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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lordus on January 05, 2011, 12:22:37 am
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Hello,
on TLA server, there is possibility to craft and set up sandbags with sand on ground. It works like barrier. You can drop one sandbags or stack others up to five sandbags on one hex.
1-3 sandbags means that you are not possible to walk over it (but you can see over it and you can shoot over it), 4-5 sandbags on one hex cause that you cant see (or shoot) over that hex (and walk too).
This gives you great opportunity how to defend some position. On other way, this mechanism is balanced that you can simply take that sandbags from that hex, until there will not exist any one. Also weight of each sandbags is quite big (cca 50 kgs), so there is not simple way how to spam location.
So my question is, is there a possibility (technicaly) to implement this mechanism into Fonline 2238 after next wipe (in TLA it works well)?
Here is simple screen: (http://s14.radikal.ru/i187/1006/98/0f2d14c76e03.jpg) There is only one level of sandbags.
Possible implementing problems:
1) On TLA, there is more simple FOV, so you can see everything in your FOV even it is behind the walls, so the FOV system is problematic
2) I dont know if their maps are not quite dynamic, but i dont thinks so..
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While the idea is nice and all, the screenshot proves why no one dares to implement this on this server.
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That idea screams trolling and griefing.
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While the idea is nice and all, the screenshot proves why no one dares to implement this on this server.
Welll, i heard that mines and plastic explosives will be implemented again and they have even bigger PK potential than sand bags. So i think with some kind of regulation, it could work well. On 2238, you have town previews, so you can enter by different direction and i readed russian forum and they made countermesure: dynamite destorys that sandbags.
Also the weight of that bags is big so it is not as easy to plant silently whole wall (radio channel O, anti pks gangs,...). Also it is kind of resource investition, sandbags dont grow on trees or they are not dropped in encouters, so you can plant 1t of sandbags whole hour and after few minutes, it could be destroyed by enemies, if you dont protect it.
The big benefit i see is that you can make PvP or TC more variable than now, even on same locations.
But my original point was if it is possible to implement in technical way, not game balancing one.
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Maybe there could be limits for places of sandbacks?
Like not near of spawn place (about 10hex far or more)
And limits for how much you can put them into ground (maybe about 20 enough.. totally)
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Welll, i heard that mines and plastic explosives will be implemented again and they have even bigger PK potential than sand bags. So i think with some kind of regulation, it could work well. On 2238, you have town previews, so you can enter by different direction and i readed russian forum and they made countermesure: dynamite destorys that sandbags.
Also the weight of that bags is big so it is not as easy to plant silently whole wall (radio channel O, anti pks gangs,...). Also it is kind of resource investition, sandbags dont grow on trees or they are not dropped in encouters, so you can plant 1t of sandbags whole hour and after few minutes, it could be destroyed by enemies, if you dont protect it.
The big benefit i see is that you can make PvP or TC more variable than now, even on same locations.
But my original point was if it is possible to implement in technical way, not game balancing one.
I see where you're coming from, but I also meant that it just looks fucking ugly on maps.
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I see where you're coming from, but I also meant that it just looks fucking ugly on maps.
I dont want to start flame, not with players, not with GM. We can talk about estetics, yes, it is not look orderly, but it is another game mechanism that could enrich the game. On TLA it works fine.
1) In visible bases concept, it is another way how to defend your base (with en. power field, mines, C4s).
2) At King of the hill scenario (like Cathedral on TLA: call BH or Encl, wait for 20 minutes, than car with stuff arives) you can better defend your position in way how enemy do not expect. It is more about few sandbags placed in right position than about long unbreakable walls.
3) I know wastelanders. You can place picture of Santa Maria created by couins on ground and after half of hour, the picture is gone. They are like cleaners. And of course, i think that this could be totaly disabled in guarded places.
P.S.: This picture is not my own, i found it on web, i am not sand bag pk.
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I see where you're coming from, but I also meant that it just looks fucking ugly on maps.
That is a pitiful excuse. Sorry.
I liek it, but what would newbies do? If all grids were sandbagged, they could not even be able to run in and out to avoid being killed in first place which is what most must do now.
Also, as long as it is not able to place in gaurded maps, and with adjustments, sure.
And of course, i think that this could be totaly disabled in guarded places.
just noticed that :P.
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That is a pitiful excuse. Sorry.
This is not an excuse, it is my personal opinion about this issue, since I already cleared that the idea itself is nice.
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Yes is nice.But that reuquires more work to implement it.But i would really like to see in 2238 some stuff from TLA .
