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[Keldorn]

Shop shooting, hidden snipers, idilized reps, AKA EXPLOITS, happen everywhere.  you know duh wasteland his harsh lulz kiddies.

Your really going to think merchants are going to have some kind of MACYS or SACHS FIFTH AVENUE mentality in the wastes?  Well maybe of they sell frilly dresses or tuxedoes and shit.

You think battle hardened combat vets who want to offload a shitload of guns are going to care what thier buyers wear?  Have you ever been to a gun show?  The only time I see armor as being necessary is by player choice because he is going to conduct trades with someone whom he doesn't know or trust.

Seriously, we need less, not more regulations in regards to talking with npcs.  Second, as the devs are already going to change, crafting and other things like trade are going to be seperate from combat (SPECIAL).

[Sarakin]

You must be playing somewhere else probably, because Im not having problems with these exploits - perhaps you should move from NCR. Theres is nothing else besides ARMORS, no garments or clothes, so people walk in bluesuit and they are worried more with losing their armor than losing their life.
You cant compare todays environment of gun suppliers to post-apo environment. I believe in post-apo scenario, selling/buying weapons/ammo would be something more common to see and these people would be considered as merchants, not as gun suppliers. So all in all, you would need to look worthy to them in order to EVEN contact them - not to mention trading.

[kttdestroyer]

I dont agree about the classes. I think it would be better to just make Bluesuit -5 charisma when level is higher then... 5? The problem i see not leather jacket vs metal armor but, bluesuit on its own. Against thiefs, well, a blue suit is not good camuflage so make it as a no good camuflage, penalty: Easier spotted by guards when stealing.

[Keldorn]

I and others have been killed in the hub before.   I survived a shopshoot attempt at San Fran though some others have been less fortunate.  This kind of thing happens everywhere not just in NCR.

What you are talking about is more about black market than actual merchants even though the "black market" has merchants.  However, I would think something like this would not be armor dependent so much as speech/charisma and quest dependent.  Accessing black market goods usually requires someone being brought in. 

Your average merchants could really care less what ya looked like.  I think the creation of a black market though would just over complicate things.

Thieves are going to steal with or without armor so nothing is going to change except force everyone else to bring losable goods.  Plus "blending" in is something that works in real life, not in a game where thieves walk up to you, do FA test, thieve, then run away.  No amount of blending in is going to make people not notice that.

[kttdestroyer]

Thieves are going to steal with or without armor so nothing is going to change except force everyone else to bring losable goods.  Plus "blending" in is something that works in real life, not in a game where thieves walk up to you, do FA test, thieve, then run away.  No amount of blending in is going to make people not notice that.

What i blieve is the biggest unbalance with thiefs (as acually it is not a problem but a feature) is that even if you reveal them and kill them, then just come back same naked as before and continue to try to steal from you (2 min later?). Would they come back if they had armor on them? probobly, and if they die they would give back some stuff not only take. Well, the thing is, both sides must risk, the thief and the victim, if thief has nothing to loose only to gain, then we have unblanace.

[Keldorn]

Or thief could just steal caps, weapons, armor, ammo etc, drop off tent outside city, comeback and risk lame armor.  If everyone had to wear armor in city then bomb or pk is a potential treasure trove of loot just waiting for those who camp long enough to see it happen.

No matter how you slice it, forcing people to bring stuff to the city is not cool especially due to the ability to exploit game mechanics.  People already risk their wares by coming into the city, don't compountd the risk by making them bring armor too.

PS:  Just because they die doesn't mean your gonna get the stuff back.  All the campers easily can pick the stuff up so again, lose lose situation for armor=more speech.

[kttdestroyer]

For me, its mostly to get rid of bluesuits, not to make people loose stuff, becouse leather jacket i think should be like basic thing. About thiefs again, well, they would have to craft or buy leather jacket (becouse they would die now and then), they would at LEAST have to do something to be able to steal.

Maybe even some other things i dont know, maybe they could use some new items especially for thiefs, like their face manipulation so they dont get recognized and have easier to come back by changing their looks (which would be something they have to craft or buy), maybe some thief gloves (??). Or maybe some poison extract they put on their victims to reduce their victims ability to spot the theif, heh i dont know. Some a bit crazy ideas, but my point beign in making them put something into their proffesion to get something back, not to improve them for sure.

[Keldorn]

Whats wrong with bluesuiting?   If anything it shows how stupid full loot drop is for a guarded city.   For example in guarded cities, full loot drop is turned off.  Its not all that hard to implement and an instant way to make suicide bombing/shopshooting bearable.  Hell, without the possibility to gain items through a cheap exploit, people might move to pk towns to steal stuff.  Bluesuits will be gone and people will be able to show off their cool gunz and armorz.

