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Why? Forgot about melee?

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zato1:
melee AND unarmed need special 100% AP abilities that are low damage, high AP cost. either reimplement some old weapons, or rework some of the ones that are currently in, but theres no denying psycho + tesla or even BA completely negates almost any melee functionality besides crippling.

Gorlak:

--- Quote from: zato1 on September 21, 2010, 11:21:00 PM ---melee AND unarmed need special 100% AP abilities that are low damage, high AP cost. either reimplement some old weapons, or rework some of the ones that are currently in, but theres no denying psycho + tesla or even BA completely negates almost any melee functionality besides crippling.

--- End quote ---

I won't deny it, But I will have to prove you wrong.

These tests were not done using any super character. Need to thank Valentine for running 'Ahbobsaget' . 3 melee damage, 8 strength, 11% critical. Character Has better criticals perk( the key to achieving the knockouts / knockdowns, and cripples, that melee is awesome for. )

I had stats of one who might be wearing Brotherhood armor, 8/40 , and 40% DR. Under psycho, DR of 55%

We did Eyes, Groin, Legs, Head for all three of these weapons also, but for the sake of the forum, I will only post the results for Eyeshots. If anyone wants to see the others, let me know.
I figured I would start with a basic weapon..
-Sledgehammer [4-12]
-Sharpened Spear [4-15]
-Super Sledge [18-39]

Sledgehammer / Eyes / Brotherhood armor

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 14 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 1 hit point.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 4 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 6 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 18 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 8 hit points.
--- End code ---

Sledgehammer / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 4 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 8 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 12 hit points and knocked down.
• You were hit in the eyes for no damage.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points.
--- End code ---

Sharpened Spear / Eyes / Brotherhood armor

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 17 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 25 hit points, knocked out and had your armor
• You were hit in the eyes for 2 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 29 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 15 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 6 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 23 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 17 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for 1 hit point.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 12 hit points and knocked down.
--- End code ---

Sharpened Spear / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 35 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 3 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 19 hit points and blinded.
• You were hit in the eyes for 3 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 13 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 39 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 53 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 49 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 5 hit points and knocked down.
--- End code ---

SuperSledge / Eyes / Brotherhood armor

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 53 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 71 hit points and blinded.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 64 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 33 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 81 hit points, knocked out and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 92 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 51 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 42 hit points.
• You were hit in the eyes for 19 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 55 hit points and knocked down.
--- End code ---

SuperSledge / Eyes / Brotherhood armor + Psycho

--- Code: ---• You were critically hit in the eyes for 68 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 6 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 43 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 27 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 20 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 35 hit points and knocked down.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 121 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
• You were hit in the eyes for 11 hit points.
• You were critically hit in the eyes for 71 hit points, blinded and had your armor bypassed.
--- End code ---

Gorlak:
A thought on the other "points" made in this thread:

I've probably put in a couple thousand hours playing melee build of varying types,
i) 15 Melee dmg + aimed shots
ii)15 Melee dmg & fast shot
iii)1 Melee dmg & finesse (35% crit) ,with/without Better critical perk
iv)Finesse & Heavy handed (highly not recommended :D )
v)5 Melee Dmg, 11% critical

@OP , after trying all of these, it's been realized that the pure damage build is not great, but decent versus critters. It will be terrible when facing a player character, 9 out of 10 times.
The bottom line when talking about successful use of melee weapons, is having both... criticals, and damage. 
Better criticals perk.  All anyone needs to know, this is what unleashes the power , and maximum effect of any melee weapon, or gun for that matter.


--- Quote from: RJ on September 17, 2010, 05:01:00 PM ---Well Bob was using almost all possible drugs to pump his character up as much as possible. Psycho, Jets, Buffouts, (Nuka Cola?) to make himself effective against his opponents. Now with changed drugs system it's almost impossible to make such a tank.
--- End quote ---

Yes, RJ thank you,  this is true. After reaching 1,000,000 xp, Ahbobsaget decided to dabble in some drugs. This went on for about the last 3 months of the previous session.
For 3 fabulous months, I ate psycho, and jet. All psycho did is ensure that i didn't get shredded by a single burst from Big gun . As for the jet... well, that shit is just addictive.


--- Quote from: набегат on September 19, 2010, 04:33:49 PM ---Make the character automatically run when he attacks with melee someone who is out of range

--- End quote ---

This is the most terrible, awful, and LAZY idea I have seen.
The only way this could be a good thing, is if - Hit must be selected, when player is within no less than 3-4 hex of target, for the auto run function to kick in.
This should be an optional feature, not one that somebody is forced to use.


--- Quote from: Atom on September 15, 2010, 06:43:19 PM ---One idea was to give the aftermentioned knockback effect working always with Thrust attack, and never with Swing attack.
--- End quote ---

- Not in favor of this. Should stay as it is, perhaps with a slightly higher chance to cause knockback by using 'thrust' than there currently is.  Effect should not be limited to type of attack.


--- Quote from: Atom ---Tweaking knocking distance might balance this out.
--- End quote ---
- This is a selling point of melee character, for me. I want to hit somebody halfway across the damn map, as it is now..   If they are able to stand up after, and run away, so be it.
- Nerf knockback ?  :o


--- Quote from:  Badger ---I do still think unarmed/melee need some kind of disabling attack, however.
--- End quote ---

Disabling attack like crippling? , As i mentioned before, this effect is rarely noticed without a really good critical hit. It is maximized through the use of Better criticals. This is standard for pretty much every weapon/ attack in the game.


--- Quote from:  Badger ---Their only real hope if they get in close is to keep their enemy out of action before they get bursted.
--- End quote ---

Yes, unfortunately this is the truth. In my own and others dream world, there would be some inherent damage resistance.. Some kind of benefits to having melee / unarmed skills tagged , with some check on the items in hands. I mean come on, these players need to get within 2 hex minimum to attack, yet there is nothing in place to Balance Damage taken. The nerf on psycho was dark day for melee user.


Bob's bottom line : Melee is effective, and by no means should it be turned into some point and click lazy bullshit.



There are things which need to change, but changing too much has a tendency to ruin a good thing, as history has proven.
For what it is, you need to accept that this is what you will see for most of the time when playing this class :

Slaver Snipe:
Bob knows all, what he says should go with melee...that 200+ dmg crit was amazing lol.

Ymeogamaouas:
why does melee or unarmed need to be on par with gun related traits?

Humanity started using guns because no matter how good you were with your hands or with a sword or even a chainsword of some kind the person holding the gun was the victor of the day (provided he could hit you and that there was initial distance).

Balance does not need to come from lethality... the actual cost of firing your ammo and having a gun deteriorate is much much higher than that of a spear or sledgehammer or ultimately your hands and in the end force the melee user (and give them the opportunity) to get perks that may help him otherwise... ie high sneak and sneak related perks with a melee/unarmed prequisite or even a much improved version of Dodger Perk (could be 3 tiers, dodger gives you 5, then improved dodger gives another 10 and master dodger 15... total 30 AC ... add a 20 AC armor and your agility 10 and thats a nice 60 Armor... save some AP and get it even higher)

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