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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Michaelh139 on April 17, 2011, 07:59:46 am
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Alright, Mercenaries (Not slaves seeing as no one ever mentions them otherwise) are a very unique feature of 2238. They allow a person with the correct stats to "hire" (buy them off these people who brainwash them into slaves!) to do your bidding combat-wise. If you choose the correct type, they can practically use ANY WEAPON you give them. This creates really interesting squad-creativity. Although sadly most tend to either go with full on rocket or full on EW squads. (Which I promise is not the most effective squad out there, although they have their purposes).
Merc vs merc squads are also extremely fun if you ever have the rarest chance to do it, seeing as only 1% of the playerbase even bothers with them unless they're dual-logging.
However, they aren't very smart, although their brutality/numbers generally make up for this, they tend to do dumb things like running after the enemies into a building with no aps to save themselves from the obvious 1hex bursts of death. They also tend to get stuck for no apparent reason in areas and you have to (What I like to call) "Refresh" them to get em moving again. (Thankfully however I am told this will be fixed in next update/wipe). Depending on the weapons, they can easily cause friendly fire to anyone, and with rockets/grenades/anyexplosiveszzz, kill themselves.
There is also the problem of Grid/spawn camping which frusturates the playerbase the most. Where you spawn in with mercs set to auto attack, insta killing or practically causing someone to piss their pants from the extreme lightning attack. Or leave mercs Riiiiiiight at the grid on auto kill to kill everyone who enters.
So the point to this thread is.... What do you think about mercenaries?
P.s. please explain why/whynot.
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I think Mercenaries are pretty useful at 2238, because mostly players are alone.
It's cheap (Depends) method to get guys to hunt/protect something.
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They are ok for a change and I tend to use "Merc Leaders" in Singleplayergames very often, as for a multiplayergame on the other hand, where the factor "competition" kicks in, it's a fail to have such strong mercenaries doing everything for the player in the game. It's an ok-ish feauture and I get why people like that - but not in a multiplayer game.
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Like said, grids and mercs just don't add up because there's too much abuse related when the two meet.
Having just one merc is fun because it's easier to keep control. When there's five mercs they might scatter all the hell over and then it's dumb to try to locate them behind walls because the leader doesn't have contours on them.
In the end the ammount of firepower one player can posess through mercs is rather over the edge. In my opinion skill should have the highest outcomes in pvp, however if someone happens to be in a big tc gang or farms alot caps he can just buy 5 rocketmercs and pwnish basically every individual player he encounters without even trying.
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They aren't doing everything, the powerful ones cost a lot, leveling them takes ages and you can lose them in less than 30 seconds if you do a mistake:
(http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8493/screen21032011003411.jpg) (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8493/screen21032011003411.jpg)
Using them (or slaves) is the only way for people who like to play a balanced, multi-purpose character (charisma, outdoorsman, crafting professions) to have a chance against pure combat builds from big gangs, who get weapons from craft alts, get to battlefields in taxi alts and get healed with drugs made by doctor alts and are unable to do anything else except shooting.
There is already a mechanism limiting their number - dynamic prices (or the time you need to gather new slaves). If it was so great everyone would just spend half a million (and eventually more) for 5 big gun mercs. In the long run nobody can afford to play this way all the time.
Yes, one player against one player with 5 mercenaries has little chance, but shouldn't he? He wasn't the one who spent 30 - 400k on them and he isn't the one who risks losing whole "investment" with one bad move. And he isn't the one who is a lot weaker without them because he needs extra 5-8 SPECIAL points.
The only thing I would change is removing equipement of new mercenaries, so you would have to equip them by yourself.
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I've got mixed feelings about mercs. I like them, but I don't like the fact that they exist as very expensive, one off protection. They're not something you keep with you for when you bum around the wastes, but instead they're instant purchasable fight winners. And as Jovanka pointed out, very easily lost. They're toys for the rich kids, and the ones that aren't will die pretty quickly (poor old dog mercs).
I guess I'd prefer all followers to be a permanent part of how you play, as you level them up, equip them and they respawn alongside you. I'd prefer it if every player was using all their available companion slots most of the time. Although I do think being able to have five followers in tow is too much for a PvP game. One, two or maybe three seems a lot more sane.
