fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: vedaras on May 15, 2011, 03:31:04 pm
-
Well first of all i want to say, im not trying to make another "this and that is overpowered" type topic.
Now as we all played fallout 1, fallout 2 sometimes playing fonline results in strange experience. For example i was in one combat in new reno, was hit 3 times by laser pistol and the damage was: 100, 110, 125. Of course my first thought is what the fuckin fuck? I go to fallout wikia to check stats and what i see? Laser pistol, a weapon who can be crafted without any profession, has a damage of 20-35! While if we compare for example 223 pistol it has 25-30 damage. So the result is, that devs made weapon on common craftable items list being even as level 3 weapon. Well, you could now tell, that this or that was needed for balancing purpose or other, but i now compare the weapons stats with those in fallout 2 http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_2_weapons and those in 2238 http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Category:Weapons and i see that these huge increases might not be even needed while there are weapons from f2 that are not added to this game, but they have similar stats to those of new booseted 2238 weapons.
For example:
Laser pistol from 10-22 dmg to 20-35 dmg.
Plasma pistol from 15-35 dmg to 25-45 dmg.
Why boost those when we can have for example:
Phaser with 20-30 dmg. (which is very similar to new laser pistol dmg.)
YK32 Pulse pistol with 32-46 dmg. (which is very similar to new plasma pistol dmg, just a little better, but has a lower range (5 hexes), so i think it would be fine replacement for this powered plasma pistol)
Also if for example plasma pistol has 25-45 dmg now. why not to add gauss pistol as a regular weapon with its 22-32 damage (for purposes of truth i should mention that ammo makes damage better than plasma pistols, but i think that this can be modified).
Another example:
Because weapons that are being compared uses different ammo, now i will take it into account. In this example both small gun bursters have 2x bonus ranged damage, and their victim wears combat leather jacket. So the result:
P90 dmg was 12-16 and 12 bullets burst with (14-2+4) * 12 * 2 * 0,43 = 165,12 total damage and now its 13-19 and 12 bullets burst with (16-2+4) * 12 * 2 * 0,43 =185,76 total damage.
While in f2 and in 2238 (unused) there is H&K G11 and H&K G11E.
H&K G11 dmg is 10-20 and 5 bullets burst with (15-2+4) * 5 * 1,5 * 0,8 = 102 total damage.
H&K G11E dmg is 13-23 and 7 bullets burst with (18-2+4) * 7 * 1.5 * 0,8 = 168 total damage. (even worse than new p90!).
Or if you dont want to add new weapons, you can for example return upgraded fn fal 20 bullets burst as it was in f2^^
So my question is why not to add old weapons when as you see many of them are pretty much exact power as they are needed to be in fonline, and we could stick closer to f2 with some weapons that are in game (like laser/plasma pistol). What do you think about that?
-
Armour resistance to laser is ridiculous though take your example of a 223 vs a laser pistol shooting at mamk2 both hit their max damage. Even ignoring the 223s penetrate perk you get.
223
30-4/100x65 gives you a damage of 16.9
laser
35-7/100x20 gives a damage of 5.6
This is using the dt/dr calcs from the wiki anyway.
So the damage of the laser isnt more than your tier 3 gun.
I think its better to balance weapons into useability than keep them the same as fo2.
-
Merging weapon skills could help.
-
Merging weapon skills could help.
I remember Lexx mentioning that this could be a viable option , but dunno this is not fallout new vegas.
-
I think its better to balance weapons into useability than keep them the same as fo2.
the thing is that many of the hits bypasses armor, if you have 10 luck + better criticals it is around 30%. The other thing is that you took armor on which laser has biggest disadvantage (also remember that magneto-laser pistol bypasses armor also and its a real cheap upgrade). The last thing is dont forget that you compare 2 weapons, one is fuckin cheap, one is fuckin expensive and require level 3 profession to be crafted (and you want them to be even).
Also talking about balance dont forget that all weapons will never be used, some weapons just suck, you cant expect mauser to be as good as rocket launcher, and you wont increase its value just because it sucks. Same should be with laser pistol, as i told before we have weapons like pulse pistol which would be perfectly balanced in this case and energy weapon users will have no disadvantage. (except of that, that they wont have ability to get weapon with insane damage for that cheap price, but that would be very balanced and fair).
