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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Reiniat on June 23, 2011, 07:33:56 pm
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Fallout 2 combat skills were based in the power of the weapons, it was obvious that EW were better than SG or Throwing, the game was intended to use first SG and then use EW or BG.
But this is Fonline and to properly make all combat skills balanced (wich mean that all the combat skills are equal useful in a random battle) i suggest this:
1.-Merge SG and BG into the Van Buren's skill "Fire Guns", a distinction between SG and BG crafters will still due to the lot of weapons, it sounds like a nice deal to me because there is no moving velocity penalty to BGs.
2.-Eliminate the Traps skill; there is no trap in the whole game, and this skill is only to explosives issues
3.-Eliminate Throwing skill, it includes explosive weapons and the throwing knifes, wich are both related to other skills.
4.-Create the new Explosives skill wich will include the next weapons:
-All grenades (including plasma)
-All stuff related to the Traps skill, like the dynamite and the dynacord stick
-The Rocket Launcher
all this guns will be included in the Demolition expert proffession wich could be rename Explosives expert, all the guns will still with the same tier
5.-EW will include the FlameThrower, its a minor change but is logic since the FlameThrower throws flames not bullets, this gun will be one tier craftable for EW profession, the Repair skill needed to craft it will be removed. This skill really needs more guns, nerfed of course, tough it stills a good skill due to the big damage dealed by the Plasma weapons.
6.-Throwing Knifes will be moved to Melee weapons, wich can be a nice improve to ranged attacks in this type of builds. Also some damage increased bonus to throw Spears sounds good, like 25-30, still 8hex range.
Of course a change like this is really big, and we dont know how many new builds or exploits can be achieved this way. But since its easy to implement it could be a nice thing to test in the pre wipe or the pre pre wipe madness, after all this is a beta.
PD: One of the mosty unfair builds in the game is the Rocket Burster, wich uses Avenger minigun and Rocket launcher, giving the player good weapons for all distance combat, with my suggestion Rocket Launchers will be in other skill (and will be "Boomers" and not the ugly designation of "rocketers")
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F1r$t
well, how about we do it like in New Vegas:
we delete traps, trow and BigGuns
Small guns will become Guns and it will include miniguns and Light Machine Guns(LSW,M60)
Energy weapons will include plasma nades, catle broods and flamers
The new Explosives will contain the frag nade, mines, RL, dynamite
trowing knives will go to melle(optional: transform melle to primitive weapons)
power fists and rippers will remain where there are cuz they do normal dmg
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Except that i would change the purpose of those skills.
Throwing >> The guy is good to throw things.
Unarmed >> The guy is a good fighter
Melee weapon > Same, but with a little tool
Big Gun >> The guy is good to carry heavy weapons
Energy Weapon >> The guy is good, mastering energy weapons (that are not heavy but hot and unstable)
Small gun >> The guy isn't good to carry heavy weapons, but is better with classic weapon
Traps >> The guy doesn't actually fight, but trap others.
These type of weapon don't need the same type of guy.
I don't see why a guy that is good with hammer should be good with throwing stuff.
Or a guy that carry heavy weapon should be efficient with sniper...
It's not because some weapons deliver the same type of damage that they need the same kind of guy.
The only problem, i think, with the actual system, is the energy guy...
And we need perk to distinguish hammer user than combat knives users...
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I'm up to moving Rocket Launcher from Big Guns to Explosives/EW/new category.
"Guns" skill isn't a good idea, that's why - you could use sniper rifle and minigun effectively at the time. Overpowered. Btw, small gunners gets nothing, big gunners can use pistols when crippled (and they don't have to "waste" skill points for SG).
Flamethrower stays where it is (we could attach it to both Explosives and Big Guns), cuz there are really not many weapons big gunners can exp with on low levels, moving flamer away would force them to take SG skill points (if they don't want it, they do not have to take it - I'm not saying it's a bad idea, though).
All in all, changes are huge. FO doesn't need huge changes.
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I really like, making throwing knifes, melee thing. It creates new possibilities to almost useless melee chars.
But what exatcly means small guns? And big guns? guns are guns, no matter what you call them. If you have enough strength and can use sniper rifle, what problems causes minigun? Its totally unrealistic.
But making only one skill: guns, its bad idea too.
But on the other hand, there should be small bonus to small guns, and energy weapons, when you put points in big guns. Maybe, if you put 5 points to bg, your sg and ew increase by 2 points. When you are expierenced big gunner, its silly that you hav only 40% sg. And vice versa.
Other idea...