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This is not an excuse, it is my personal opinion about this issue, since I already cleared that the idea itself is nice.
Alright, its just when you said "no one would dare to put on server" i kinda took that as a hell no with sarcasm.
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I liek it, but what would newbies do? If all grids were sandbagged, they could not even be able to run in and out to avoid being killed in first place which is what most must do now.
I agree that every ingame mechaniscs should not be unbalancing. In comparsion to innocent sandbags, i can tell that we have supermutant artilery that is not on TLA, so they want to ambush someone, they have to create wall of sandbags, plant there a lot of mines and then wait, on 2238 you can buy 4 supermutants with rocket almost for free and kill several best equiped players in few seconds.. But i dont want to continue in this way.
Dont forget, that most of pvp chars would not be able to carry even 1 sand bag, because of high weight. You need caravan or brahmin, you need time to load and unload.. Not simple.
But possibilities are that you can cut off some streets, or it could help roleplaying projects like TTLA do now (Redding), because you can set up secure coridors and enemy should not swarm you, you can create gunports at locations that nobody expects (in Klamath plains i.e.),.. many many possibilities.
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Full support... even if there was an expedition to encircle whole part of town GM would get to know sooner or later... and yeah it looks cool and war-like. Another thing to make your base more beautiful.
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Is it possible when standing next to it and determined by FoV direction that when standing by sandbage at 1hex it could give you temporary AC boost?
Snipers wouldn't have a problem naturally but Big gunners would have trouble with their simple spray and pray method because sandbags would absorb the bullets realisticly.
Btw i would like to point out that this implementation could also be a good tactic for both sides, people using sandbags at a certain distance can be flanked and trapped, and they could be sniped away at a safe distance and they wouldnt be able to immediately attack without enough snipers of their own.
While the defending side would have advantages already obvious.
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and yeah it looks cool and war-like.
Wow, talking about having arguments here.
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With some restrictions, I would like to see this implemented. At least to betatest it, thats what were doing
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But it's all about what's best for the whole as a community, not personal perferences, amirite?
Perhaps objects and certain occulsion can provide some additional DR while in cover.
(But games like CoH give you cover bonuses even if you are on the wrong side from which the enemy is firing!)
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I don't see this feature working well with playerbase we have now. Putting too much restrictions on it will destroy whole idea, and without restrictions it will be yet another thing used to annoy others. Year, year and half ago i will vote 'yes'. But now, for public maps? No.
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I don't see this feature working well with playerbase we have now. Putting too much restrictions on it will destroy whole idea, and without restrictions it will be yet another thing used to annoy others.
Exactly.
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In general, i dont know if aproach of regulations concretely, concept of guarded towns, is not more harmfull than it would not exist.
We can compare 2 long time existing severs, TLA and 2238 and their aproach. On TLA (i dont think that TLA is ideal server, in general, i think that there are good thing, ideas, but i like 2238 more), so on TLA, there is freedom not regulated by NPCs in guarded locations, in fact, your freedom is limited by other players, that could kill you, robb you... . It has that effect, that some players unites into militia and they are guardig that location by themselfs.
In 2238, there are guarded locations, but everybody knows that it is only illusion and there are plenty ways how you can lose your possesion or life and you cant often actively guard yourself (or your friend), because of that regulations. The purpose of this is to help newbies and other players to orient, find way, in wasteland so they can settle in this server. Does this work? When they visit first unguarded city to explore world that they think they know (from Fallout 1,2), they are immediately kicked to their... by PKs, robbers..
So i dont think so, that in general, regulations and protection is always helpful, moreover, balancing of this guarding system exhausting developer resources that could be aimed to adding new content... .
Back to topic, what worst thing could happend by planting some sandbags?
1) absolut block of spawn points.. problem, i agree
2) limitations of entrance to any places.? on other way, this is also opportunity to players to break that defense.
Solution?
1) unavaibility to plant on spawn points
2) town preview
3) weight of each sand bag
4) simple click on sand bag barrier would put you sand bag to inventory (like on TLA, so you can "disasemble" that wall)
5) you should be able to destroy it by using science like any other thing (so you can disasemble and destroy that wall)
6) price ... so you could be able to sell it (players would clean it from ground for money)
7) resource needed to craft
Good thing is that this concept already exist and we can use them in its balanced shape. And many others that are on TLA. It is shame that i (Lordus) have to tell you about features that are more than half year old on TLA server.. Dont you think?
