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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Sarakin on November 05, 2010, 06:09:13 pm
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As we can see, there are many bluesuits around even when staff is easily obtained due to "limited" economy this season. Most of the bluesuits can afford some armor, but they have no reason to do that when they are somewhat safe in a city. This even encourages stealing when you have really nothing to lose. I expect raging from thieves and newbies, but wasteland is ha.. no no , this suggestion is aimed to make fonline better game, not to frustrate you more.
So the basic idea is to divide merchants by armor required to trade with them. It is quite logical to assume this, if I am well-known merchant with quality stuff, I wouldn't bother dealing with someone poor, judging just by his appearance. Of course, most of the merchants are mostly interested in your caps, but time is money so they would surely prefer someone good-looking in a new combat armor. Thus, there should be 4 categories:
-No-class merchants from poor areas, requiring no armor, such as: Klamath, Modoc, every bar merchant
-C-class merchants requiring leather jacket+ in areas: Den, Gecko, NCR, Necropolis, Broken Hills, Redding, Boneyard
-B-class merchants requiring leather armor+ in areas: Hub, Vault City, Redding, New Reno, San Francisco
-A-class merchants representing rich merchants requiring metal armor+ in areas: Jacob(Hub), Gunrunners(Fortress)
Cities are divided into each category as an example, we can discuss which city should belong to which category. It's just stupid to see bluesuit at gunrunners with inventory full of miniguns, rockets etc.
Then we have thieves that have some place in fonline, but nowadays, they are rather bothering meanies than real skilled pickpockets. They have nothing to lose, just time, so I propose they should wear at least leather jacket in order to blend in with the crowd. With no armor, there should be penalty to steal, maybe -100% or less. I'm sure that it might help them as well, because now I'm considering every bluesuit in town as a possible threat due to the fact mentioned above, so I keep my eyes open. With an armor, they can be more successful and they should plan their victims, not just steal from every player they see.
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So, you just want to make the game easier?
Basically, it will be quickly known who's a thief and who isn't, that shouldn't happen.
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Not easier, where did you get that :}. I just want to encourage people to wear armor
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Just increase CH requirement to trade with special NCPs, and wearing armors will give floating bonus to CH check when you're trying to talk to trader. So if you're charismatic, you can use less valuable armor. And make 1 CH characters in expensive armor be able to trade with them ;p
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Well that would help players with low charisma (making charisma even more worthless), but it wouldnt solve BS problem
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problem
There isn't one, remove that figment of your imagination and move on.
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This reminds me of a three piece suit from Fo3 which when worn increased barter skill. ::) Because people on wasteland when humanity is almost destroyed would care about someone's looks when trading. 3ch requirement is kinda ridiculous already but this? Even more sick. If I trade with someone the thing that's most importnat is what he has to offer, not how he looks. If i need for example some rare computer chip and it was found by accident by some hobo in the wastes I refue to trade him just because he stinks or has no armor?
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So instead of losing crap to thieves (as long as people come to city with important stuff in hands), we lose armor to suicide bombers, shop shooters, people with idolized reps, etc. As someone else said already, having a base cha to speak to someone is already kind of stupid for the wasteland. As a merchant (someone who is looking to make a profit), I don't care who I sell to (whether they are good looking or not). The only factor that affects this should be if he is an asshole raider (thats saying if I am in a civilized part of town).
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This reminds me of a three piece suit from Fo3 which when worn increased barter skill. ::) Because people on wasteland when humanity is almost destroyed would care about someone's looks when trading. 3ch requirement is kinda ridiculous already but this? Even more sick. If I trade with someone the thing that's most importnat is what he has to offer, not how he looks. If i need for example some rare computer chip and it was found by accident by some hobo in the wastes I refue to trade him just because he stinks or has no armor?
PA/APA add Strenght for a good reason. Leather Jacket could add charisma too (its already there on TLA). We are not talking about lab coat which increase science, because THIS is dumb...
