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[Holden]

So if someone is blue, but he hates me and often kill me, but i am weak to "charge" my blue karma points, i cannot attack him, until he will attack me first?

 I dont want to continue with this debate, i want only show you, that even simply karma system has many many bugs and you are offering anything new, there were better, but still very limited ideas that could be exploited (i.e. "charge your blue karma via killing bad alts,..).

 No, best solution is no karma at the moment. You have safe places, you have danger places, arm yourself, make group with another players, this is the solution.

If someone is blue and they kill you they will go red. meaning anyone can attack them and gain karma.

If you are weak and cannot kill them how is that different then the game is now?

and if you think someone is going to kill an alt that has negative karma how long would it really take him to gain karma by this way? people often spawn half way across the map, area weakened and have to deal with randoms.

I wouldn't worry about this to much. especially sense you lose more karma killing a 0 or positive karma player then you gain killing negative karma players.

if someone is strong and gains points to attack players and kill them, they still go unprotected if they attack blue or 0 players, this means you can defend yourself.

there is hardly a flaw with this system in fact it would benefit this game much more to have this system then to spawn camp 1 hit kill people with no consequences.

[Holden]

Also consider this:

Even though this is the wasteland, there is still some form of law and conduct.

If you just mindlessly kill every player you see this game is going to die quick.

If a karma system was put into place, they might think twice before pulling the trigger, instead they might decide to just mug you or rob you, and not kill you.

Also take into consideration that other improvements work along with these other systems and suggestions.

IE, re-balance armor, weapons and chest hit damage, making fast shots less effective etc.

the 1 hit kills from anything bigger then the 10mm is stupid.

[Ned Logan]

I don't agree with these global karma systems. If no official (guard) sees someone commit a crime, the stance of the organization to the (successfull) criminal shouldn't change.

On the other hand I agree that current situation is not good.

A) I would like to see more radical reputation changes when you suicide bomb or start shooting "innocent" (because it includes unseen thieves) people in towns.
You should think twice if you pull out a gun on someone in NCR, because next time the guards see you they should shoot you...
Even better would be if you were respawned in the guarded towns jail, and be stuck there until you move lets say 30 boxes or something, your reputation decreasing, but not so that you are killed by the guards right when you are let out of the jail...

B) People should value life more - if you die, there should be some work involved before you can play again. That should also be coded in the client so that you can't relog to different char before you do the work. It has been recently discussed in some thread...

This would encourage us to work more together, create shared name colorizing, which today doesn't really work much...

[Holden]

Just because a guard didn't sees you blow my head off, doesn't mean there isn't proof and the guards wont hear about it.

There definitely needs to be a Karma system to make random killings less frequent. ( I don't want this game to be a mindless frag fest of spawn camping like it is now )

Why should you get to kill me in cold blood and prance into town like nothing ever happened?

No, if you want to be a murderer then you must live like one.
 
For every action there is a reaction, and every choice leads a consequence.

You murder in cold blood un-provoked you don't deserve to go into guarded civilized towns or settlements like vault city, ncr, junktown, san fran or the hub.

Murderers can stick to their tents, necropolis, the den, outskirt towns,raider areas and new reno.

Its true this thread is largely about pvp and some type of Karma system to help keep this game interesting and fun, not a laggy frag fest.

But it is equally about other improvements listed on the Original Post

[DonGizmo]

If someone is blue and they kill you they will go red. meaning anyone can attack them and gain karma.

 He has 500+ karma (blue), because he spend one week by killing bluesuits with red karma he created with his friends. He can kill very many players, even blue, without consequences for his gameplay.

 For christ, your suggestion is bullshit, sorry. First, look at existing karma projects and try to find something that could even work.

 Fonline dont need Karma. Arm yourself, join team or at least think!!!! if you enter PvP free locations. It is very usefull (i know many tactics how to survive enemy PK even without fight, of course i will not tell you at public = PM me if you want).