But funny thing is that nobody is concerned by fact that supermutants teleporting fatal firepower is destroying the PvP for periods more than one year, but you are concerned of bag of sand...
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Estimated time left to put large sandbag dick in NCR: 0min 25 sec.
Lordus I got your point and all, but no, this won't work here.
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Make it so you have to gather the 50 pounds of sand yourself by hand to make each one (plus a brahmin hide for the bag proper). Not typical desert sand, mind you, but super special deluxe crafting sand that occurs in desert maps only and even then there's a 0.05% chance of one pound of special crafting sand appearing in such a map. The sprite for the sand blends seamlessly with the environment and there's exactly zero cosmetic difference between normal sand and special sand. If your combined gambling and speech skill is 200% or higher you will receive a message upon entering an encounter that there is special sand here. Also, for each dollar you donate to the server you receive a credit for 1 ounce of super special deluxe crafting sand.
The sandbags themselves gives your character +5 AC vs. shots to the legs and groin (because no one in Fallout even considers to crouch or go prone, ever). To achieve this bonus at least one sandbag fortification hex must be between you and the opponent. Each sandbag fortification requires 10 50-pound sandbags to construct.
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The whole idea is not to have players constructing their own perma rape cages.
Learn how to use cover.
Implementing a winning strategy is 80% of the fun :)
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I have a suggestion, why not make certain parts of a town "destructible" for a certain amount of time (until tc timer is done, or a general respawn timer), such as a water tower or whatever that can be felled to restrict access to a certain part.
Other than that, letting people freely block shit will lead to RapeCage (tm)
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I agree with Lordus , this is good idea . And sandbags could be placed only inside TC area.
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I agree with Lordus , this is good idea . And sandbags could be placed only inside TC area.
Lets see how much you agree after finding it impossible to attack a certain town that has been epicly sandbagged to make it so.
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But , if there will be only build 3-4 sandbags in town so it wont be horribly.
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Thats not the issue.
The issue is giving players "free" placement over where to put these obstructions imho.
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Personally I'd just like to see pvp mechanics polished, then think about new important features. Implementing new features over unfinished basis is always a bad idea.
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I really think this suggestion would be awesome, because it add so much possibility in PvP, for guarding places, it would bring an awesome interest.
Also, I really think that not implement that because "it will be abused" is dumb. Almost everything is/was abusable, at least a little. Bank interest, sneak, karma, mercenaries... You can correct things to be "less abusable", but players are players. They will always find a way to make what they got uber effective. Should we disable all interesting features because "it is abusable"?
Also, the way to limit problems sound pretty effective to me. What, it weight 50, most player can't even carry one if they are equipped. But if they want to destroy it, they can still dismantle it. Some guys grid camping with it? You enter with a dynamite, and problem is solved (and btw, spawning where guys are grid camping is a suicide anyway, even without sand bag). Don't worry, poor newbie will always be killed by organized PK even without this feature, they dont' really need it...
Just limiting you ennemies moves doesn't mean you have won...
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Should we disable all interesting features because "it is abusable"?
No, we should fix the abuses first and then implement new features.
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No, we should fix the abuses first and then implement new features.
Then we will have some years to wait before new features.
It's a beta. Ofc new features will be abused. We have to implement it to be able to fix it.
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I've been playing on TLA few months ago, and I can tell, that it is much easier to dissassemble a sandbag-wall then to assemble it.
The filled sandbags were pretty heavy, even a packmule alt wasn't able to carry more than 3 at one time, and there was a cooldown for filling a sandbag. It actually took more than 15 minutes for 2 people to completely block a single enterance (enterance itself and few hexes behind it) and it took about 3 minutes for one character to completely dissassemble it. What I'm trying to say, is that if you're not actively defending the sandbag-wall then it's practicly useless. (It's much easier to camp all entrances with mercs or undermine NCR with dynamite)
If it could be placed only in TC areas then, the only problem I see is that it cannot be dissassebled by very weak characters.
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I beleive we will see sandbags in domination, with them only being able to be deployed on those maps.
We want there to be lots of features that can be used on them - sandbags, mines, fences you can turn on and off, sewers for short cuts, turrets you can repair, etc.
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Just limiting you ennemies moves doesn't mean you have won...
Doing that with only taking cover right now and clever player placement/variety, pretty much does.
Oh, other than having a gang of supermuties.
Then we will have some years to wait before new features.
It's a beta. Ofc new features will be abused. We have to implement it to be able to fix it.