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Because people on wasteland when humanity is almost destroyed would care about someone's looks when trading. 3ch requirement is kinda ridiculous already but this? Even more sick. If I trade with someone the thing that's most importnat is what he has to offer, not how he looks. If i need for example some rare computer chip and it was found by accident by some hobo in the wastes I refue to trade him just because he stinks or has no armor?
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True that.
Maybe merchants don't want to trade with 1CH chars, coz they look worse than ghouls? ;P
But anyway, merchants want to earn money, so it doesn't matter for them if you wear robes or tuxedo. Merchant doesn't loose anything by trading with some junky. He can even earn more, coz junkies are desperate... So this idea is not so good, like others said
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Huys there were a nuclear apocalypse right... But people have assault rifles, have towns, have money, are rebuilding governement and society. Bombing was not yesterday. So yeah, appearance matter. Look at NCR. It's big, civilized. A dirty man in bluesuit certainly won't be able to talk with majors traders of the town.
Also, yeah, seeing everyone in bluesuit, with nothing to loose but time, is annoying.
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There isn't one, remove that figment of your imagination and move on.
Very thoughtful post, thanks
This reminds me of a three piece suit from Fo3 which when worn increased barter skill. ::) Because people on wasteland when humanity is almost destroyed would care about someone's looks when trading. 3ch requirement is kinda ridiculous already but this? Even more sick. If I trade with someone the thing that's most importnat is what he has to offer, not how he looks. If i need for example some rare computer chip and it was found by accident by some hobo in the wastes I refue to trade him just because he stinks or has no armor?
I agree that charisma requirements are stupid, but you can at least affect this by wearing 250-2k caps worth armor, is that so hard ?
Anyway I dont agree that (first) impression isnt important. I would really like to see in RL that you come to highly organized gunrunners with no reputation whatsoever, demanding trading with them.
So instead of losing crap to thieves (as long as people come to city with important stuff in hands), we lose armor to suicide bombers, shop shooters, people with idolized reps, etc. As someone else said already, having a base cha to speak to someone is already kind of stupid for the wasteland. As a merchant (someone who is looking to make a profit), I don't care who I sell to (whether they are good looking or not). The only factor that affects this should be if he is an asshole raider (thats saying if I am in a civilized part of town).
Ive set rules also for thieves. If you evade NCR, the mother of all sewers, you wouldnt have any problems with suicide bombers or people with idolized reps. And believe me, armor should be the least of your worries if youre intending to trade with respected merchant.
Every post seems to carry the same idea, that I reasonable explained (at least I tried to). So try to stick to new ones ;)
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Huys there were a nuclear apocalypse right... But people have assault rifles, have towns, have money, are rebuilding governement and society. Bombing was not yesterday. So yeah, appearance matter. Look at NCR. It's big, civilized. A dirty man in bluesuit certainly won't be able to talk with majors traders of the town.
Also, yeah, seeing everyone in bluesuit, with nothing to loose but time, is annoying.
Really? How about today? I don't see homeless people doing shopping as long as they have money.
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Really? How about today? I don't see homeless people doing shopping as long as they have money.
If he looks neglected, he surely wont be allowed to enter some expensive boutique. If he got money, he would surely spend it on something else, like getting proper clothers (armor), perhaps ? So he would be allowed to shop...
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Lol :D. Ridiculous arguments. Don't force your funny suggestion just for the sake of it. Instead suggest something that's useful in some way.
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Shop shooting, hidden snipers, idilized reps, AKA EXPLOITS, happen everywhere. you know duh wasteland his harsh lulz kiddies.
Your really going to think merchants are going to have some kind of MACYS or SACHS FIFTH AVENUE mentality in the wastes? Well maybe of they sell frilly dresses or tuxedoes and shit.
You think battle hardened combat vets who want to offload a shitload of guns are going to care what thier buyers wear? Have you ever been to a gun show? The only time I see armor as being necessary is by player choice because he is going to conduct trades with someone whom he doesn't know or trust.