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Then you should like post wipe.
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Then you should like post wipe.
Oh god, now all the GMs and developers are talking about wipe!
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I think the main problem with mercs is the fact that they can use rocket launchers. as far as PvP goes. that's the best long ranged squad you can get. since they just bombard the enemy.
A fight where LSW mercs are running around shooting people and being smart about it is still tough, but you can still just shoot them from close range easily. same with plasma mercs.
But all and all. i think slaves and mercs are an important feature, since they can be used to guard bases. and act like the companions you could get in fallout 1&2. so that CH builds are viable.
The only extreme nerf i would consider for them. is making a custom set of sprite packages. where the rocket launcher sprite is removed. rather then them using the normal player sprites, they use the custom non-launcher sprite.
-Ulrek-
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We are better of wouthout mutants I hope they newer return it was a stupid idea in the first place to insert mutant mercs.
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Yes, one player against one player with 5 mercenaries has little chance, but shouldn't he? He wasn't the one who spent 30 - 400k on them and he isn't the one who risks losing whole "investment" with one bad move. And he isn't the one who is a lot weaker without them because he needs extra 5-8 SPECIAL points.
This is why it needs to be changed ASAP, everyone things it is so righteous to spend thousands on stuff that gives absolute advantage.
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Perhaps a tradeoff for limiting merc numbers is to make better commands available with high CHA/Speech.
Also, give dogs Swift Learner (doubled if handler has Animal Friend perk- put it in), have more dog options, and maybe have a merc that is a dog handler.
That one maybe should take up 2 merc slots, since he has his own mercs.
I want to be able to independently target dogs in combat.
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Suck a brahmin tit
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Interesting feature, but so exploitable. Grids/spawns without previews camping and setting mercs to shoot anyone on sight. Poping from world map with mercs (mutants with RL) killing one or 2 player and leaving before ennemy can kill mercs, since mercs dont have combat timers of there own so they can leave even when attacked if leader dont have is combat timer on.
It was an interesting idea back when some players decided to put plenty of mercs in Gecko mine, claiming it as is own. But the way it worked was less interesting, anyone spawning would have is Fonline freeze, and would need to log off and back fast enough to survive the mercs attacks and then kill them or manage to run away, there was like 30-40 of them, so you were likely to be dead before loading was complete anyway.
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This is why it needs to be changed ASAP, everyone things it is so righteous to spend thousands on stuff that gives absolute advantage.
As far as I know, everyone started this game with level 1 character and some junk in his/her pocket. If someone has advantage, he/she had to work for it. It's not Quake to play 20 minute matches with perfectly equal chances. At least not yet. But yea, rocket mercenaries are too powerful, they should have combat timeouts and so on to prevent obvious abuse.
The discussion is pointless anyway because we don't know about the changes after wipe and it seems like they were made already. :P
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It was an interesting idea back when some players decided to put plenty of mercs in Gecko mine, claiming it as is own. But the way it worked was less interesting, anyone spawning would have is Fonline freeze, and would need to log off and back fast enough to survive the mercs attacks and then kill them or manage to run away, there was like 30-40 of them, so you were likely to be dead before loading was complete anyway.
That guy was also dual/fast relogging afaik. But I guess this could be done by big factions if they wanted to as well.
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i installing fonline but where doesi find those_çç-('é"'(-è_çà)=ù*ùù$ files crittedat sh+tdat say me please??
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On your Fallout 2 disc.
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The discussion is pointless anyway because we don't know about the changes after wipe and it seems like they were made already.
Well, two things from the previous posts won't be possible. Mercs won't be able to disappear when in battletimeout anymore and you won't be able to leave mercs sitting on maps without thier master. So if you want to camp somewhere you actually have to be there too.
I think there will also be a period of not being able to be hit or move when you spawn into a map too.
As for Mutant mercs, you won't be able to get as many as you can now - and to get to the maximum amount will require a lot more effort than a Ch10 alt. (A level 1 Ch10 alt would be able to get one Mutant, if I remember correctly)
Different Mercs have different requirements, so it would be possible to get a lot of Melee guys, or one of two Mutants, with the same character.
