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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: yoz on December 21, 2010, 01:17:44 pm
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Remove the mercs' autoshoot option to make merc leaders use the mercenary Alt key interface and actually play the game.
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Remove the mercs' autoshoot option to make merc leaders use the mercenary Alt key interface and actually play the game.
and render them completely usseles: mercs cant gaurd anymore. Also good luck trying to alt click a running target quickly.
the Time it takes to alt click your target is enough to kill you easily. Don't tell me its fair, leader builds put 6-8 points into charisma which you can use for other skills.
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Let me expand that a bit.
Last wipe, there was a discussion about minigunners overpowering everything because they dealt the highest damage attack with just one click, while small gunners and energy gunners dealt less damage and had to aim.
This wipe, we have merc leaders overpowering everything, but the disbalance this time is so bad it's ridiculous and almost funny. Last wipe, big gunners at least had to point and click. This wipe, merc leaders don't even have to do that - they don't have to do anything. We have a build in the game that is being rewarded for doing nothing. You do nothing to deal the firepower of 5 big gunners.
Does the Alt key menu remain in place if the target moves? If so, then attacking with a merc leader will be the same as attacking with a build that has to aim. The interface is there and it should be utilized.
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I am against supermutants artillery, current "fire and leave" mechanism combined with impossibility of elimination of dual loggers ruins the game. This is fact that nobody disagree with. But also i think, that setting mercs options to auto kill is not bad. It could help i.e. roleplayers, i used this feauture to kill all tent thiefs,... .
I think that there should exist latency between entering TC zone and unfreezing the mercs (so no sudden teleport artillery strikes). Also i think that there should exist something like tree of which mercs you can use, depends on level. (So no more lvl. 5 supermutant leaders), also you should have karma with mercenaries, so if you loose many mercs, you will not be avaible to hire new (you will be able to enslave npcs only) and you will have to wait...
Many ideas.. Problem i see and i can compare is this: On TLA server, if Cvet see that there is any problem with game mechanism, he eliminates the reason of it first, then he starts his works on repair. I.e.: on TLA server, there does not work Armor Piercing ammunition from some reason. His temporary solution? Ability to "recraft" AP ammo into full metal jacket type.
Here you can temporary erase NPCs that sells supermutants or even all mercs and safe PvP balance.
If you want to see, how easy you can kill enemy via second computer alt supermutants leader, look at this video, from 10 to 25 second. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXPBVKvIjhw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXPBVKvIjhw)
One click on second computer, 15 seconds and thats all you need to ruin other players daily entertainment. We know about this for many months (even before wipe this was abused), we are posting many posts and threads, many updades, we offer simple solution and result is..
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A possible solution may be
When you buy new mercs they will have low level, green rookie (eg 5) so if you dont waste some time to level up they will be not very useful , so when your mercs is killed then you will have waste some time for level up the new one .
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Let me expand that a bit.
Last wipe, there was a discussion about minigunners overpowering everything because they dealt the highest damage attack with just one click, while small gunners and energy gunners dealt less damage and had to aim.
This wipe, we have merc leaders overpowering everything, but the disbalance this time is so bad it's ridiculous and almost funny. Last wipe, big gunners at least had to point and click. This wipe, merc leaders don't even have to do that - they don't have to do anything. We have a build in the game that is being rewarded for doing nothing. You do nothing to deal the firepower of 5 big gunners.
just saying, this has been the case since... like.... ever since there were mercenaries, so yeah.... don't complain now that people are actually making use of mercs. ::) P.S. we are definitely not working our asses off to provide the ammo, guns, and caps in order to keep enough income to hold on to a squad of mercs capable of Pvp. its all just handed to us. Not only that, but you say merc leaders are rewarded for doing absolutely nothing, but all merc leaders with a brain actually fight alongside their mercs, they dont just sit back and watch, that would be suicide, although what is mostly done is use our superstims to stay alive because chances are we're already dead since everyone always aims for the merc leaders first :D.