Seriously, we need less, not more regulations in regards to talking with npcs. Second, as the devs are already going to change, crafting and other things like trade are going to be seperate from combat (SPECIAL).
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You must be playing somewhere else probably, because Im not having problems with these exploits - perhaps you should move from NCR. Theres is nothing else besides ARMORS, no garments or clothes, so people walk in bluesuit and they are worried more with losing their armor than losing their life.
You cant compare todays environment of gun suppliers to post-apo environment. I believe in post-apo scenario, selling/buying weapons/ammo would be something more common to see and these people would be considered as merchants, not as gun suppliers. So all in all, you would need to look worthy to them in order to EVEN contact them - not to mention trading.
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I dont agree about the classes. I think it would be better to just make Bluesuit -5 charisma when level is higher then... 5? The problem i see not leather jacket vs metal armor but, bluesuit on its own. Against thiefs, well, a blue suit is not good camuflage so make it as a no good camuflage, penalty: Easier spotted by guards when stealing.
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I and others have been killed in the hub before. I survived a shopshoot attempt at San Fran though some others have been less fortunate. This kind of thing happens everywhere not just in NCR.
What you are talking about is more about black market than actual merchants even though the "black market" has merchants. However, I would think something like this would not be armor dependent so much as speech/charisma and quest dependent. Accessing black market goods usually requires someone being brought in.
Your average merchants could really care less what ya looked like. I think the creation of a black market though would just over complicate things.
Thieves are going to steal with or without armor so nothing is going to change except force everyone else to bring losable goods. Plus "blending" in is something that works in real life, not in a game where thieves walk up to you, do FA test, thieve, then run away. No amount of blending in is going to make people not notice that.
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Thieves are going to steal with or without armor so nothing is going to change except force everyone else to bring losable goods. Plus "blending" in is something that works in real life, not in a game where thieves walk up to you, do FA test, thieve, then run away. No amount of blending in is going to make people not notice that.
What i blieve is the biggest unbalance with thiefs (as acually it is not a problem but a feature) is that even if you reveal them and kill them, then just come back same naked as before and continue to try to steal from you (2 min later?). Would they come back if they had armor on them? probobly, and if they die they would give back some stuff not only take. Well, the thing is, both sides must risk, the thief and the victim, if thief has nothing to loose only to gain, then we have unblanace.
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Or thief could just steal caps, weapons, armor, ammo etc, drop off tent outside city, comeback and risk lame armor. If everyone had to wear armor in city then bomb or pk is a potential treasure trove of loot just waiting for those who camp long enough to see it happen.
No matter how you slice it, forcing people to bring stuff to the city is not cool especially due to the ability to exploit game mechanics. People already risk their wares by coming into the city, don't compountd the risk by making them bring armor too.
PS: Just because they die doesn't mean your gonna get the stuff back. All the campers easily can pick the stuff up so again, lose lose situation for armor=more speech.
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For me, its mostly to get rid of bluesuits, not to make people loose stuff, becouse leather jacket i think should be like basic thing. About thiefs again, well, they would have to craft or buy leather jacket (becouse they would die now and then), they would at LEAST have to do something to be able to steal.
Maybe even some other things i dont know, maybe they could use some new items especially for thiefs, like their face manipulation so they dont get recognized and have easier to come back by changing their looks (which would be something they have to craft or buy), maybe some thief gloves (??). Or maybe some poison extract they put on their victims to reduce their victims ability to spot the theif, heh i dont know. Some a bit crazy ideas, but my point beign in making them put something into their proffesion to get something back, not to improve them for sure.
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Whats wrong with bluesuiting? If anything it shows how stupid full loot drop is for a guarded city. For example in guarded cities, full loot drop is turned off. Its not all that hard to implement and an instant way to make suicide bombing/shopshooting bearable. Hell, without the possibility to gain items through a cheap exploit, people might move to pk towns to steal stuff. Bluesuits will be gone and people will be able to show off their cool gunz and armorz.