Yes people want to rob folks of their belonging because duh wastelanz iz harsh.  But thats no excuse to ruin peoples ability to trade with merchants.  I mean seriously stopping trade just because somebody comes near you EVERYTIME?  Like dealing with the sea of useless junk that isn't cleared from merchant inventory isn't bad enough?

As long as the devs allow thieving this annoynace is going to continue.  Any attempt to nerf  or otherwise make thieving more difficult is going to be made out like the devs are "restricting" a certain playstyle.  Further complicating the barter process helps no-one.

[HertogJan]

Thieving is part of the game, accept it.
It has is pros and cons just like any other build.
The only things about thieving that needs to be changed is the animation and a 2nd steal time out of 3-5 minutes to prevent harassing the same victim over and over.
Thieving is nerved enough already.

Bartering needs to be changed back to 2 people per merchant.
Broken weapons and armor and radios with the same frequency should be stackable.

The wasteland isn't save, not even in guarded cities.
I fail to see the reason why suicide bombing and shopshooting should be allowed, but made "bearable" by not having full loot drop, but thieving shouldn't be allowed.
Nice to encounter a merchant with caps, than get killed by a shopshooter. You come back and find the caps are gone.

Demotivating players to come to NCR or any other guarded town isn't a solution.
Motivate people to go to unguarded towns as well.

[Gatling]

What i blieve is the biggest unbalance with thiefs (as acually it is not a problem but a feature) is that even if you reveal them and kill them, then just come back same naked as before and continue to try to steal from you (2 min later?).

Actually I believe that is a present bug, not a designed feature.  Just saying.

[Michaelh139]

Actually I believe that is a present bug, not a designed feature.  Just saying.

bwut...?  Present "bug"?  What part of that isn't a desgn flaw?

[Gatling]

Noticing this some time ago, I asked, and as I understand the answer: the thieves are meant to be shootable continually after they are flagged for stealing, at least Beyond their first death there in that location.  The fact they are protected by the guards after they respawn is the bug I am referring to, and what KTT referred to as a 'feature,' and I wanted to make it clear that it is not to my knowledge. 

[Keldorn]

I am not saying shoplooting/suicide bombing should be allowed.  However, since it will always be exploitable, the best alternative is to eliminate full loot drop from guarded cities (seriously what other point is full loot drop going to serve in a city where your SUPPOSED to be protected in).

Every other solution seems to require more/additional things to need to be implemented.  If the devs are working for free and are busy enough with 3d and the like, then I would suggest offering the easiest fix which is to eliminate the benefits for killing people in guarded cities besides the lulz (cause again people will always find a way to exploit).

So what do you suggest Hertog if not to encourage pker or "raiders" to go raid other of their kind or advernturous waselanders?  The whole point of a guarded city is for SECURITY.  Full loot drop turned off offers precisely that.  You can still die of course but the other alternative is to eliminate offensive actions all together in guarded cities.

PS:  Thieving itself could be re-balanced somehow but only if it doesn't hinder other things like a person ability to buy or sell from a vendor.  Taking advantage of someone while they are trading really sucks and makes merchants all but useless.  Even more so if there is more than one or two thieves in the area.

[HertogJan]

So what do you suggest Hertog if not to encourage pker or "raiders" to go raid other of their kind or advernturous waselanders?  The whole point of a guarded city is for SECURITY.  Full loot drop turned off offers precisely that.  You can still die of course but the other alternative is to eliminate offensive actions all together in guarded cities.

PS:  Thieving itself could be re-balanced somehow but only if it doesn't hinder other things like a person ability to buy or sell from a vendor.  Taking advantage of someone while they are trading really sucks and makes merchants all but useless.  Even more so if there is more than one or two thieves in the area.

Security in guarded cities is for the town and it's citizens, visitors are welcome, but keeping them save is not the guards' number 1 priority.

Thieving is fine the way it works, it's already hard. If  you had a thief alt you would know. Most people are paranoid around traders, especially in the guarded cities. People getting stolen from, should pay more attention as it's easy to prevent.
Due to the 1 person per trader situation this era, people push other people away or try to scare them of by using steal which of course works 2 ways ...

[Keldorn]

By that logic then why bother having guards?  Protecting NPCs is useless unless they serve a purpose IE buying and selling to players or giving quests.

The whole point of having guards is to keep CS or Rogues or  from running in and killing/robbing everyone blind AKA protection for EVERYONE.