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[John Ryder]

What if this build was made by someone else? Anyone can just copy each other's builds and that's whats going all the time.

Oh, oh but what if someone does what someone else told him? He does the same tactics, shoots at the same time? Anyone can just copy each other's tactics and moves.

Skill shows in a simplistic form how trained you are. So get over it and stop forcing this funny suggestion in your every post.

[Crazy]

Nah, we just should all begin at lvl 21, with exact same build, amount of HP, skills, perks and stuff to be sure only the true skill decide who win!
Seriously...

[Wichura]

Nah, we just should all begin at lvl 21, with exact same build, amount of HP, skills, perks and stuff to be sure only the true skill decide who win!

Exists already.

[avv]

Oh, oh but what if someone does what someone else told him? He does the same tactics, shoots at the same time? Anyone can just copy each other's tactics and moves.

Skill shows in a simplistic form how trained you are. So get over it and stop forcing this funny suggestion in your every post.

Can you copy reflexes, aiming or micromanagement? I don't think so. But they for sure are skill. So if build can be copied then how can it be skill? Copying a build is the same thing if you quoted something smart said by someone else and pretended you came up with it.
You can never copy situational adapting. Gaming skill is basically reacting to what's going on in the screen.

I'm not even suggesting anything. I'm questioning the current pvp settings. If you're so certain they are fine in terms of balanced gameplay, you should be able to prove it. So far you got nothing.

Nah, we just should all begin at lvl 21, with exact same build, amount of HP, skills, perks and stuff to be sure only the true skill decide who win!
Seriously...

Isn't this what's going on in powerbuild pvp? Why couldn't it apply to all fighting?

[Crazy]

Obtaining stuff is part of the skill here. Like on quake FFA for example. And basic strategies can be copied in starcraft, they are actually.

But stop to endless discussion.
You just don't want to play the same game as me. It's just like you can't hear and/or understand me, and I certainly don't understand you.

[avv]

Obtaining stuff is part of the skill here. Like on quake FFA for example. And basic strategies can be copied in starcraft, they are actually.

Obtaining stuff in fonline equals grinding which equals time, not skill. In quake FFA you for sure won't be allowed to gather weapons and armor for hours and hours and then go to fight.
In fonline to get items you only require certain ammount of knowledge about what to do and then you just repeat it over and over again. In quake FFA you constantly fight an enemy who is after the same health, armor and weapons. Admittedly it is might be rather repetitive to race around the same maps but at least it has high skill ceiling due to advanced movement.
Even if certain patterns are copied in starcfat, the winner is eventually who manages to apply the strategies in most suitable moment. 

You just don't want to play the same game as me. It's just like you can't hear and/or understand me, and I certainly don't understand you.

Excuse me but questioning and discussing is what beta testing is also about. If devs just had declared that the game is finished and nothing needs changing, I wouldn't be here discussing pvp with you. If devs had declared that pvp is supposed to be what it is now, then I'd shut up too.

I understand you, I guess. You probably think that build-based pvp is okay for whatever reason and I'm against it. So if there's something unclear just say it and I'll try to explain.

[Crazy]

I understand you, I guess. You probably think that build-based pvp is okay for whatever reason and I'm against it. So if there's something unclear just say it and I'll try to explain.

Well, it's much I think, that yes, build should be a part of PvP, tough i don't think it make it "build based", even if it's important.

[Balthasar]

Nah, we just should all begin at lvl 21, with exact same build, amount of HP, skills, perks and stuff to be sure only the true skill decide who win!
Seriously...

Hmm....wouldn't be the baddest idea i guess...i mean...there could be some feature that every player has the chance to create one PvP-based character. Like in most FFA events he could choose the type before (Sniper, Burster, BG..blah). Those chars then would be the only ones who are allowed to do TC. Of course they would also be restricted to TC areas. But i doubt its the right way in the end at all. There's too much exploiting possibilities and at least it also would destroy the individual gameplay in PvP combat i think.

Beside this i think some of you suggest some more fair way of PvP...like almost same amount of players fighting each other in TC for example...i don't know how that could be done by game mechanics but this would be good imo. I mean the problem is...first gangs who control towns for longer time get some big loot over this period...smaller and or younger factions then have a hard life. They just can't afford to loose everything they got, twice a day or something and at the same time don't mind about that. Here we should have some balance i think. For me its ok, that the gang who builds up fast, after a wipe, and controls cities for first time and also holds them, get some kind of advantage but already after some days the descent between them and some newer faction is big...think u get what i'm trying to explain here

[Crazy]

There will be domination mode if you want equal fight. TC is more wasteland: harsh. The winner can be the most intelligent, numerous, skilled... No matter how, the main point is to win. Create a big gang or an alliance is harder than people seem to think.

[zato1]

There will be domination mode if you want equal fight. TC is more wasteland: harsh. The winner can be the most intelligent, numerous, skilled... No matter how, the main point is to win. Create a big gang or an alliance is harder than people seem to think.

once you got the zerg, the zerglings become too afraid to live without the zerg

[Crazy]

once you got the zerg, the zerglings become too afraid to live without the zerg

*sniff* I smell a troll.
Btw, what is your gang to say that? If you are CS/rogues, that's mean you were/are still/will be zerg, so kindly stfu.

[kttdestroyer]

I see a lot people using big words, but when it comes to explaining them, they suddently have no idea whats the question is about.