Yes people want to rob folks of their belonging because duh wastelanz iz harsh. But thats no excuse to ruin peoples ability to trade with merchants. I mean seriously stopping trade just because somebody comes near you EVERYTIME? Like dealing with the sea of useless junk that isn't cleared from merchant inventory isn't bad enough?
As long as the devs allow thieving this annoynace is going to continue. Any attempt to nerf or otherwise make thieving more difficult is going to be made out like the devs are "restricting" a certain playstyle. Further complicating the barter process helps no-one.
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Thieving is part of the game, accept it.
It has is pros and cons just like any other build.
The only things about thieving that needs to be changed is the animation and a 2nd steal time out of 3-5 minutes to prevent harassing the same victim over and over.
Thieving is nerved enough already.
Bartering needs to be changed back to 2 people per merchant.
Broken weapons and armor and radios with the same frequency should be stackable.
The wasteland isn't save, not even in guarded cities.
I fail to see the reason why suicide bombing and shopshooting should be allowed, but made "bearable" by not having full loot drop, but thieving shouldn't be allowed.
Nice to encounter a merchant with caps, than get killed by a shopshooter. You come back and find the caps are gone.
Demotivating players to come to NCR or any other guarded town isn't a solution.
Motivate people to go to unguarded towns as well.
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What i blieve is the biggest unbalance with thiefs (as acually it is not a problem but a feature) is that even if you reveal them and kill them, then just come back same naked as before and continue to try to steal from you (2 min later?).
Actually I believe that is a present bug, not a designed feature. Just saying.
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Actually I believe that is a present bug, not a designed feature. Just saying.
bwut...? Present "bug"? What part of that isn't a desgn flaw?
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Noticing this some time ago, I asked, and as I understand the answer: the thieves are meant to be shootable continually after they are flagged for stealing, at least Beyond their first death there in that location. The fact they are protected by the guards after they respawn is the bug I am referring to, and what KTT referred to as a 'feature,' and I wanted to make it clear that it is not to my knowledge.
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I am not saying shoplooting/suicide bombing should be allowed. However, since it will always be exploitable, the best alternative is to eliminate full loot drop from guarded cities (seriously what other point is full loot drop going to serve in a city where your SUPPOSED to be protected in).
Every other solution seems to require more/additional things to need to be implemented. If the devs are working for free and are busy enough with 3d and the like, then I would suggest offering the easiest fix which is to eliminate the benefits for killing people in guarded cities besides the lulz (cause again people will always find a way to exploit).
So what do you suggest Hertog if not to encourage pker or "raiders" to go raid other of their kind or advernturous waselanders? The whole point of a guarded city is for SECURITY. Full loot drop turned off offers precisely that. You can still die of course but the other alternative is to eliminate offensive actions all together in guarded cities.
PS: Thieving itself could be re-balanced somehow but only if it doesn't hinder other things like a person ability to buy or sell from a vendor. Taking advantage of someone while they are trading really sucks and makes merchants all but useless. Even more so if there is more than one or two thieves in the area.
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So what do you suggest Hertog if not to encourage pker or "raiders" to go raid other of their kind or advernturous waselanders? The whole point of a guarded city is for SECURITY. Full loot drop turned off offers precisely that. You can still die of course but the other alternative is to eliminate offensive actions all together in guarded cities.
PS: Thieving itself could be re-balanced somehow but only if it doesn't hinder other things like a person ability to buy or sell from a vendor. Taking advantage of someone while they are trading really sucks and makes merchants all but useless. Even more so if there is more than one or two thieves in the area.
Security in guarded cities is for the town and it's citizens, visitors are welcome, but keeping them save is not the guards' number 1 priority.
Thieving is fine the way it works, it's already hard. If you had a thief alt you would know. Most people are paranoid around traders, especially in the guarded cities. People getting stolen from, should pay more attention as it's easy to prevent.