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Well, two things from the previous posts won't be possible. Mercs won't be able to disappear when in battletimeout anymore and you won't be able to leave mercs sitting on maps without thier master. So if you want to camp somewhere you actually have to be there too.
I think there will also be a period of not being able to be hit or move when you spawn into a map too.
As for Mutant mercs, you won't be able to get as many as you can now - and to get to the maximum amount will require a lot more effort than a Ch10 alt. (A level 1 Ch10 alt would be able to get one Mutant, if I remember correctly)
Different Mercs have different requirements, so it would be possible to get a lot of Melee guys, or one of two Mutants, with the same character.
Hmmm... I am now becoming skeptical, but I guess we'll find out won't we? :D
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Well, two things from the previous posts won't be possible. Mercs won't be able to disappear when in battletimeout anymore and you won't be able to leave mercs sitting on maps without thier master. So if you want to camp somewhere you actually have to be there too.
I think there will also be a period of not being able to be hit or move when you spawn into a map too.
As for Mutant mercs, you won't be able to get as many as you can now - and to get to the maximum amount will require a lot more effort than a Ch10 alt. (A level 1 Ch10 alt would be able to get one Mutant, if I remember correctly)
Different Mercs have different requirements, so it would be possible to get a lot of Melee guys, or one of two Mutants, with the same character.
Can we make the assumption that you have altered being able to find mercs on the world map now? Or else the lack of them being able to leave while in a combat timeout may cause problems.
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Can we make the assumption that you have altered being able to find mercs on the world map now? Or else the lack of them being able to leave while in a combat timeout may cause problems.
Ultimately, if your a merc leader, from what I see, you're going to have to fight every single encounter to the bitter end unless you wanna lose 1-All (depending on type) of your mercs, so either combat timer is removed from encounters for mercenaries.... or something... The very build will go more extinct than it already has. If anything wiped out.
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Mercs won't be able to disappear when in battletimeout anymore
Ok I like the idea... to stop people from using rocket mercs like bombers, popping in and out of towns. But i do see a problem with this.
we know th only way to escape a battle while in a car is to be in real time, right? So say you're with your mercs, riding in your hummer... and you get a random encounter. 1 merc fires off a shot before you can jump in the hummer and leave. Is he left behind?
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Ok I like the idea... to stop people from using rocket mercs like bombers, popping in and out of towns. But i do see a problem with this.
we know th only way to escape a battle while in a car is to be in real time, right? So say you're with your mercs, riding in your hummer... and you get a random encounter. 1 merc fires off a shot before you can jump in the hummer and leave. Is he left behind?
Better question would probably be if there are any improvements to go with merc ai, sorry if i sound ignorant or anything but yeah i havent played a merc leader, i keep 5 brahmin around my 9 CH char ;D
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Better question would probably be if there are any improvements to go with merc ai, sorry if i sound ignorant or anything but yeah i havent played a merc leader, i keep 5 brahmin around my 9 CH char ;D
Not really, AI is good enuogh if you're an experience leader.
But if you cannot even manage them correctly because you can't go anywhere with them...
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Considering the forced real-time combat of most important areas, NPC followers need to be removed. I said it before, I am saying it again. Having swarms of NPCs to do your lazy work in a multiiplayer game needs to be taken out so bad. Just like stealing needs to be reworked or removed, it doesn't really belong in a multiplayer game (while I think Gambling could be useful ingame, just not sure what we could do with it or really think we should devote such work to such a possibly 'minor' skill compared to the litany of other unbalanced crap to deal with).
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Considering the forced real-time combat of most important areas, NPC followers need to be removed.
I think NPC followers are fine in theory, but right now they can just be switched onto auto pilot - you don't need to watch your back because your mercs will sense anyone entering the map with their magic powers. I don't think followers should be able to attack NPCs or players without explicit instructions - players should have to attack them first.
I also dislike forced realtime, but with the current TC that's never going to change. You can't have turn based in an area where any idiot can just wander in mid town and get trapped in a fight they have no interest in - I am still utterly baffled as to why the biggest element of PvP is in towns of all places.
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Ill say it Again - 1 Merc for 1 Alt no more !!!
This one who love to have own PET will have it, and it wont ruin the pvp.
