, 03:45:27 pm
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Playing with low carryweight is pain in the ass and the game really allows you to gimp yourself on part of cw.
Especially pvp alts tend to have as minmaxed cw as possible because it's support ability. Str is replaced with weapon handling and psychobuffout. Stonewall comes with small frame trait without exceptions.
Low cw char can't loot, farm or gather properly or wear metal armor. Important abilities for everyday gaming, except if you do only pvp with that char and have proxy looters.
This creates an issue where cw-minmaxed pvp alts are ofcourse stronger than chars that are made for general living in wasteland. So people are encouraged to make fighter alts, farmer alts, hauler alts and whatever in between.
If every char had for example 100 cw as unmodified default and small frame did something else than reduced cw, how would it hurt the gameplay? Personally I see only good sides. All chars could farm, loot and gather. Wearing metal armor is not huge benefit because top pvp players will wear ba anyway.
If you look at diablo and many other games, all classes have equal inventory space. In fallout singleplayer there was still enough cw even if you took str1 and small frame. Carrying items around so that it's not pain in the ass should be default "right" of every character.
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I disagree. I think it's important that all SPECIALs are relevant and it would make ST even less relevant.
Every choice of very low atribute should be painful in some way.
I like that drugged apes can't loot everything easily.
High ST should give more benefits though. Right now max ST is the ST you would use for weapon and even this case isn't that common because of perks/drugs. Even for melee builds its not that important, because damage bonus is tiny.
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I agree on the points that it would enable different builds to be more suitable for the daily living in wasteland (mining, carrying resources, loot, collect stuff or move it from place to place).
But yes, I'm teared appart at the question what is better: powerbuilds that can carry a shitload of loot or proxy-ST10-looter-alts. Best would be no proxy-loot-alts, but that issue is a little bit more difficult.
My opinion is: As proxy-looting is already goin on, lets let those powerbuilds carry their dozens of MAs so they don't need proxy-alts anymore, but at the same time, enable less stress and more fun for normal builds in their daily business with more cw (the above mentioned "oh fuck I can't carry more than 4 iron ores because im a crafter-hybrid")
I once brought a friend to fonline and he did a SG/Crafter hybrid. First thing he mentioned was "I have to go from mine to town 4 times to have enough material for a gun and 50 rounds?"
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Tools and materials should be lighter (though some already are lighter than in the past), it's a different thing.
The most ridiculous example is probably speed loader, which weights over 5 kg (what the...?!).
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I disagree. I think it's important that all SPECIALs are relevant and it would make ST even less relevant.
Every choice of very low atribute should be painful in some way.
Like luck and cha? Absolutely no downsides if you make the build right. 1Luck just leaves out some nice perks that the build doesn't need, 1 cha means you can't have lots of mercs, lead lots of people or talk to npcs without drugs. Totally something that player can live without. str1 means you can't frigging move items around.
I like that drugged apes can't loot everything easily.
Apes got absolutely no problem with looting, they use looter proxy that's waiting on worldmap. For hauling they use alts.
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Yes, exactly like Luck and Cha. Of course they have downsides, I have seen apes crying many times to buy them something.
Though I don't like that merchant thing.
Apes got absolutely no problem with looting, they use looter proxy that's waiting on worldmap.
It's a problem with cheaters, not low ST. Cheaters will cheat.
I prefer them using proxy for looting with naked builds than for having another PvP char waiting on worldmap.
And it's not like you have looter proxies with every ape fight. It's just not the case.
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Yes, exactly like Luck and Cha. Of course they have downsides, I have seen apes crying many times to buy them something.
Apes use their hauler alt for bartering. The ones who are crying are some nuubs who thought cha had no use, besides cha1 can be bypassed with mentats or beer and you need to take it only when bartering. Players move and use items all the time so st1 builds would have to eat psychobuffout 24/7 and even then the cw is pretty weak.
It's a problem with cheaters, not low ST. Cheaters will cheat.
I prefer them using proxy for looting with naked builds than for having another PvP char waiting on worldmap.
No it's the game encouraging them to cheat. Features that make cheating less encouraging are good. Besides, it's usually just one looter for the whole ape team while the rest got fighters.
And it's not like you have looter proxies with every ape fight. It's just not the case.