Due to the 1 person per trader situation this era, people push other people away or try to scare them of by using steal which of course works 2 ways ...
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By that logic then why bother having guards? Protecting NPCs is useless unless they serve a purpose IE buying and selling to players or giving quests.
The whole point of having guards is to keep CS or Rogues or from running in and killing/robbing everyone blind AKA protection for EVERYONE.
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By that logic then why bother having guards? Protecting NPCs is useless unless they serve a purpose IE buying and selling to players or giving quests.
The whole point of having guards is to keep CS or Rogues or from running in and killing/robbing everyone blind AKA protection for EVERYONE.
Killing/robbing bluesuits it our work ;) We are PK so what else we can do? Best way is walking into north towns with ARMED friends which they can support you ;)
And also if guard will be deleted so there will be some group of players who can protect town, look for example on TLA and Klamath project...
Even on TLA there are some PK groups so? Cities are safe (but not 24 per hour) because of Anti PK factions, so do this same and don't wrote about how PK are bad and they need to be nerfed...
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@janosk
I don't think I quite follow you on your post.
But, as I said, the whole reason that a city has guards is to keep EVERYONE safe. I mean whats the point of protecting NPCs when the folks who use them get gunned down for thier loot?
People want to get rid of shopshooting/suicide bombing but all the suggestions onl cause more balancing issues. The elimination of full loot drop in guarded cities (again its guarded so people can't rob folks blind), would get rid of bluesuits instantly. Folks wouldn't worry about losing thier shit so they wouldn't mind bringing shit into the city.
But I have a feeling this isn't really about bluesuits. I think its another player trap suggestion so more shit can be stolen from people in the cities. Again, people bringing their shit to merchants to sell is tough enough with thieves and exploits but having to bring cooldown consuming armor as well as a requirement for selling their shit??
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I like the Sarakins idea.
Look at current trading/barter system. If you need stuff, you have to go to exact squares on world map, set up tent there and loot stuff from dead members of hostile factions. Then you visit traders, sell all laser rifles, miniguns even with absolutely bad exchange ratio, because you have no duty to care about it, source of this stuff is infinite, only real value you have to spend is time. The only barrier between you and combat armor offered by NPC traders is that somebody else was there before you and he exchanged it first.
I would like to see maybe more advanced mechanism.
I like trading, as a player, you have to detect NPC specialization. You can exchange stuff by best ratio, buy stuff with universal value and resell it where you need, if you dont want to loose value. You have to avoid contact with PK, in hard core areas (like Fortress), you have to create tent network for secure parking place for your car,... . The knowledge about this mechanisms is part of player-trader roleplay evolution.
But i miss trading evolution of your character. Of course, that better barter skill provides you more time for trading, quite better prices, but thats all.
Why not implement Sarakins idea? Maybe even add Combat armors as a requirement, if you want to trade with best barter-armorer. It is logical, who cares about nobody, zero in bluesuit. You as a customer needs to proove that you have serious interest to buy that best stuff.
Also, limitation of access to some traders, like Vault City membership is good idea and it should be expanded. There could exist similar limitation in different places. The idea is that your trader char, if you want to roleplay trader, will have to expand the source of possible NPC traders.
a) membership to some faction (VC, Raiders, Brotherhood, Enclave)
Like now, i like the idea that you could not have open doors to all NPC traders.
b) reputation - minimal requirement reputation for some traders (so PK chars could forget about kill and loot their victim and sell/exchange that loot to local merchant)
Better reputation in that locality you have, acces to highest tier weapons/armors you get. :)
c) cloth - we have saying in our language: "Je to pravda odveka, ze saty delaji cloveka" - free translation: "this is true, ancient, that clothes makes the man"
ca) "Sarakin's idea"
cb) Robe as prerequisity for special Apocalypse follower (or other religious organization..). I dont mean basic robe, but some special, limited edition :), maybe with limited numbers in the game, or acquired by same way like gauss pistol or car engine part (plus fulfulling other conditions: ammout of trades, level 21, ...). So you will have to be patient before you get this and it will be kind of reward you will get if you get acces to this robe.