Does the Alt key menu remain in place if the target moves? If so, then attacking with a merc leader will be the same as attacking with a build that has to aim. The interface is there and it should be utilized.
no, thing is, its not the same, its hard to explain, I suggest actually trying a merc build yourself instead of just complaining.
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We are getting sidetracked, so let me tell you what my suggestion is again. My suggestion is that merc leaders should have to aim (click on their target to attack it) just like everyone else.
If I wrote an autoshoot program that made my char automatically shoot everyone that entered the encounter, people would start yelling about cheating and unfair advantage. I don't see why someone who can deal single big gunner damage should not have that advantage, but someone who can deal 5 big gunners' damage should. If anything, it should be the opposite.
I value mercs as guards too, so the autoshoot option should be enabled in bases only.
Merc leaders putting points into charisma is supposed to give them the ability to have multiple damage dealing followers, not to give them an aimbot-like advantage.
When I said that merc leaders don't have to do anything, I said that regarding a particular game mechanic. Merc leaders don't have to do anything when it comes to attacking targets. Everyone has to gear up the characters that he shoots with. Having to gear up your followers does not justify merc leaders getting an aimbot-like advantage.
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Hmmm... But there's two things left to discuss: Realism and risk/reward system.
Realism: It doesn't make any sense, that if you have the intention of killing everyone in a particular area or just anyone, that you could not tell your followers to do so as well. :-\
Risk/reward: Merc leaders risk more than ANY other build out there just to participate in general pvp, imagine how the risk/reward ratio would be inbalanced due to such a nerf.
Merc leaders risk over 300k caps worth when using mutie squads (ofc only when buying RL muties, but equipment/amountofammo as well) and somewhere around 30k-50k when using other pvp worthy squads.
besides that, BG mercs are the only real problem, every other follower would be COMPLETELY obselete with this nerf.
A possible solution may be
When you buy new mercs they will have low level, green rookie (eg 5) so if you dont waste some time to level up they will be not very useful , so when your mercs is killed then you will have waste some time for level up the new one .
Why do you think people dont level their mercs up right now? Because its not worth it at all, to grind up a follower, and have him instant killed without any use in some random encounter or by another player ;D. when player dies, he only loses stuff, when merc dies, player loses caps, time, equipment, people will say "Well so do i" But thats not entirely true, because other builds do not use all three of these at once, those builds can buy with caps, saving them time, when a one of you player crafts it, you lose time, but not caps, etc.
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For me it seems like Lordus just wants safe grid camping, that's what you do on the video - swarming the entrance... I don't really think even BG mutants are bad, it's a way to counter grid campers, which is WORSE practice than mercenaries in my opinion . If you want safety don't camp the exit grid, go inside the town a bit. And I agree with Michaelh139, no other build risks that much time and money as merc build, maybe a gauss pistol build (probably that's why I didn't see any).
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Balance should be valued more than realism. Mercs are unbalanced and removing autoshoot will rebalance their risks and rewards.
The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.
If both chars have to aim to attack their targets, the reward/risk ratio is the same for both - they are balanced. Merc leaders risk losing 5 times the items, but that's because they deal 5 times the damage.
If only merc leaders have this additional aimbot-like advantage, they get an additional reward that is not associated with any additional risk. They are unbalanced.
I used big gunners as an example, but you can apply the same to any other build.
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The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.
And the mercenaries grow on trees?
Also it's easier to kill 5 mercenaries than 5 PvP players with good equipment, except one case - when someone ambushes you while you camp on exit grid.
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The reward of using a big gunner is the damage of 1 big gunner that char can deal. The risk of using a big gunner is the items that this 1 big gunner can lose.
The reward of using a merc leader is the damage 5 big gunners can deal. The risk of using a merc leader is the items that these 5 big gunners can lose.
If both chars have to aim to attack their targets, the reward/risk ratio is the same for both - they are balanced. Merc leaders risk losing 5 times the items, but that's because they deal 5 times the damage.