So i ask. How do we define word Skill? Current combat system is complicated (non-simple)? Word tactics is very often used together with it. So i ask, what are the tactics in Fallout Online? I am asking, becouse if you use this word, then i assume you understand why you use it.

I will bet for pro player coz:
He will use tactics, not just random shooting.
He will have better screen aim and reaction.
He will always use cover.
He will burst at point blank coz he knows what it have x3 dmg mod.
He will use RL at medium range and avenger at close combat.
Pro player knows his own weak sides and strong sides and he can  turn it  both for advantage.

So, the pro player doesint shot randomly (like, he knows when he will make a good crittical and blind the enemy), you used word tactics, tell me about it.
Yes, he will be clicking faster for sure.
You cant use cover in this game as far i am concerned? Other then hide and reload your ap?
Point blank, if he clicks faster then the opponent. And a pro player clicks faster we have agreed.

So, what we have incommon. 1. Quick clicking 2. Build 3. Knowing the game mechanics. This is Fonline definition of skilled player it seems

Build depends on the skill. If you are experienced and you know what you are doing you will probably make yourself better build than someone who plays for a month or never been in any gang. Thus skill depends on the fight's outcome.

Thats not a skill, thats more like knowalge. It could be called experience aswell. To bad that the game must be decided so much by who got more LK or who got more More Critticals as perks.

Anyway for topic issue, pvp (moreover in groups) its far from easy click... and im really not sure "everyone" has mastered it and then justify that we need more complicated new features

Far from easy click, well, tell me about it, i wonder what you mean mastering, mastering what?  

Sorry to but be rude avv but, what a stupid exemple... how a non-combat char is supposed to kill anything ? ...  

And for skills for pvp, its absolutley clear that its not that simple as some of these posts mention... being a noob with a good powerbuild will save you from time to time but will loose in the end... moreover in gangVSgang fights...

Well, if you find complicated (oposite to simple) to hit-and-run/stand and shot/aim for eyes then you are right.

Man u rly are getting intimidated by those guys. Try shooting them twice with plasma in the eyes within one second and listen to their melted body how they swear. xD

Nope. I am doing quite well with my SG build.

Game is not that simple as u think. There is no ultimate builds it's all about how skilled  u are  and how skilled your team members.

Oh there is, there is ultimate builds for every weapon class avalible. Please explain word Skill, and how it works in Fonline. What does a skilled player do, and what does an unskilled player do you think?

[avv]

Well, it's much I think, that yes, build should be a part of PvP, tough i don't think it make it "build based", even if it's important.

The problem here is that build's role in combat is such that the character does too much for us. It aims for us, resists hits, dodges them, even turns invisible for us. Too much important combat-related manouvres are handled by the char, not us players. So by build-based I mean that better build has higher chances to win. But in games where similar systems exist, there is no better build, just differend builds with differend styles. In fonline we got various non-combat skills that take high investments but do not pay off the same way as combat skills. This separates us from typical build/class based games because combat is not the only thing to do in fonline. But combat is the only way to harm others.

So unless every skill, perk and stat had some way to harm others directly there wouldn't be much to bitch about. But since it's unlikely we're ever able to science someone to death, the easier way out would be to remove how skills affect our combat performance.

So i ask. How do we define word Skill? Current combat system is complicated (non-simple)? Word tactics is very often used together with it. So i ask, what are the tactics in Fallout Online? I am asking, becouse if you use this word, then i assume you understand why you use it.

There is some micromanagement-skill involved when equal builds clash in real time. Turn based requires even less skill. Team-based fighting might have infinite skill-cap since you can never be good enough in teamwork.

[Crazy]

The problem here is that build's role in combat is such that the character does too much for us. It aims for us, resists hits, dodges them, even turns invisible for us. Too much important combat-related manouvres are handled by the char, not us players. So by build-based I mean that better build has higher chances to win. But in games where similar systems exist, there is no better build, just differend builds with differend styles. In fonline we got various non-combat skills that take high investments but do not pay off the same way as combat skills. This separates us from typical build/class based games because combat is not the only thing to do in fonline. But combat is the only way to harm others.

Hey man, it's a RPG! Obviously your char do something instead of you: he have skills, it's not you who aim the eyes, it's him, you just tell him to aim it.
Also, you have to see that fight isn't the the only thing in this game, it's far more vast. You have to make choices: be better at fight, or be able to travel faster? Be able to hide yourself, or to heal? Or maybe just to maintain your gear?
In most MMORPG, all your choices are combat based, as you don't need anything to craft/travel. Here it's different.

[Cha]

Far from easy click, well, tell me about it, i wonder what you mean mastering, mastering what?  

I bet my car you are not in any "big" gang so i understand you have no clue what im talking about... anywawy you should trust gang players when they say what they know... instead of some ironical/smart/sarcasm sentences.

For info : in gang fights, a part from fast clik, you have to manage one/various groups, micromanage same/mix builds , settle postion wisely (we are talking about one hex of precision), aim the correct target regard situation, use max range of weappons/sight range, perfect timings, wisely split groups, scoot properly, manage logisctical issues for getting fast operational, surprise ennemy with new strats, hide/dont some forces, etc..,etc.. tactics/situations are almost infinite

You may say thats not hard or thats not relevent and again its just that you have no clue of what there is going on in gang wars...