Of course, this will attract PKillers, but if acces to merchants via robe will "only" expand your spectre of NPC with PvP stuff, players who dont need to trade this stuff will be more secure. It will attract attention of PKillers, but it means, that their attention would be focused more on this, not on the other, basic traders (theoreticaly).
d) traveling merchants on world map
Merchant parties with stuff that is insuficient in town based NPC barters (because players bought the best stuff). Less stuff in town, more in traveling merchants. As a player, you will have to discover their traveling patches, time of traveling, existance of stuff and this mechanism. You can limit this encounters by setting limitation per real hour for this meeting to avoiding exploits. Also if you will spend running on world map with valuable stuff to trade, the potencial of hostile random encouter and death by NPC is bigger.
f) quest based (but i know that adding new quest take a lot of work)
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The reputation idea has promise but its no doubt going to anger the "this is the wasteland i can do whatever I want" crowd. Its a much better idea than using armor as a pre-requisite to trading however.
Whether its armor or money or goods its all the same damned thing. If you have something someone wants and they have something you want you trade. Clothes make the man because it shows how much monez he supposedly has (not relistic since a lot of folks can pretend to be rich).
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The reputation idea has promise but its no doubt going to anger the "this is the wasteland i can do whatever I want" crowd. Its a much better idea than using armor as a pre-requisite to trading however.
Rep would be much more credible. It's just how rep is supposed to be received.
The thing with armors is that a dude wearing CA could be just some grunt who simply happens to be wearing some top notch gear.
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Perfect example is a big gunner tank.
I mean the guys got a LSW, BA and loads of 223.
Too bad hes either too stupid or too ugly to trade with. He probably has scars that would make a regular person cringe. Most folks would think hes a bloodthirsty mercenary that can't be trusted.
Judging people on looks alone gets nobody anywhere.
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Judging people on looks alone gets nobody anywhere.
Sadly, most people judge others on how they look, not what do they know. Thats how it works nowadays
Anyway, Im happy that this discussion continues, were here to make better game, not to argue with people but about their ideas. I tried it keep as simple as possible, so it can be implemented with no big changes. Personally, I think Lordus' idea is even better.
If it was up to me, Id change trade/thief system completely.
On the side note, I had a thief and I know how its easy and profitable to steal. The only think hard about steal is levelling them (alone with steal). So dont tell me, that its balanced. Im looking forward to fixing that bug which gatling stated.
Lastly, I cant fix exploits, its not my job, I assumed no exploits - even with them, Im wearing armors with my trader all the time and had no problems with exploiters.
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Allowing a 1 CH character to trade if he's wearing metal armor i wouldn't mind.. but really all making people wear armor to trade their goods is not going to fix the bluesuit mobs. since people who trade don't stand around really. they get in. do their thing. and than leave. its everyone else standing around being stupid that you see in bluesuits.
As for why people cant trade with too low of a CH score... well who's to say they don't smell like cow crap and look worse? perfectly nice black people have been shunned just for being black, picture a ugly misfit that looks like one of those swampfolk guys from fallout 3: Point Lookout... and than see how long you want to stand talking to him... mix that with low INT and you've got a orc with a machine gun...
Cheers folks.
-Ulrek-
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But, as I said, the whole reason that a city has guards is to keep EVERYONE safe. I mean whats the point of protecting NPCs when the folks who use them get gunned down for thier loot?
The sole reason NCR has guards is to keep the city and it's citizens protected.
Similar to VC.
We are visitors in NCR, not citizens.
The fact that we can easily kill an npc citizen doesn't change that fact.
That they protect visitors who don't cause problems is done to secure the peace.
After all, it's an RPG somewhere somehow.
As for thieves, guards should shoot thieves who are caught stealing and take everything they have on them.
A thief character isn't hard to level as long as you don't solely depend on your steal skill.