Also when you talk about balance listen to my point, these weapons which are now unused are very fuckin balanced (because upgrades to various weapons mentioned before were made to invent weapons that were already invented just unused).
-
I took a reasonable pvp armour to be shooting at, not like i chose tesla.
Yes you can upgrade the gun to magneto which then has the same penetrating perk as the 223 already has (which i ignored for the last example)
Armour bypassing is a critical which is a balance issue in its own right not jsut a weapon balance one.
And finally i dont want the lvl 1 weapon to be the same it should be worse, which it is.
-
I took a reasonable pvp armour to be shooting at, not like i chose tesla.
Yes you can upgrade the gun to magneto which then has the same penetrating perk as the 223 already has (which i ignored for the last example)
Armour bypassing is a critical which is a balance issue in its own right not jsut a weapon balance one.
And finally i dont want the lvl 1 weapon to be the same it should be worse, which it is.
Reasonable pvp armour is brotherhood armour, all others are used by bums only. Also you should not forget that many people have 2x toughness, while there are no perks giving resistance against laser weaponary. In same place i agree that 223 is still a better weapon, just by what amount. I think in here you dont seem to understand balance thing right. This is how i imagine situation balanced:
if Weapon usefulness is divided by the weapon cost is even with same equation of other weapon, then weapons are balanced. Now for example we would get something like this. Lets rate weapons from 1-100 where 100 is best. Lets rate 223 pistol 100 in here, since it is best in this situation. So laser pistol then is 80 (my opinion). Now lets check price: Laser pistol 220 caps, 223 pistol 2230 caps. I think its pretty clear now that these weapons are far from balanced, and they would be balanced if:
100 - 2230
80 - X
laser pistol would cost X caps which is 1784. And this is 5 times the price that it currently has.
But what i suggested in first place, was to make laser pistol as good as 220 caps worth weapon and add substitute like phaser with price of 1784 and being as good as current laser pistol. simple enough, fair and balanced.
-
I think you are vastly overestimating the power of the laser pistol: I just shot someone in a leather jacket for 50 40 30 and 30 damage in the eyes. If you were hit for 100 damage three times in a row you simply ran into unlucky variance.
-
I think you are vastly overestimating the power of the laser pistol: I just shot someone in a leather jacket for 50 40 30 and 30 damage in the eyes. If you were hit for 100 damage three times in a row you simply ran into unlucky variance.
sounds to me you're a fast shotter.... are you aiming to the eyes? and what were the other effects other then damage? everyone knows knockout = insta kill pretty much.
-
aiming to eyes, more crit (1), better crit, 6 luck.
edit: I hardly ever do 100+ damage even with magneto, even against armorless critters
-
aiming to eyes, more crit (1), better crit, 6 luck.
edit: I hardly ever do 100+ damage even with magneto, even against armorless critters
yes you actually need a double eyes crit built to do something in combat.
but against bluesuits that weapons is really good. i like that construct, the weapon cant fight in real battles, but it can mess sg or bg bluesuits. its the way i think all the weapons should be, i mean you use x weapon and you have a big advantage against x distance, armor, gun, etc, etc. and in other situation you will be fucked up completely. its the way that all the shooter games works. it comes good to fonline.
tough dont even imagine that EW are overpowered, because they're not, they a piece of shit in armored combat, EW should stay with the same damage, but the other suggestions should be keeped in count.
But at this time devs should know how will be the new combat system, they have they're own ideas, and i want to see it soon
-
aiming to eyes, more crit (1), better crit, 6 luck.
edit: I hardly ever do 100+ damage even with magneto, even against armorless critters
dude you have 6 luck and you want good criticals when many of stuff depends on rolls... I see it as your build drawback not laser pistols.
Reiniat: as you see in my suggestion the energy weapons damage would stay the same, it would be just made by different weapons! And i see here 2 advantages: more variety of weapons, and weapons would be closer as in original fallouts.
-
it would be nice if this information were made available. The damage formulas and such.