The thing that really matters are guns is one-handed or two-handed. Good idea would be making skills: pistols, rifles, and throwing (as it is now).
And still strength is requirement for using such guns. So if you are investing in Rifles and have only 5st, you use Assault, or Plasma Rifle. If you have 8-9 (which is another idea: INCREASE ST REQS FOR BG WEAPONS!!!) you can use minigun, or LSW, or rocket launcher.
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If you have 8-9 (which is another idea: INCREASE ST REQS FOR BG WEAPONS!!!) you can use minigun, or LSW, or rocket launcher.
That sounds rationally.
In my opinion there should be no drug-free 2 bursts BG builds (idea to make a BG burst cost one or two APs more, choice would be between one kick-ass-BG-burst and 2 less threatening SG bursts). But higher ST requirements should do.
I think that BG builds are the most powerful. Sniper can be as good as a BG, but he needs more stat points and perks to be playable (10 PE, 10 LK, one shot snipers are not a threat anymore - so 10 AG). BG needs 6 ST (or 7, but he doesn't need high skill to shoot well even with a penalty), high EN (which is actually important to almost every build, no matter what weapon you're using).
So the problem is that you can make a BG more easily, and it has the best kick - compare LSW and AR damage/requirements: you need 10 AG, BROF and 2xAB to burst two times with LSW and 10 AG, BROF + f.e. 2xBRD to use assault rifle twice in a turn (LSW still wins for me, btw, you can add the fact that 2 APs more are really useful in many situations).
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and the crafters will have more chance to survive... i bet
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As BadBoy says its a bad idea to merge BG and SG, the problem here is: miniguns and another burst heavy weapons need apenalty in some stats due to his insane damage, you can still killing BG with AK-112, P90 or FAL but those are all low power guns against miniguns or LSW.
have a little gun should give you an advantage, not in damage of course.
The best idea is eliminate the 3ST bonus in Weapon Handling, maybe reduce it to 2, or working in a different way.
to Lagmaster..you didnt even read the whole post before troll....
About Naossano the actual melee weapons skill uses throwing weapons, like the spear, and there shouldnt be a big difference between Throwing knifes and combat knifes, in fact you can throw both of them.
I edit first post
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Because just because I'm a pretty decent shot with a rifle doesn't mean I can wield a rocket launcher.
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miniguns and another burst heavy weapons need apenalty in some stats due to his insane damage, you can still killing BG with AK-112, P90 or FAL but those are all low power guns against miniguns or LSW.
have a little gun should give you an advantage, not in damage of course.
idea to make a BG burst cost one or two APs more, choice would be between one kick-ass-BG-burst and 2 less threatening SG bursts
These two.
The problem is that LSW > any bursting SG. The only "penalty" you get when choosing LSW is that you need not 10 APs, but 12 (with BROF) to burst twice. But you can get over it, because 12 APs looks nicer than 10 and, in fact, you like it more after a while.
In fact, big kick ass weapons in modern armies are the most powerful, as long as you compare weapons not their scope. In FO you do not run faster with small rifles and you can not hide in a bush. And you can have enough ST to weild a heavy gun and burst with it while standing (it would be more realistic if you had to use 2 APs to "set" your gun before shooting, but all BGs will whine in a second, cuz "their characters are as cool as Rambo"). It's a game and actually, higher requirements is the only thing that can blur supremacy that BGs have over SG. Or making burst from BG even more powerful, but impossible to performance twice in turn.
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One Gun skill might not be as bad as you think. We have heard that the AC and critical hit system is getting changed in the future, so that would influence things. Just because you have the skill to technically use both kind of guns, that wouldn't mean you had the perks and stats to make it decisive against opponents that might potentially, be built in a way that made it hard for you to crit, or even hit them.
It would free up skill points for other things, certainly.
One must also consider that we have heard that higher tier guns might not be so readily available. It would change the way pvp and pve went if your readily available guns were tier 1, and more rarely, tier 2, with very few and special tier 3's. Because I can't see a character specialized in BG bursting actually getting any undue utility out of a hunting rifle, or a bad/cheap pistol beyond what the minigun did (in the first case, if they had average or low pe, they would be gimping themselves, because the Hunting Rifle is just plain bad at dps) . Likewise, a character that was a gun slinger or sniper wouldn't necessarily be significantly more effective with a mingun, and might have trouble dealing with the str requirement.
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Just because you have the skill to technically use both kind of guns, that wouldn't mean you had the perks and stats to make it decisive against opponents that might potentially, be built in a way that made it hard for you to crit, or even hit them.