I dont want to see it again:
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9120/screen16012011193021.jpg)
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Is anyone else seeing a problem there that doesn't involve mercs?
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Let's just wait for wipe and see what changes have been made, and if it isn't enough making them start out weak as fuck and actually require weeks of leveling to get good is a simple solution. Especially if you can resurrect them but for the base price multiplied by the level, I would still be a merc leader if that came to be but i doubt gangs would have many merc leader alts.
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making them start out weak as fuck and actually require weeks of leveling to get good is a simple solution.
Obligatory training montages.
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For me.. Mercs as missunderstanding..
I would consider them only to protect gang/faction bases. But not to travel with them and hunt other players.
Each player has no chances in confrontation with merc leader +2 mercs ( i just want to say that lowering their number up to 2 max won't change situation) in real time combat mode.
It is simple calculation - 3 shots against one ( even if it would be critical hit in eyes + knock down + knock out). 3 rockets against 1 critical hit/ rocket/whatever you want - you just have no chances.
so this class is overpowered.
You can consider other situation: 6 normal players (armed in any available weapon and armor) vs 6 mercs leader (amred in any vailable weapon and armor)
so we have 6 guns against 18 - tell me know who will win in real time combat mode?
Conclusion is simple: make merc leader because this proffesion has no weak points and you can own any other char. Additionaly, make a gang formed only with merc leaders and you will own whole server.
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Are Mercenary really that powerful??
Wht I can tell is in a fight with local militia at Gecko, I lost 3 rocket mutants in 10secs
All my mutants are at least 400hp :)
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Are Mercenary really that powerful??
Yes. Amassing mercenaries can end fun and fair tc/skirmish fights in matter of seconds.
If bank interest hadn't given us so much money, there wouldn't be that much mercs but when there would they would bring fast and undeserved victories.
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Yeah I hope next season that cash isn't what decides the quality of your mercs. I've heard that some followers will be respawnable and level up after the Wipe, which makes me happy. I will also offer to personally rewrite all follower dialogue so they sound like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxj3cxYWYY).
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I like this idea giving them more personality wouldn't hurt at all, also they should get a bit more self awareness like the followers in either 1 or 2. I remember once when Sulik burst me to hard I wanted to give him a little lesson and shot him in the leg well as an answer he killed me. Followers shouldn't care about friendly fire as long as u don't aim at them but when you do they should rebel. This should applied to milita and slaves too.
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Yes. Amassing mercenaries can end fun and fair tc/skirmish fights in matter of seconds.
If bank interest hadn't given us so much money, there wouldn't be that much mercs but when there would they would bring fast and undeserved victories.
at real-time fight, number of teamates is more important then ur equipments
as I said b4, I lost 3 rocket mutants within 10secs, tht was a fight with local militia
if ur team cant fight a leader with mercenaries, then how can u fight those local militia?
mercenaries are more stuipd then local militia, at least local militia will use FA
about the bank interest, i suppose DEV. will do sth about them at the next wipe
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i wasnt playing for long time, and now i cant belive what i am experiencing.
15 people attack town, then 5 owners come with 10 mercs, those mercs join militia, gets 500hp and wipes out attackers as nothing.
[rage]What the hell is this some kind of ***ing PvM or what ?!! [/rage]
So Devs are you going to fix this somehow ? If yes, WHEN ?
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Mercs is evil, stupid idea, an idea which spoils the whole game !!!!!!
Leaving only the weak slaves![/size][/size][/size][/size][/font]
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I want unlimited number of slaves in my base. I use up Cute Slaves regularly, and 4 is not enough.
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would be awesome to have everyone be able to hire 5 mercs(or slaves) no matter what charisma is. (lulz, huge populated wars)
but if seriosly... i hate and love mercs, well they're fun to play with, but they're deadly annoyning too, if for example abused in combat. (hint: dual logs, bug abusing, waiting on WM for noobs to enter town to get blowed up by mercs, etc)
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would be awesome to have everyone be able to hire 5 mercs(or slaves) no matter what charisma is. (lulz, huge populated wars)
This is what I would really like to see. Charisma is a dead Special anyways, even with mercs and such. It would bring a shitload more of intensity into the fighting.