Well ever seen apes having problems with looting? Can't see many excess bas laying around after fights. Besides, even if not all apes use proxy it creates unsportsmanship athmosphere when cheaters benefit and those who refuse to cheat have to suffer.
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And I tell you that 100 addictional CW wont stop cheaters from cheating. They will use proxy for next purpose, probably PvP backup.
Well ever seen apes having problems with looting?
Yes, I have been asked many times to help carry loot by pvp powerbuilds.
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In the end it has nothing to do with allowing players to participate in everyday wasteland bussiness with their favourite characters and reducing the feel to need more alts. I'd like to mine with my sneak and sniper but that's a bit hard with 20cw. So I relog to a char that can mine.
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So you create the most munchkinning powerbuild with ridicolous STR and then complain it sucks that it cant carry much? ::) Whats next? Why not just make each SPECIAL point to 10 by default, the poor munchkins would otherwise have some disasvantages during their daily aping? :(
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Choices and Consequences.
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I'd rather see more special balance, to the extent that something like "6-6-6-5-6-6-5" wouldn't be the stupidest and most pointless build ever - it'd be average at all things (like the numbers appear to suggest), and could be tweaked either way to specialise.
Ideally, ST1 or CH1 or LK1 should be as painful as AG1. Obviously, this would be a complete overhaul of the entire system, be almost impossible to do, and would likely never happen :)
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Am I complaining? I get along just fine with alts, same all the other players who prefer to do things effectively. I'm just pointing out the problems related to minmaxed cw builds and how it would improve the gameplay if cw was higher by default.
All this talk about consequences and fail builds is talk of people who have no clue what actually happens ingame.
Reasons are beacause:
- Alts take away consequences and choices. With alts you can have everything only relog away. With proxy/fastrelog even closer.
- Munchkins have no problem at all. Ever heard about ape complaining about low cw of his pvp char? Me neither, that's because ape don't use the char on carrying but fighting. When he wants to carry, he relogs to his hauler.
Realistic example:
My sneak is used on tc mostly. No I will not take more cw because it simply isn't needed in tc. My pals loot and sneak only has to sneak and shoot. When tc is over, sneak has no use anymore so I relog away and go mining with my specilized miner character. How would it hurt the gameplay If I could go mining with my sneak?
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So you create the most munchkinning powerbuild with ridicolous STR and then complain it sucks that it cant carry much? ::) Whats next? Why not just make each SPECIAL point to 10 by default, the poor munchkins would otherwise have some disasvantages during their daily aping? :(
That does not change the fact Charisma is lame. But this is about STR, and if I remember it was already discussed before.
It's good thing that STR is going to do even more (perks, melee damage...).
I'd rather see more special balance, to the extent that something like "6-6-6-5-6-6-5" wouldn't be the stupidest and most pointless build ever - it'd be average at all things (like the numbers appear to suggest), and could be tweaked either way to specialise.
Well, it might sound like balanced and realistic build, but thing is that it lacks any imagination and creativity. In other words if you couldn't drop STR for characters that use lighter armors and weapons and do not melee and would be unable to lower CH either, you wouldn't be able to do any variation at all.
The charisma variable is like dead stat, it has several uses and most of them are useless in multiplayer games, other's just create nussiance of not having it, and the last - leading NPCs is just lame (though unfortunately not all disagree).
Ideally talking to NPC would probably matter, but what could REALLY be done to create something that is more than just another need for alt/person (like Modoc major), and does not involve NPCs fighting/working for you? (that's for another topic, but I think strategy games affected by AI are kinda weak).
Rewards? Not really, if that includes just quests you do to level up, you just throw away stats to make it easier to level up.
Repeatable rewards? Would usually result in people doing alts for it.
Well also from another point of view, charisma is the exactly same stat as intelligence. It does not give anything to you, and the best option is to get just as much as you need for perks and skills, no more. Though if skills scaled better and rewarded smaller investments intelligence would be interesting.
Really if anything it would be better if AG1 would work some way instead of everything mattering, leaving little to no choice.
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IMO, it's not the way to solve the problem. Ability to overweight yourself, though, would allow powerbuildzz to carry the loot, but they would have to slowly walk to the exit, making them easy targets, it would make the life easier for loners also, and would stop the stupid situations where you can't pick up a PA when you actually could have it without trouble while wearing it. And from a realistic PoV, it makes sense too.