[RavenousRat]

He has 500+ karma (blue), because he spend one week by killing bluesuits with red karma he created with his friends. He can kill very many players, even blue, without consequences for his gameplay.

 For christ, your suggestion is bullshit, sorry. First, look at existing karma projects and try to find something that could even work.

 Fonline dont need Karma. Arm yourself, join team or at least think!!!! if you enter PvP free locations. It is very usefull (i know many tactics how to survive enemy PK even without fight, of course i will not tell you at public = PM me if you want).

This is not a problem, and can be easily solved, I though the problem is:
PK has good karma, it forces you to shoot 1st or run away.

So:
1) You gaining evil karma each time you deal damage to neutral and good.
2) You gaining good karma each time you... don't deal damage to someone non-red, I mean with a time, and if you're neutral you'll gaing this karma very very slow, later it'll be faster, so your name will be blue, then light blue and white, white means you didn't killed non-red people like 1 real life month of playing time (or standing afk at base, but it's useless, because you can simply kill one good/neutral and instantly lose it all, so standning afk at base to neutral can be useful only, but again, if you're going PK, why the hell do you need it?).
3) Well... that's all! You can't gain good karma by any other way, except for waiting and non-killing neutral and good players.
4) Killing atleast one player being good/neutral should insntantly make your karma negative, so you can turn from white to red by just killing poor bluesuiter with sledgehammer.
*"Oops! Poos bluesuiter was hit instead of PK who followed him" doesn't count as kill, the same as now, if you kill someone with this in NCR, guards will do nothing, because it's not player's fault.
**a) Unfortnately splash damage from bazookas and grenades will affect it, so they can use " neutral/good hostages" near them, but the can't abuse it with red karma friend standing near person they want to kill without losing karma.
**b) If you'll shoot with bazooka/grenade at evil person and also kill innocent near it won't affect your karma, so running with neutral/good alt near will be useless, but it can be abused with evil friends who standing near good karma people, and other good karma guy can "accidentaly" shoot with bazooka at him.
b - less abusable, I think + it's not that hard to run away from red guy if someone else standing with bazooka/grenades near and waiting till he come to you.

So as you can see blue and white persons = he was playing long time and didn't touch neutral and good persons.
Red (or any other colors like purpe, orange etc.) = he killed someone non-red.
Also why red karma people should be attacked on sight without reacting guards? That's silly.
Karma shouldn't affect anything with guards and protection, it just shows players who is he: neutral or red means he is dangerous or unknown, blue and other good colors means he won't kill you on sight... probably. That's all, NPCs don't what karma you have, if you're reddish-red with -10kk karma, it doesn't mean guards won't protect you. Of couse they will.
But again, it's useless, you can use name colorizing for that yourself + name colorizing more realistic incase "you don't know that person, but game shows that he is PK, wtf? you first time see him". Only if karma will affect character's gameplay, like if you want join raider you should be bad, so go kill innocent, if NCR rangers go and not kill neutral/good, because you must be good, etc.

[DonGizmo]

Karma sux, no need for it. Dont know why you need it.

[Enzo]

Karma sux, no need for it. Dont know why you need it.

its your opinion... my opinion is, that we need some kind of karma system, because there should be consequences for sense-less killing (for example)

[brad smalls]

yeah the one hitting is bull same with 2 bursting with minigun maby you should stay at ncr and be careful and us opserve

(to add to the topic the spawn systim i asked weather we can have the old systim or my new thing you spawn at a point once and it gose aroung but i heard that huboligests clone you or somethin a guy said its un-realistic that they spawn us that the same spot but would you drag a body from san fran to vc and then from there to addytum would you)

[DonGizmo]

its your opinion... my opinion is, that we need some kind of karma system, because there should be consequences for sense-less killing (for example)

 I accept that we need less sense less killing, but aproach is dumb. Setting numerical rule that allows you kill limited enemies and if you reach this number, you are fu..ed = karma.