Bull, do you know where mercs come from? Caps spent at towns, and is the biggest caps dump in the game and you cannot get those caps back like you would from trading merchants for your equipment, in fact, muties come from towns that are UNGAURDED, you can get pk'd for 250k caps because as a leader you can't defend yourself from most other builds, plus militia. Just keep that in mind. Besides, you say you only lose equipment on the mercs, well what about the immense amount of caps you you spent to get the mercs in the first place? and the continuos amount of caps you must spend to make up for losses of life? :-\
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Yes, I'm sleepy so I missed that. The price of those mercs should also included in the risks of using a merc leader.
So the price of aimbotting then turns out to be the price of a merc. It would be good if builds other than merc leaders are also given a channel through which they can chose to pay that price and enjoy the same advantage.
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Here is another thought.
When it comes to risks, a big gunner's potential losses are weapons and armor.
When it comes to risks, a merc leader's potential losses are weapons and merc price.
If merc prices were to drop to about half of what they are right now, the reward/risk of both would be balanced without anyone having to aimbot.
Single char builds will be happy because they will not get aimbotted and merc leaders will be happy because they will have cheaper mercs.
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It is an interesting suggestion, but I fear that with the current speed of critter movement it would be very hard to hit the enemy with the merc menu. Maybe making alt+click on critter without the dropdown menue...
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It is an interesting suggestion, but I fear that with the current speed of critter movement it would be very hard to hit the enemy with the merc menu. Maybe making alt+click on critter without the dropdown menue...
maybe mouse middle button?
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I just want to add this before I log out.
Out of the two options I suggested - give aimbot access to all vs. remove aimbot access from all, I prefer the second one.
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maybe mouse middle button?
Maybe, but I believe a better solution would be something like hold button xy on keyboard plus the buttons 1,2,3 etc. to give merc 1,2 or 3 option to do this or that. Ofcourse just a thrown in quick suggestion, as it takes effort of our scripters. :)
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Okay how about this yoz, what happens when you get blinded, cant see anything at all, the mercs sit there and get raped? Funny. I don't mind surf's suggestion about there not being a drop down menu but if your going to gimp mercs so much we should at least get the option to tell them what to aim for. Of course then some non merc leader is going to complain about being blinded by mercs even though percentage wise theres a less chance to get blinded by a group of 5 mercs than a sniper.
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If you get blinded then it is more difficult for you to attack. That is already the case for every other build.
Even if a merc leader gets blinded though, he would only have to see the target to attack it. If any other build gets blinded, he still has to hit the target to attack it. Which one is more difficult to do while blinded?
Merc leaders would suffer smaller penalties of being blinded.
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smaller penalties? few merc builds can take on another player 1v1, and considering the 100+k investment into mercs you being blind shouldnt stop them from being attacking, how is it less of a penalty? Go play a merc build and whenever you get blind make sure to continually click stop all actions on mercs and see how well you do since if you can't see the enemy the mercs shouldnt attack him. right?
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I don't really give a damn about these mutants and the poor players that need to pay so much caps to auto-kill others on the grid. Caps are hard to get if you don't have a TC gang, but if you have then paying half a milion for mercs is nothing.
Anyway... The simple solution is to let mercs auto shoot in a base or tent and in SOME parts of TC towns ( like 30hex away from the exit). For other places the player would need to alt-click (not on a target, anywhere, on himself, on the merc, on the terrain, etc) and select something like 'Kill'em all!' and only then the mercs start shooting at players.
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Problems:
1) immediate teleport to busiest part of every map (entrances)
2) no latency between command to enter city and action
3) inadequate damage: 5 (mutants) x 2 (shots until they die) x 75 (average dmg per one rocket) = cca 750 dmg (+ knockdowns, cripling) on very long range (i.e., in Redding, if enemy is caping right bottom corner, under the sherrif, the place from south to downtown is death zone, because you cannot hide anywhere and they can kill you immediately.. not fiction, it is fact).