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IMO, it's not the way to solve the problem. Ability to overweight yourself, though, would allow powerbuildzz to carry the loot, but they would have to slowly walk to the exit, making them easy targets, it would make the life easier for loners also, and would stop the stupid situations where you can't pick up a PA when you actually could have it without trouble while wearing it. And from a realistic PoV, it makes sense too.
isn`t buffout+psy enough to pick up it?
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isn`t buffout+psy enough to pick up it?
Doesn't work when you're already on drug, and 1ST SF can't pick up PA even with buffout+psycho only. I truly think that ability to overweight yourself would solve a big part of proxy looters problems, while still penalizing low ST.
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Ability to overweight yourself
great idea imho
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Overweight would be decent because then you could put stuff for example in a merc with one haul instead of spamming the barter screen 20 times. But even still, I beleave many many players would resort to hauler chars. It's about speed and running is obviously faster than walking around overweight or dragging an unpredictable and vulnerable npc with you everywhere.
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But even still, I beleave many many players would resort to hauler chars. It's about speed and running is obviously faster than walking around overweight or dragging an unpredictable and vulnerable npc with you everywhere.
I don't think so. Many players do this, because their ennemies do it and they have to do it too if they want any chance to get out alive without leaving 3/4 of stuff on the ground (loosing battle in term of loot). If you can, after winning a battle (on killing part), evacuate, a bit slowly, with more risk, but with almost all the stuff, I think most players will be satisfied and will forget about proxies.
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Alts take away consequences and choices. With alts you can have everything only relog away. With proxy/fastrelog even closer.
That's not false, but it's not entirely true either.
First of all, as we all know proxying is against the rules and even if players can do it and get away with it, it's still not allowed and it shouldn't be done because, let's be honest, when you see an enemy cheating you will most probably get mad. Cheating ruins the game for everyone.
About alts, no one can say alting is against the rules, and we agree that "they take away choices and consequences". However (I know I won't change shit with this post, but it's always good to say what one thinks) we should ask ourselves if it's really the possibility to alt that takes away C&C, or if it's ourselves and our hunger for build perfection, productivity, etc.
I am not very active these days but when I have some time I play with a "hybrid" character I have. But that's me... I actually have nothing against powerbuilds, and even if I think "one char per player" would be great, I don't rage at anyone who would use two or three chars, but as the general tendency is to have one alt for every single activity one can think of, interaction between players is usually reduced to combat, which means, imho, that the whole idea of FOnline makes no sense, since we already have a multiplayer version of Fallout Tactics, where you can arrange everything so you won't rage about swarms, cheats, etc.
Also, levelling characters can be boring as hell. A FOnline experience which consists of spending an X amount of time in thrilling PvP combat in TC, which is the fun part (I won't say PvP is boring), but which comes after a 2X amount of time of getting ready for the battle, and a 5X or more amount of time levelling characters searching for centaurs or molerats, is imho quite lame and becomes boring soon.
I see quite a lot of "pvp apes" who play searching for total and if possible constant success ("I'd better make a new char for this or that activity"), whining about the game being dead, leaving the game because it's boring, or taking "holidays from FOnline" (holidays from a game for fuck sake!) because they feel it's more like a job, etc. But the new players I personally meet, who tend to have a "mad max wannabe" tendency, are always having fun and they enjoy doing "stupid" activities which other players consider only a chore that needs to be done in order to achieve epic ownage in the next battle.
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if you want to survive, and lets face it try to play with one char at the time you need a low cw char (powerbuild). I agree the lowest amounts of cw are ridicoulous. Like 5 st and small frame gives 45....I mean ok, realistic, maybe =/= fun
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PA should negate its own weight when worn (in addition to STR bonus), and you should be able to overweight yourself.
Does Overweight still penalize TB movement?
If so then good.
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So you create the most munchkinning powerbuild with ridicolous STR and then complain it sucks that it cant carry much? ::) Whats next? Why not just make each SPECIAL point to 10 by default, the poor munchkins would otherwise have some disasvantages during their daily aping? :(
pretty much this...
you could also get 1 point in CH and carry a brahmin to loot
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Does Overweight still penalize TB movement?
No it doesn't. It changed like 1.5 year ago...