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Author Topic: Economy and currency  (Read 5242 times)

Economy and currency
« on: September 29, 2010, 11:50:45 am »

Hello everyone!
I´ve been playin Fonlin for a while and noticed some "problems" and also thought about solutions.

In this topic I want to make some suggestions about Fonlines Economy and currency system.

Main problem is in my oppinion that caps are quite rare, large ammounts of caps are therefore hard to earn.

Description of the problem

Reason for rareness of caps is, that they can only be created by
-shoveling dung
-selling brahmins and slaves
-lifting boxes
-maybe some quests
-interest on bank account

Caps are removed from the Fonline world by
-buying mercs/dogs
-buying brahmins
-buying bases/mines
-learning professions
-buying caravans/cars
-buying books

As you all know you don´t get much caps for shoveling dung, lifting boxes and from quests. Selling brahmins and slaves don´t make you a millionaire either.
At least it will take a long time.
Buying and learning all the things you only get for caps is realy expensive expensive on the other hand.
In addition caps are hoarded by higher level players, or stored on a bank account and therefore removed from circulation in the economy.

About caps and the monetary system in Fonline

Currency system of Fonline is (at the moment) Fiat money, that is money created out of nothing.
That is the system we actually have in real world. So caps, exactly like Dollar, Euro etc. has no inherent value.
So why should it be an accepted currency, why should anyone accept caps as legal tender?
Applying real world logic the answer would be, because someone powerfull forces the people to accept it as legal tender.
In Fonline world this could be the NCR, Enclave, BOS, or other factions powerfull enough. It would be somewhat reasonable that NCR money/caps is worthless outside the NCR, because it is unlikely that all Factions would agree on a common currency.
In reality caps are accepted currency because the Fonline programmers programmed the software the way that it is.

Why monetary system in Fonline is flawed
Problems arise because the amount of money in circulation is growing much slower than amount of goods.
It is easy to craft allot of valuable stuff in short time, but caps are not created in a similar ammount. So the ratio caps/goods is getting more and more out of balance.
Applying real world mechanisms there would be a serious deflation. Today 100caps could buy a 10mm gun, tomorrow the same 100caps (when saved) could buy an assault rifle, and the next week a improved plasma rifle plus combat armor.
As this does not happen (because Fonline economy is not created that way) caps become realy rare and often not available at all (from merchants).

Ways to improve monetary system in Fonline
I see two methods to fix the monetary system.

1. Keep Fiat money sytem, but change controll over it.
At the moment Brahmin herders and slave traders controll money system and creating way to much caps. That would be like the FED prints only 500$ every year.

personal remark:
I´m ignoring the interest topic in this thread, as I don´t want to start a discussion about real world economy problems.

So it would be a very easy solution, if the game masters supply the merchants with significant ammounts of caps from time to time manually. This could be also solved with a caps respawn programmed, but would need checking from time to time.

2. Change monetary system from fiat money to gold stuff standard
In the past most currencys used to be backed up by gold, the so called "gold standard". 
So you could take your money to the bank and exchange it to a certain ammount of gold. As gold is existing only in small numbers in fonline, and (as far as I know) has no real use in fonline, it would not solve the problem to base caps on gold. It wouldn´t be very reasonable from a ingame point of view, and I guess total ammount of caps would be also to small and slowly growing.
But as I don´t know how much gold is created everyday (and this can be changed from the programmers) it would be possible to implement a working gold standard. Wouldn´t be 100% logical, but could work (and that´s most important).

I would prefer (and therefore I propose) to base fonline caps monetary system on "stuff".
Merchants dont need to have the item "caps" in their inventory, but just a button for balance the deal with the apropriate ammount of caps.
This is basicly giving the merchants an unlimited ammount of cash, but making their caps deposit unlootable (don´t know if you can loot merchants of their stuff, never tried this).

Explanation (I ingore barting and merchants profit):

Now: Player sells a 10mm gun to a merchant, he could get a 10mm gun in the same condition in return (I know this would be senseless).
Or he could sell it for 100 caps, if the merchant does have enough caps.

Vision:
Caps based on stuff means that caps are a coupon for stuff, so
1. you could still trade your 10mm gun for a 10mm gun, but
2. you could also give the merchant your 10mm gun, for a coupon/voucher for another 10mm gun.
That coupon would be 100 caps.
You can alway bring the 100 caps back and buy your 10mm gun, or whatelse is worth 100 caps.


This should be simple and working, without need for mantainance by the programmers.

Drawbacks
-If you kill the merchant and loot him of his stuff (if this is possible), you would have the caps and the stuff.
This problem is created by the merchants coupon/caps are accepted by everyone in fallout.

I see two solutions to this problem:
1. make merchants invulnerable or not lootable.
2. Give those unlimited caps only to few institutions.
Maybe make caps the official currency of the NCR, accepted also in the rest of the wasteland (except for enclave).
You can trade all stuff you want to a NCR (federal) bank, or army official (ingame explanation: NCR is buying for their arsenal, or ressources for their industry.) who stores all stuff in a perfectly safe vault, not reachable for anyone, in plain speak destroying the items. So you could sell everything to this NCR bank for caps, but you cannot buy anything from them, nor loot/steal.

This would also reduce the problem that merchants inventory is overgrowing with radios, bb gun ammo, 9mm mauser pistols and other stuff.
I will open another thread regarding this problem.