-
Yes you can upgrade the gun to magneto which then has the same penetrating perk as the 223 already has
In F2 magneto pistol had far more powerful "perk" than in 2238 (ignoring 5DT and 50 DT), while I don't remmember .223 doing anything.
Better have weapons like mentioned W1k useful than adding silly stuff like phasers.
but against bluesuits that weapons is really good
I'd like armor matter a little more. Armor bypasses are kinda meh (esp. they shouldn't happen vs extra-rare armors like PAs), but instakills ruin it much more - they devaluate both weapon and armor stats and should be extra rare should they exist at all.
one is fuckin cheap, one is fuckin expensive and require level 3 profession to be crafted (and you want them to be even).
Professions feel somewhat random and unfinished. You seriously think that Laser Rifle should be worse than 10mm SMG which would be equal to Minigun? Because due to professions it should.
-
In F2 magneto pistol had far more powerful "perk" than in 2238 (ignoring 5DT and 50 DT), while I don't remmember .223 doing anything.
Better have weapons like mentioned W1k useful than adding silly stuff like phasers.I'd like armor matter a little more. Armor bypasses are kinda meh (esp. they shouldn't happen vs extra-rare armors like PAs), but instakills ruin it much more - they devaluate both weapon and armor stats and should be extra rare should they exist at all.Professions feel somewhat random and unfinished. You seriously think that Laser Rifle should be worse than 10mm SMG which would be equal to Minigun? Because due to professions it should.
Laser rifle was unchanged, so it neither should be or was worse than 10 mm smg. And of course i agree that laser rifle the most used weapon of ew in serious battles should have higher ranking in professions. I should also tell that one of my points in first place was to show that increasing stats like for example for laser pistol make dis-balance in crafting, thats why i think that either prices should be balanced, or various new weapons should be added, which are fallout canonical and matches the strength that is needed in weapons balancing.
-
or various new weapons should be added, which are fallout canonical and matches the strength that is needed in weapons balancing
There aren't any, unless you take F3 weapons. And those are totally unfitting. Upgrades and mods are far better way to go in my opinion, as adding something like magneto-targeting system is for sure better doable than comming with some kind of new weapon that'd fit.
And as said already professions are probably far from being done and are going to be revmapped, so we should really wait for it.
-
There aren't any, unless you take F3 weapons. And those are totally unfitting. Upgrades and mods are far better way to go in my opinion, as adding something like magneto-targeting system is for sure better doable than comming with some kind of new weapon that'd fit.
And as said already professions are probably far from being done and are going to be revmapped, so we should really wait for it.
dude i also gave you a list of few weapons as an example and they all were from fallout 2: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_2_weapon . So these weapons are not new, and i think fallout fans would like to see as most fallout weapons as possible in game, and current weapon improvements opens that ability for devs just like that.
-
But Phasers and similar stuff you mentionend were easter eggs and won't be included into 2238.
-
But Phasers and similar stuff you mentionend were easter eggs and won't be included into 2238.
well the only weapon that was brought from star wars is phaser, all others were normal in f2 and fitting as substitutes if that is the case :)
-
Tested around fighting magneto laser pistol rapists.
EVERY, SINGLE, TIME, (10 times in a row) I am either
1. Insta killed
or
2. Knocked out twice for 100 damage. (The more common insta kill as we all know)
Some how they are also tanks. 220 HP
They also always wearing leather jacket - leather mk2
10 endurance + stonewall + metal mk2 + 226 HP tank I am using.
The fuck...
-
dude you have 6 luck and you want good criticals when many of stuff depends on rolls... I see it as your build drawback not laser pistols.
Reiniat: as you see in my suggestion the energy weapons damage would stay the same, it would be just made by different weapons! And i see here 2 advantages: more variety of weapons, and weapons would be closer as in original fallouts.
laser pistol should remain cheap since its only useful against blusesuits, if there is some way of make it AP, with ammmo, a better perk, or anything, it WILL become hard to craft.
also:
Michael: i suggest my own pk built, you cant take those perks in a properly EW built, your built is wrong for be a pk.