Imagine BG character based on luck, (25% crit chance, 220% BG skill). I haven't played with such, but if i could get free 220% in SG to shoot you in the eyes with Sniper Rifle to knock you out and then finish bursting with minigun I would definetly make a sniper/bg.
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Imagine BG character based on luck, (25% crit chance, 220% BG skill). I haven't played with such, but if i could get free 220% in SG to shoot you in the eyes with Sniper Rifle to knock you out and then finish bursting with minigun I would definetly make a sniper/bg.
Everyone would. That's why this suggestion sucks.
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Everyone would. That's why this suggestion sucks.
i already knew that error, you can see it in the first post, you must read the whole stuff before post.
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BAD ideas, its Fallout based game not new one.
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Imagine BG character based on luck, (25% crit chance, 220% BG skill). I haven't played with such, but if i could get free 220% in SG to shoot you in the eyes with Sniper Rifle to knock you out and then finish bursting with minigun I would definetly make a sniper/bg.
You can still use P90 or something, but looking at firearms they are quite variable so it is not bad to have 3 skills there.
I'm however not particulary happy with melee/unarmed/throwing/traps, think melee should be combined with unarmed, let one not care if it is punch, thurst or swing weapon, and have just one melee skill covering them all.
If you look further gambling is pointless, science could meet repair, barter speech, and doctor first aid.
BAD ideas, its Fallout based game not new one.
This affects power of single character and need for alts, not gameplay as it is. More skill you have, the less can you character do and thus it encourages you to make more of them, because multiplayer chapter of this game does not cover it well. (but to be honest you'll see people doing this even in bigger MMOs).
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Because just because I'm a pretty decent shot with a rifle doesn't mean I can wield a rocket launcher.
but if you are good with an RPG you can wheld Snipers
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but if you are good with an RPG you can wheld Snipers
Hell no, two completly different trainings.
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Hell no, two completly different trainings.
Thats right, but since we agreed, there should be different skills for every gun (minigun is different than rocket, flamer, laser etc).
Thats not gonna happen, so grouping guns sounds fair. What is now is grouping guns by mystery characteristics of big, not big and so on... i suggested logical skills, like one handed guns, two handed guns. Definately fits better to reality...
But, seriously, why its not gonna happen? How about, the more you fire gun, the more skill you have... oh right, powerbuilds with every gun on 300%.
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If there is some kind of skill change for combat then it should something like this
Ranged skills:
handguns (every pistol, laser too)
rifles (every rifle, laser rifle too)
heavy weapons (like minigun, laser gatling, plasma rifle)
Something like this though I don't like this idea.
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Small Gunner can burst with p90 as well as perform simple shots with it. I don't see any reason why he should be able to use smg or p90 in single mode and not a 10mm or 14mm pistol.
Btw, this would be a good idea if it didn't make some (good) weapons useless. Laser pistol is way better than 14mm (even though it's not so "critical") and I believe it would be used way more often, making 14mm less popular (only crippler would use it, not even pistolero).
I think we should change anything in main combat skills (sg, bg, ew). We can talk only about changing some weapons types or discuss melee/unarmed/throwing skills in this pole.
P.S. Jotisz, you would make BGs use what they're using (lsw, minigun, launcher) and SGs only rifles OR pistols. Not fair.
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Imagine BG character based on luck, (25% crit chance, 220% BG skill). I haven't played with such, but if i could get free 220% in SG to shoot you in the eyes with Sniper Rifle to knock you out and then finish bursting with minigun I would definetly make a sniper/bg.
I don't think you really considered everything I said. If we assume that hypothetically, in the future, it becomes harder to hit people in general based on AC, and harder to crit them, and even more so against characters who specialize in dodging or avoiding crits, generalizing won't be a bad strategy. I never said it wouldn't be good. But if you generalized, you might end up having trouble dealing with either extreme.
And the availability of guns. If it suddenly isn't viable to always have the best possible guns ,that also changes things. As it is, the way you arranged stats and perks would make a character either very mediocre at using both, or gimpy/wasting his time using the other. And it's not like a Sniper character can't keep an AR or SMG on hand to HURR burst anything that gets in his face anyway. Some of them are competitive with a Minigun, which only does 8-11 damage, even if it does have 30 rounds. A greasegun of all things does 10-20, and has a 20 round burst, besides taking 1 ap less to shoot. your assault rifles do more damage. The minigun takes 7ap, and requires 7 strength. There is not a standard Sniper gun like the Sniper Rifle that requires more than 5 str, and you need to dedicate pe to see far enough to make them useful. Clearly, you wouldn't have a very good character if you aimed to use both with the same skill, especially if you had flaky, random perks to try and do both. You would be very average. And that's not good the way we strong arm, twink build characters.