4) mutants are cheap and every era there was some bug so huge gangs could buy them without any limitation
5) you can use them from second computer and dont need focus to that char
6) zero prevention agaisnt supermutant leaders waiting over map
7) almost zero defence agaisnt mutants immediately spawned at city entrances, becauce you cannot aim their leader in the group (he is surrounded by mutants and there is not free pixel you can hit)
8) bad defence because even Scope is best you can use, FOCD granted real time switching aiming zones and PvP players in 90 percent resign to clicking to other zone, because if enemy are using FOCD kind of aiming, you dont have time to do nonsense mouse moves across your monitor
If any solution will not solve all those problems, it wont help. Even one supermutant teleported into grup of enemy does serious damage and evades focus, .. and you can always use them four or five from second computers...
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Before any nerfing. I think we should wait till next wipe either way. I heard mentioning where different mercs will take a different amount of follower slots. That will probally be the best solution. Also a short delay on mercs attacking (like 1 second) is enough to simulate players who click on you. If you get killed because a bunch of muties spawn at the entrance of a town. Then you should stop camping there.
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If you get killed because a bunch of muties spawn at the entrance of a town. Then you should stop camping there.
in another topic about merc builds the player wasn't camping. they spawned in town and a merc leader spawned right behind him. they could have been camping the world map or not. you obviously don't have to be camping. you just basically die without a chance for reaction, because the mercs are programmed to insta-shoot. i agree a pause of a second or two would help. it would also fix the bug where the game freezes during loading from being shot when entering a location.
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To sum it up...
Balance the access to aimbotting by removing it for everyone.
Compensate merc leaders according to this http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=12086.msg99603#msg99603 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=12086.msg99603#msg99603)
Implement an "attack whoever I attack" option, which will make mercs attack whoever the leader clicks on with the "A" cursor.
Enable autoshooting in bases only for guarding purposes.
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Yoz what's the difference between mercs autoshooting and a player with super fast reflexes and aim?
Honestly one big problem is that the mercs almost always hit. We got accuracy modifiers but because of imba high skill% (even mercs) the chance is often 95%.
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Yoz what's the difference between mercs autoshooting and a player with super fast reflexes and aim?
Bigger than you seem to think...
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1MERC per ALT, no more !!!
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Hmm.. i think that autoshoot option could only work in Bases/tents while they guard.
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Mercs sucks, i vote to remove them from FOnline.
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I like that the fact that you have to plan mutie spawns into your tactic, it renders certain positions and routes near exit grids unusable and thus you have to rethink sometimes.
However, the issues I see with that, is that bigger gangs dont need to care about the caps due to interest, which renders michaels argumentation pretty pointless. I don't want to argue how much work it may or may not be to set up mercs, point being it is out of proportion.
If we want to leave the mercs as they are right now, we need countermeasures. My idea would be to give the gatling laser a little boost to work as an anti mutie gun. If the gatling laser does a lot more damage to muties, but a little less damage to normal armor in comparison to the avenger, it would justify the use of maybe 2 or 3 of them to effectively countering mutie spawns while still being able to assist the avengers.
To make that effective, I'd support the 1 second delay for muties. It is in fact too short to be able to run away, but enough time for counter-mercs to shoot at them. It should be possible to find a decent value there through testing.
Another point is the cost of muties. If the enemy can spawn tens of muties, it doesn't matter if you manage to kill 2 or 3 of them. To balance the caps, you could link the merc prize to the number of mercs already puchased by that player with a factor of 2 or 3 each time.
A better way would be to fix the interest system by making interest a decaying value. And while we're at it, we should also prevent people just making loads of different accounts to keep interest for each one of them high. Might need some game master control or searching of logs if that's the only way available but the idea generally is, to make muties worth protecting and not relatively disposable as they are now.
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Mercs sucks, i vote to remove them from FOnline.
section 8 sig, doesnt want mercs
wut?
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Everybody uses it, so we too. But it dont mean we want to :P
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or maybe you have spent all the money that rogues gave you?:->
anyways, mercenaries are cool. imo this option should be just fixed and developed NOT DISABLED!
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Rogues arent with us, so no idea why they should give us money.