2toughness, 1better criticals, 1Lifegiver, 1Action boy, 1BRoF. AB is for gain 2special points for use in CH or whatever you want
uses 6Luck amd 8AG, 8end. yes it is matematically better since at lvl 18 youll be able to make double eyeshot wich means a 66+66% to critical= a critical every turn, you end with 190hp.
it make people suck balls and get angry, and newbs cry like babys... also if you find a SG or BG burster you will kill him with the plasma pistol, without problems, no matter his armor, exept MAMKII or Tesla.
if you want a desert fighter i suggest to exchange one Tougness for Cautious Nature wich will make you spawn far in the encounters and give you a little bonus to aiming all the standar encounter-pk built use this perk (i dont use it because i think is unfair).
-
I like the main idea of the topic-starter but he should be aware of many other factors concerning weapons, such as range, ammo, damage type and DR. I wouldn't mind having some extra guns to choose from though.
-
Sems that the problem isnt the gun itself, but the uber crit chanche that wouldn't allow to retaliate even with one shot.
Remember that when a man with a gun meets a man with a rifle, the one with a gun is a dead man. Seems that Fo forgot about this basic rule :p
-
As i remember each weapon have same chance for insta kill when shoting into eyes 1-5% ::)
Final damage is based on av dmg multiplicated x 4 ( when targeting eyes)
in F2 there was such furmula considering instadeath (possible only with perk better crits):
(http://images47.fotosik.pl/870/de425613d8ab9ab8gen.jpg)
i think in general in 2238 it is similar...
For sure "LOSE NEXT TURN" had been changed ( i only see it when shoting to creatures not players).
-
Sems that the problem isnt the gun itself, but the uber crit chanche that wouldn't allow to retaliate even with one shot.
Remember that when a man with a gun meets a man with a rifle, the one with a gun is a dead man. Seems that Fo forgot about this basic rule :p
when damage was boosted on laser pistol from 10-22 to 20-35 every critical hit results in massive fuckin lot of damage and the weapon is still cheaper than cheap. So once again i come to same conslusion, make it expensive or make it as it was before while adding alternatives like suggested which would match the current powered weapons strength, but have price equal to weapons strength.
-
i think in general in 2238 it is similar...
Not at all, crit table for players have been reworked many times, it is very different from F2 right now.
-
This comes in mind everytime there's discussion about Laser Pistol
A Wattz 1000 Laser Pistol. Civilian model, so the wattage is lower than military or police versions
But never found out if they mean W2k (Laser Rifle) as the police/military version, or there was supposed to be more powerful pistol from Wattz.
Anyway you could just always do the "flamethrower" trick, and pack better ammo and upgraded weapon while leaving default for starters. (ofcourse this needs some changes because of cars)
Sems that the problem isnt the gun itself, but the uber crit chanche that wouldn't allow to retaliate even with one shot.
It'd be nice if the whole 1 to 100 random part was exchanged for something more complex, but that'd be major change to Fallout gameplay.
Crit change itself is not big problem, because scoring critical means nothing for single shots, however effects of critical shots are nearly unaffected by character or weapon stats (except for safe rolls and better critical perk).
Balancing Big guns and SMGs is really much easier because they act rarely random.
-
dude you have 6 luck and you want good criticals when many of stuff depends on rolls... I see it as your build drawback not laser pistols.
I started a new char with 10 luck, and better crits and still never score 100 hp hits against critters. is there something else i'm missing? Also, I def dont crit everytime, but I only have 1 mc, but even when i do crit it's seldom a knockout so unless op is exaggerating does someone know something else i don't? (frustrating crit hit table is not public.)
-
1. Man, come to hinkley to test your build. Make like 1k shots and then you can say something.
2. What critters are you hunting, not many have more then 100hp.
3. Change weapon, take plasma rifle you will see 200+ crits.
4. Crit table isnt public and it shouldnt be.
-
Sems that the problem isnt the gun itself, but the uber crit chanche that wouldn't allow to retaliate even with one shot.
Remember that when a man with a gun meets a man with a rifle, the one with a gun is a dead man. Seems that Fo forgot about this basic rule :p
It's the crits yes. Thankfully wipe will bring anti-crits perks, armors and traits. Too bad they will likely make builds that are resistant to crits and those who aren't.