 Only real system is tu support anti PK roleplayers, traders, scavengers,... ANOTHER ROLE PLAY than PK. More players will then do something entertaining than PK.

 But simply people see only simple solutions..

[avv]

Fallout 1&2 was based around good and bad but our game seems to be based on faction reputation hence the feature existing. So once it's put properly in the action we should be able to see the enemies and friends of our factions. Of course attacking friendly players could cause serious and perhaps permanent consequences to the wrongdoer.

[Ned Logan]

I accept that we need less sense less killing, but aproach is dumb. Setting numerical rule that allows you kill limited enemies and if you reach this number, you are fu..ed = karma.

 Only real system is tu support anti PK roleplayers, traders, scavengers,... ANOTHER ROLE PLAY than PK. More players will then do something entertaining than PK.

 But simply people see only simple solutions..

Yeah I totally agree with you in this.
People would rather have some fucked up good vs evil & all-seeing-eye-watching-over-us system, which if gets implemented, I most probably quit. Not because I would be sad that it disadvantages PKs (Im "anti-PK"), but because it is fun that this universe is relativistic, where your actions mean different things to different groups (if they are seen), not unlike real world... There is no simple good or evil, no "right" and "wrong"...

I hope the game stays without this global karma system and more thigs like the TTTLA criminal records appear, in community form, where everyone can add their opinion on other player with some evidence (screenshot)...

[joshwa]

I love fallout, I love the idea of a fallout MMO and you have done a great job at creating fonline however there are some severe game breaking issues that need patching asap.

This game has so much potential but its being hindered and is failing and making people ( like me ) lose interest quickly.

Lets start with the pvp system.

first off when someone loads into a zone someone is on the other side and kills them instantly before they can even react.
This is because of load zone camping and 1 hit killing and is one of the BIGGEST PROBLEMS with this game.

this is bad, lets list the other good and bad things about pvp shall we?

Good ideas:
bounty's = good
ability to pvp in wilderness randoms = good
some towns don't have guards = good


Bad Ideas:
kill anyone without consequences = bad
1 shot kills in pvp = bad
Level gap in pvp = bad
Can't call guards on theifs = bad
Guard cities have entire green zones without guards = bad ( hub I'm lookin at you )
Load zone camping and no loading protection time. = bad

My suggestion to fix these things >

Add protection time when loading into a new zone. ( make players going into cities or new areas protected from pvp for 15 seconds with a cooldown so they cant safe scout to far )

Add more then one area to enter into all major cities ( allow us to choose where to spawn in IE front gate, back gate, or middle of city this will stop spawn camping )

Allow people to type /guards and guards will kill any red player or unprotected player ( thief ) in the players or guards line of sight.

Re-balance guns and levels so people cannot 1 hit kill anymore.

Add a shit load of emphasis on specific targeting ( targeting body parts, IE hitting chest does hardly any damage )

Add Karma ratings to pvp kills, everyone starts neutral ( 0 karma ) go below 0 karma and you go red, go above 0 and you go blue.

Kill a gray ( neutral 0 karma ) player and you get -5 to karma.

kill a blue ( greater then 0 karma ) player and get -10 karma.

Kill red ( less than 0 karma ) player and get +5 karma

Guards automatically kill or arrest players with negative karma ( red players )

Towns without guards are good places for these players to be and thrive.

All True! I agree.

I would add that another problem that RUIN this beautifull project are the power builds that ppls make thanks to the fact that we can create another pg with the role to make all necessitary that need the pg with the Power Build.
Not for nothing, many ppls with wich i speak, say me that, now how now, FOnline is the game of Alts (Alternatives Pg)
This contribuition to riuns gameplay, economy.
Fallout IS NOT QUAKE!

[Holden]

All True! I agree.