I hope my suggestions are read and prove somewhat usefull.
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avv

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2010, 11:57:29 am »

Did you just entirely forget that merchants turn old stuff in their inventories into caps?
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2010, 12:10:50 pm »

I did not know this is done. I´ve read the manual and alot in the wiki, but found nothing about this.
The merchants of course don´t notify me about this when doing it and I don´t see other players transactions too.

If this is the way it works, than this is great news (for me).

Then replace my suggestions with this:

-Make merchants turn old stuff in their inventories into caps earlier.
-And maybe let them consider their stock condition somehow. So if they have 60 radios in their stock, let them turn 40 of them into cash immediately.
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 12:30:56 pm »

Did you just entirely forget that merchants turn old stuff in their inventories into caps?
I never knew that. Brings a smile to me face though :D Do you know how long it takes for items to become 'old' ?
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avv

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2010, 01:15:50 pm »

-Make merchants turn old stuff in their inventories into caps earlier.

Won't solve anything unless they turned the stuff into caps in like one minute. The players sell so much useless farmed crap that freshly spawned caps are usually gone in about 30 minutes.

I'd rather have caps given to players mainly via quests. It encourages players to go after the rules of wasteland rather than farming and filling shops with gecko skins and other crap which nobody buys. It's just quests do not have any consequences -  except shit shovelling which cleans up places.

Other way would be that merchants only buy stuff which some player could also buy. The stuff is turned into caps probably because npcs buy them, but honestly why do they buy everything? Shopkeepers already have some favourite items they want to buy but it's not helping. Players go around this with high barter or simply exchange stuff with differend merchants and finally turn it into caps. Our economy needs more player interaction since it's MMO. It would be completely acceptable that players sold useful stuff to merchants when they can't find a player customer at the moment and it was later bought by players again. 
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 01:30:57 pm »

I wonder if its possible to change timers per category.

i.e. Make the last tab where the millions of radios are to become caps every 1 hour. The medicine/food/drinks tab every 3 hours, ammo and weapons every 5 and armor every 6.

Also I would suggest the alternative of it happening slowly over time... ie every 5 minutes 4-5 items (or a percentage) of items become caps.

The effects are that people dont wait until a vendor ends up brimming with caps (like 5 - 10k) and go and sell a truck load of crap and horde it but that there is usually a trickle of caps that makes it wortwhile to actually hang around in the city.
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Wichura

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 01:53:45 pm »

I love it. "I've been played for a while and now I'm gonna spam forum with my brilliant suggestions!".
Stackable radios, well well well, nobody figured it out before. More caps in stores - uh, I didn't know that they are spawning every 6 hours now. And so on, and on.

I'm not against suggestions at all, I'm against suggestions from people who play/test game for a month or week.
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 02:06:39 pm »

God forbid people bring in new ideas and a fresh perspective and thins they notice after 1 week/month of playing.

wait... isnt an open beta supposed to be open?

If Devs only want the veterans opionion they can just close the beta and only give access to the 20-30-50 people that still play since the beginning of development.
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Wichura

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 02:13:32 pm »

Dude, if he suggests something already suggested many times (stackable radios) or done (caps respawn), what else I can say?
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kraskish

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2010, 02:21:27 pm »

I like the idea of more often but smaller capsitazation? When people see there are caps they go to the tent all the junk. Replenishment over time would actually make it worthwile to hang around town, socialize whatever.
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2010, 02:22:59 pm »

@Wichura

If you read my opening post thoroughly, you would notice that my suggestions go way beyond that what is already implemented.
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Eternauta

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 02:53:59 pm »

The idea of balancing a trade with caps was used in Fallout Tactics and it was cool. Well, they didn't use caps but some kind of paper money, but in FOnline it would work with caps. I also like the idea of trading stuff in NCR.

There is a real problem with merchants giving away all their money accepting unbuyable items. I already made a suggestions to add new jobs so there are many more ways to create money. Right now the brahmin shit/boxes system does not work I think. Quest money rewards are ok, but  maybe there aren't enough quests. The solution however would be to change the economy system (like you have suggested) and/or adding new jobs.
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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2010, 04:50:41 pm »

Why not make caps craftable?

They could be highly restricted. Requirements similar to third level of proffesion and nescessity to pay lot of caps for licence. Cooldown and material requirements making it less profitable than crafting and selling stuff.

With that players would be able to regulate caps economy on need basis.
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VongJin

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 05:39:01 pm »

Economy is pretty well balanced coz u missed 1 big money income feature:
 town lockers... each town makes 1500+ caps per hour (longer control more caps, i remember the time when we got about 20+k caps per hour from BH).
Big TC gangs spending this money to buy weapons ammo and armors  from crafters(each big gang have it's own permanent stuff supplyers).

If u really want to become reach, join big deals in black market.

Cultist

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Re: Economy and currency
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2010, 06:41:14 pm »

Economy is pretty well balanced coz u missed 1 big money income feature:
 town lockers... each town makes 1500+ caps per hour (longer control more caps, i remember the time when we got about 20+k caps per hour from BH).
Big TC gangs spending this money to buy weapons ammo and armors  from crafters(each big gang have it's own permanent stuff supplyers).

If u really want to become reach, join big deals in black market.

lol 1.5k an hour is terrible and you'll lose at least 30 times that just doing TC. Luckily for me I play when everyone else sleeps so i have unrestricted access to every merchants cap supply all night but if you play during the day everything gets drained too fast.
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