-
I started a new char with 10 luck, and better crits and still never score 100 hp hits against critters. is there something else i'm missing? Also, I def dont crit everytime, but I only have 1 mc, but even when i do crit it's seldom a knockout so unless op is exaggerating does someone know something else i don't? (frustrating crit hit table is not public.)
all critters have resistance to various damage types which is not that bad actually so its probably because of this reason. The chance of knockout/knockdown highly depends on enemies endurance and stonewall perk.
-
1. Man, come to hinkley to test your build. Make like 1k shots and then you can say something.
2. What critters are you hunting, not many have more then 100hp.
3. Change weapon, take plasma rifle you will see 200+ crits.
4. Crit table isnt public and it shouldnt be.
1. I have def made more than 1k shots, maybe 1 in 40 does 100 damage.
2. molerats, pigrats, mantis, whatevers in sw
3. Thats not the point of this thread.
4. Will you please explain why you feel this way. Please. I have been asking for a reason for this for a week, and no one can give me a straight answer.
-
The laser pistols are fine i think, they're not that OP by themselves.
It's the crit damage, since armor does not stop the damage from the crits, against a suit of metal armor and without crits the laser pistol probably won't do much more then a 10mm pistol, with crits that damage is x4 and you suddenly are hit for 100 damage, since you might as well have been bursted by some kind of laser SMG.
I almost lost while wearing Mk2 metal armor to a sneaker in a bluesuit with a plasma pistol, who did -head- shots for 120-150 damage each hit, if he wasn't so squishy i wouldn't have been able to even kill him before he killed me.
Comparing the price of a mauser vs a laser pistol i don't have a problem with the damage in non-crit shots, but when you might as well be in a bluesuit when fighting the guy with the laser pistol while he's in the same armor as you, it's a little unfair.
As for the phazer, that wasn't a serious weapon, and more of a joke, if you want to add a weapon in to the game, why not a sawed off laser rifle that you can wield in one hand?
-Ulrek-
-
if you want to add a weapon in to the game, why not a sawed off laser rifle that you can wield in one hand?
please god yes. :D
-
Let's hope Bethesda doesn't make that a DLC exclusive item.
-
Did anyone already suggested to replace armor bypass by progressive 25%, 50% and 75% bypass ?
on topic, Laser pistol is cheap, but SEC are rare and really expensive. I'd probably buy 1 SEC for 2 MFC any day of the week ^^
-
Did anyone already suggested to replace armor bypass by progressive 25%, 50% and 75% bypass ?
on topic, Laser pistol is cheap, but SEC are rare and really expensive. I'd probably buy 1 SEC for 2 MFC any day of the week ^^
Liiiieeeeessssss. Well sorta, MFC is a bit more plentiful but sec isn't THAT scarce.
-
well, they are hard to loot. its far easier to loot some mfc from encounters.
on the same topic, yes laser pistol is powerful, but you have to craft yours. you won't find one on a dead critter in 5 minutes wich means the beginning of the game is terrible as EW guy. You have to bring back EP from a vault full of rats to build your first weap (!?), and if you wanna craft cells, you have to put a bunch of lvl 2 skill points on Sciences -when all you want to upgrade is your weapon skill.
-
If you lucky you can get one pistol after a lot of shit shoveling from a trader. After another hours of shoveling another pistol for the ammo it contains.
Considering he/she doesn't have some pals who give him a full gear a starting
-
laser pistol is cheap and sec can be crafted very easy yourself. Also you man probably live in ncr, because in places like sf you can by all sec you want, same as such weapons like laser pistol.
-
You have to bring back EP from a vault full of rats to build your first weap (!?)
So you just dont want to move out of ncr or travel? there are other places for electronic parts and iirc sf mine has them too.
-
Sems that the problem isnt the gun itself, but the uber crit chanche that wouldn't allow to retaliate even with one shot.
No, it's not the crit chance, but crit effects. You can check out Fallout Tactics for ibalanced crits, which is indeed wonderful for battles. But then again it would make it quite different game.