Not really...but is there a point in implementing a feature that needs to be dumbed down to oblivion so that it is of use without being an abuse fest ?
There is no need to break TC more than it is right now.
I'm not saying that there isn't a need for more variety right now, but giving players an absolute choice as to what to block isn't a great idea.
Besides, I don't see the point. There is usually enough cover to restrict enemy movement if you are smart about it.
Giving even more power will just make fights more unbalanced.
Only 3 sandbags are needed to camp Gecko's scrap yard for instance :) Im sure the same can be said for other towns.
Even if the sandbags can be destroyed, they would still give an epicly unfair advantage in this and other cases.
Of course, this is all in my humble opinion.
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Then we will have some years to wait before new features.
It's a beta. Ofc new features will be abused. We have to implement it to be able to fix it.
Years is exaggerated, but surely it's gonna take more time to see new features. But then we got clean table to place those new features without having to worry about changing them again because something that was implemented before needed fixing and it affected the new feature. What happens when new features are laid on top of unfinished features is expenential increase in abuse or completely new methods of abuse. For example let's say alts are an abuse. Then you have fast relog which alongside with alts create pretty troubblesome and game breaking playstyle. If either fast relog or alts were already fixed before, we wouldn't have fast relogging fighterbuilds/looters.
I can't say that sandbags would have the same problem but who knows for sure? Pvp isn't particularly finished and there's surely going to be changes to character builds and who knows what. New features are alright if they fix some particular problem or their effect is contained but if they just add new activity on top of already unfinished material, new problems are quaranteed.
Since Solar said sandbags will only be used in Domination, it's alright since the feature is contained to that area of gameplay only.
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Domination mode is good way how to start. I hope we will be able to see this feature in other places like TC cities and others. You are afraid of sideeffects, that are eliminated in TLA because of values i described before.
If someone want to PK somewhere, it is more easy to do it without sandbags (you can see from town preview) because the best advantage is to be hidden. So dont afraid of this. I repeat, this is not new idea, this works for half a year at TLA server at every locations!!! and there is not anything like cities filled with sandbags...
And because maps are not dynamic, this could replace this disadvantage.
I beleive we will see sandbags in domination, with them only being able to be deployed on those maps.
We want there to be lots of features that can be used on them - sandbags, mines, fences you can turn on and off, sewers for short cuts, turrets you can repair, etc.
I have question. I know maps could not be dynamic, there could be only few dynamic objects (gates,...). But did you though about bypassing this problem, that you can i.e. create one map and then modify it on five six places (doors instead of walls, walls instead of doors), so you can create i.e. dozen variation from one map. One of that variation of map would randomly loaded before team enters that domination location. So nobody would exactly know what exact map there would be (some variation better for SGnunners, some from snipers, BG...) and this unpredictable element could be very challenging (good combination of team,...).
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So i only flew over the most posts after the first page so i dont know if this has been posted already:
Maybe using a knife (quality could depend, maybe only cmbtKnife is sharp enough) on the sandbags would resolve in instant destroying as the bag is cut and sand flows out of it. (yeah its a bit unrealistic).
but its an easy (yet not too easy as you have to do it with every sandbag of the stack on the hex) way to destroy sandbag-walls that arent guarded. And non guarded defence shouldnt be too strong in resistance as it would be too much build-and-forget mentalitly
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Or maybe u can throw a spear to destroy it at long range
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Or maybe u can throw a spear to destroy it at long range
LMAO that would need to be one hell of a spear
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LMAO that would need to be one hell of a spear
or one hell of a throwing arm.
A spear would pierce the sandbag and left stuck inside it, blocking the hole, so the sand cant flow out except you let the spear pierce the sandbag completly and fly out of the other side.
A knife could cut along the side of the sandbag and produce a long cut like this, where sand can flow out on a broad space.
This is just a realism remark. Normally we shouldnt count on realism if gameplay and fun can be highered. But thats just my opinion bro.
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even if you slash a sandbag, that won't get all the sand out of it although you will effectively reduce the protection from them. we are talking about stacked up ones here though aren't we? not just a single bag lying there.
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even if you slash a sandbag, that won't get all the sand out of it although you will effectively reduce the protection from them. we are talking about stacked up ones here though aren't we? not just a single bag lying there.
indeed.
instant destroying as the bag is cut and sand flows out of it. (yeah its a bit unrealistic).
i though about a knife and a "use on" just because the sandbags wouldnt need to be "shootable" as they need to be if you wanna throw spears on them.