And if anyone could buy mercs.... at some point only the ones who can really afford them will be able to buy them.
(And this is NOT a problem. It was this wipe because of the severe caps exploitation of TC, thus gangs had shittons of endless caps. Otherwise it would not have gotten out of hand like it has).
It would certainly put everyone on equal grounds at least. You can't complain about it.
Things like "OH MY FUCKING GAWD DELETE MERCS CUZ I RAGE AND MAKE NO SOLUTION JUST RAGGGEEE CUS I GOTZ KILLED BY MERCS!!!!!" Will be easily won by the arguement "Well why don't you buy some yourself and fight them?" and "I don't have the caps" Will also be pointless as the arguement by: "Well why don't you go get some caps to buy them then?"
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Maybe a higher character level, for overall more character HP and the introduction of more powerful armor to the players for less quick/insta deaths would make mercs more balanced
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Personally I don't like the idea of making slaves and mercs not to depend on charisma there are already chars with 1 st thanks to the thing that little carry weight isn't that discouraging now there would be powerbuild merc leaders with one st and ch leading a huge army of rocket guys/gals. I would rather see harsher side for low st and ch but thats go a bit off topic. Back to mercs the system will change it was said lot of times lately. As I know number of mercs will be limited.
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Things like "OH MY FUCKING GAWD DELETE MERCS CUZ I RAGE AND MAKE NO SOLUTION JUST RAGGGEEE CUS I GOTZ KILLED BY MERCS!!!!!" Will be easily won by the arguement "Well why don't you buy some yourself and fight them?" and "I don't have the caps" Will also be pointless as the arguement by: "Well why don't you go get some caps to buy them then?"
It's not only rage and whine. There are people who simply don't want to fight with or against npcs. To them it's not enjoyable gameplay. It's the same thing as excessive sneaking 2 sessions ago or sneak bluesuit tc. It can be done but it's not fun.
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Playing with sneak or mercenaries leader could be fun. And must be fun.
The problem is, and remains the same.
Big gang quickly using lvl1 proxy to buy them, with caps, that others don't have, for any kind of purposes.
(this could be arguable, but i think this is the only blame we can find about them)
We should forbid proxies, or let everyone dual log. (no proxy)
Make level merc leader, to be able to control mercenaries. (no lvl1)*
Make level mercenaries to be able to fight with them. (no instant overpowering)**
Make mercenaries aquirable by various way, or be cheap (no caps abuse)
So the player who play a merc leader would be someone who actually love to PLAY with them, as followers, not grid camper or mine abusers.
Personnally, i have some mercenaries leader that i like to play.
I don't want mercenaries to be removed or underpowered because of some abuse that can be avoided without so extreme measures.
I don't want to see only two kind of players... (sniper crit, bg rocket)
As for the PVP/PVE debate, i think both sides must be equal. (the balance is already on PVP side)
Mercenaries can be only bough with 5 Magnetic perks.(one by perk with charisma requirement at each level)*
Make them start with same hp combat skills than a level 1 player, makes them very good at level 21 (no respawn)**
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Are we ever going to get Follower-boosting perks/traits? Like bonus damage resistance for them, etc.? I think I've finally found a use for sex appeal.
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Are we ever going to get Follower-boosting perks/traits? Like bonus damage resistance for them, etc.? I think I've finally found a use for sex appeal.
Oh... my... god... :)
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Make mercenaries aquirable by various way, or be cheap (no caps abuse)
So the player who play a merc leader would be someone who actually love to PLAY with them, as followers, not grid camper or mine abusers.
+1, good one.
In f2 you had no mercs, you had friends. you`ve done something to them so they decided to follow you.
It was nice.
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In f2 you had no mercs, you had friends. you`ve done something to them so they decided to follow you.
It was nice.
That's how I've always felt about it.
Once we've got levellable+respawnable F2 style companions, I think we'd be better off getting rid of mercs. If you want to have NPC backup, it should be a workable, long term goal. It creates new gameplay challenges and things for players to aim for. I don't like the thought of someone just dropping 200k caps onto their merc alt and having an instant 5 man army (or 2 man in the new post wipe system).
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I don't want any NPC following me at all. And if I could chose I'd love to see no NPCs fighting me in 'PvP' either.