I would add that another problem that RUIN this beautifull project are the power builds that ppls make thanks to the fact that we can create another pg with the role to make all necessitary that need the pg with the Power Build.
Not for nothing, many ppls with wich i speak, say me that, now how now, FOnline is the game of Alts (Alternatives Pg)
This contribuition to riuns gameplay, economy.
Fallout IS NOT QUAKE!

Thank you, and I agree with you as well alts are really dumb, having an alt that crafts everything and one that does all the fighting is dumb.

They should make it take 30 mins to swap characters to discourage people from swapping chars.

I want to see people in this game work together not instantly kill one another just because they can do so without any negative effects.

@those of you talking about karma.

It's not about an all seeing eye or about limiting you killing your enemies, if you truly are a pker, or need to kill your enemies, or opposing factions then you can do so very easy , but what a karma system does do is it discourages you from blowing off blue suits heads for no reason other then you can.

Take for example you can make this system very very simple

max negative karma = -100
max positive karma = +1
neutral = 0

Kill anyone 0 or +1 then you get -10
Kill anyone -1 to -100 then you get +1

wait 6 hours game time you get +1

True murderers will live like murderers and stay clear of guards and pk outside of town or in non guard towns, while people who are in factions and faction bases can kill opposing factions without effecting karma.

this way noone can " stack " karma to kill blues, and if they murder they cant just go into a guard town and kill more without a consequence, however red towns are open to them as well as their faction bases.

you just want to be able to use all the towns and get easy kills without consequences, if this continues this game will not grow past your type of player and you will be stuck spawn killing yourselves.

[DonGizmo]

you just want to be able to use all the towns and get easy kills without consequences, if this continues this game will not grow past your type of player and you will be stuck spawn killing yourselves.

 1) This is wasteland, not sims
 2) Fonline was even more hardcore than it is
 3) If you have problem with PK at this stage of era, i can tell you, that Fonline is not for you. All organized PvP gangs (PK or anti PK) are not active. So you can go to cities with more than ever possibility to survive.
 4) People should think, not rely on some mechanism that will helps only one sort of people.
 a) use town preview
 b) never use main entrance even if it looks safe (majority of PK wait there)
 c) PKs are mostly active in groups, if you see one, anticipate at least another one, if you see one in CA, anticipade whole group
 d) PKs concentrate in locations/cities or city locations, where  HQ minerals, or goods stuff traders/drug dealers are => they need this .. if you dont need anything of this to your roleplay, you can safely play this game with limited possibility of being killed by PK (NCR, HUB, Junktown, San Fran,..) = mostly safe cities  X New Reno = legitime PvP arena, dont forget this
 e) arm yourself: use the best possible equip if you are even in safe locations and on world map, but if you are not lvl 21, do opposite, many of PKs will not kill you, if you are in bluesuit, but you have to be smart and quick
 f) group your self with another players if you want to get resources, drugs, at least temporary for that action
 g) make frriends with anti PK behaviour players
 h) after TC battles, there is mostly clean "window" of non PK activity, because of drug after effects => but not promptly (post battle sneakers looting activity) .. cca 5 minutes after end, but only if anti PK faction won
 i) use brain, you will 100 percently find another way how to win over PK without single shot
-------------------------> the wasteland is core enviroment and need to think makes this game very entertaining
 5) you suggest karma system that is obsolete.
 a) you use terms of PK and non PK, but life in wasteland is more variable: we have friends, we have enemies and we are not PK, we are anti PK gang.. but your karma syste will eliminate this
 b) your karma system will help only you (or your sort of players), there are others. Even if you are not PK, you have reason to kill somebody, even he have good karma: he is traitor from your base and he stole your stuff, he is member of pk gang (i.e. trader), but he has good karma, he killed you before and you want revenge,.....

 6) Your karma system integration would CURE ONLY SYPMTOMS, not heal the problem of PK. People PK too much (not now of course, server is dead), because they dont have any other opportunities to do. There is not PvE, there is not scavenging, there are not quests you can do after 2 days of adventure.