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BAD ideas, its Fallout based game not new one.
Fonline aint Fallout. if Fonline would be completely like Fallout (story, maps, items, features[gambling?]) then thats kinda other thing(imagine 200-400 players start at arroyo and them all chosen ones ;D).
did Fallout have Nightstalkers? what about odd white maggots which live in cave... or Radtoads? no it didnt, but did someone whine about them, no. whats wrong about changing FOnline universe if it isnt real Fallout?
P.S. if we want balance, we have to test new things...
But, seriously, why its not gonna happen? How about, the more you fire gun, the more skill you have... oh right, powerbuilds with every gun on 300%.
wait what? that kinda sounds interesting IF each weapon would have own skill progression... sadly that isnt possible.. (pistol, smg, rifles, machineguns, explosives, etc)
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did Fallout have Nightstalkers?
No, FOnline has none either. Besides, you do realize that all the new critters stem from the cancelled Van Buren, official Fallout content developed which just didn't make it in a full game? It's as Fallout as it can get.
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No, FOnline has none either. Besides, you do realize that all the new critters stem from the cancelled Van Buren, official Fallout content developed which just didn't make it in a full game? It's as Fallout as it can get.
Uh...... FOnline DOES have nightstalkers....
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Uh...... FOnline DOES have nightstalkers....
Never seen one.
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Never seen one.
I used to find them northwest of New Reno. usually in the sandy areas.
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Uh...... FOnline DOES have nightstalkers....
You do realize that they are called Desert Stalkers?
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You do realize that they are called Desert Stalkers?
Ah shit right. If the wiki would just contain this... I would've been able to correct myself beforehand.
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I dont like this suggestion, lets keep it as it is, and focus on improving and balancing, shall we ?
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I dont like this suggestion, lets keep it as it is, and focus on improving and balancing, shall we ?
I think if we really want to focus on balancing we should really at least consider this idea. At first its a bit of a shock but I think its really valid. I have played with all fighting styles and I think this would really improve on character flexibility as well as lower our Alt count as said before.
The only thing I would change in the suggestion at first glance is the flame thrower. If you are Explosives expert then flamer would be your only melee weapon. Everything else would blow up in your face if you get rushed! so perhaps if we did this we would need to implement flamer pistols (FT) because demo builds will probably not be the strongest and might not always want to carry around such a heavy gun/ammo . What makes this work now is that demo's always have throwing tagged so they can use a variety of non-explosive weapons, so come to think of it you would now have an available skill for melee or guns. I think what you would see more of is one character going through slow shifts between fighting style's as there level, economics and general needs change.
as for everyone running around with sniper rifles and mini-guns for some kind of ultimate combo, that wouldn't really happen. people would still need to tailor their chars to a specific style of fighting in terms of perks and SPECIAL, if your gonna snipe you better keep taking those pot shots.
Because just because I'm a pretty decent shot with a rifle doesn't mean I can wield a rocket launcher.
those would be two different classes of weapon in this system, so you are right?
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funny when someone says "its based on Fallout 2 not 3", the only thing that it links to original fallout is it's content. so basically its fonline, and fonline is fonline. if you could make Unreal Tournament into MMORPG, where you craft/buy UT weapons and buy cars to move faster on the map, trade with other players, PK, roleplay, kill critters, etc etc. would you call it UT?
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I have one thing to say and one thing only...
If you add a "Guns" skill, all those double shooting snipers suddenly carry LSW's in their back pocket, because you don't need brdx2 to screw someone over, and the STR requirements for an LSW don't matter, since with as much skill in SG a sniper usually takes, they will get at least 90% chance to hit even with a -20% i bet, snipers will become big gunners AND snipers at the same time very easily.
-Ulrek-
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i remember that in FoT multi there is a default char that is sniper and BGner
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I have one thing to say and one thing only...
If you add a "Guns" skill, all those double shooting snipers suddenly carry LSW's in their back pocket, because you don't need brdx2 to screw someone over, and the STR requirements for an LSW don't matter, since with as much skill in SG a sniper usually takes, they will get at least 90% chance to hit even with a -20% i bet, snipers will become big gunners AND snipers at the same time very easily.
-Ulrek-
and when you kill them you get two prizes instead of one. They still only have so many action points and can only play one role at a time.