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Future of Stealing

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HertogJan:

--- Quote from: smoothjesus on August 26, 2010, 05:56:46 am ---http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c

this shouldn't happen.

one player prevented from trading by one other player.

if I don't have anything in my inventory I don't run from thieves. So I think my assumption was fair.

--- End quote ---

That's what I have been saying, there needs to be a solution to this.
Most tent followers have ammo and stims or something like that in their inventory.
If you don't have anything in your inventory, thieves won't bother you when they've noticed that.


--- Quote from: avv on August 26, 2010, 11:11:49 am ---Why skill percentage deciding a success is bad? Because it does the job for us players. It's basically the same thing if football players threw dice about who won a match, instead of competing in teamwork and agility.

It doesn't matter if it's special or skill percentage. It's the same concept. You've just invested points somewhere and that's it.

I never said wepons skills or outdoors should influence success. But they do it now which isn't however how it should be.

Levelling and exping doesn't have anything to do with player's cleverness. It takes time but you certainly cannot fail in levelling. You'll level up someday anyway.

--- End quote ---

Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.
And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.

avv:

--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 26, 2010, 01:48:09 pm ---Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.
--- End quote ---

Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.

What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of  players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.

So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.

Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 26, 2010, 01:48:09 pm ---That concept is part of this game.
--- End quote ---

It's a concept from an old singleplayer where your opponents were npcs.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 26, 2010, 01:48:09 pm ---And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.
--- End quote ---

What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.

HertogJan:

--- Quote from: avv on August 26, 2010, 03:35:01 pm ---Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.

What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of  players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.

So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.

--- End quote ---

Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket perk.
Weight could be added.

All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.

I'm all in favour of adding darkness to the mix, but not just for thieving, also for fighting, sneaking (if not already in), etc.


--- Quote from: avv on August 26, 2010, 03:35:01 pm ---Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.
--- End quote ---

Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.



--- Quote from: avv on August 26, 2010, 03:35:01 pm ---What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.

--- End quote ---

The point is that thieving wokrs fine.
There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).

avv:

--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 27, 2010, 02:48:20 pm ---Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket perk.
Weight could be added.
--- End quote ---

First we got to decide how the stealing is going to work by default before thinking about perks.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 27, 2010, 02:48:20 pm ---All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.
--- End quote ---

I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 27, 2010, 02:48:20 pm ---Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.

--- End quote ---

Could work in synergy with the current group-tagging.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 27, 2010, 02:48:20 pm ---The point is that thieving wokrs fine.
--- End quote ---

Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.


--- Quote from: HertogJan on August 27, 2010, 02:48:20 pm ---There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).
--- End quote ---

And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.

Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.

HertogJan:

--- Quote from: avv on August 27, 2010, 06:28:49 pm ---I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.

--- End quote ---

Define shop.
Buster's tent clearly.
Sha Enin's space?
It makes no sense.
Thieves go there were the money is, this means shops.
People want to trade safely?
Go in when it's quiet, avoid NCR, etc.
You might just as well make pk impossible in shops or questing.

Only thing that should change here is some shop owners and some shop/flc guards are stealable.
That's wrong.
It means you can always steal your stuff back if you fail and get killed.

Only thing your suggesting does is getting more people harassed at the NCR bazar, which means less people there.
People move, thieves follow.


--- Quote from: avv on August 27, 2010, 06:28:49 pm ---Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.

--- End quote ---

There's overlap between spies, scouts, thieves and assassins, but also some major differences.
A small gunner isn't a bg expert either.
Spies, scouts and assassins wouldn't steal as it means they risk getting caught.
They also come prepared, ready to do their job and get out.

There are a lot of better ways of getting money than just stealing.
My doctor alt for instance can make money a lot more easily than my thief alt.
Especially when the faction is helping with gathering materials.


--- Quote from: avv on August 27, 2010, 06:28:49 pm ---And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.

Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.

--- End quote ---

Which is better than the current situation in which tools like FOCD means you have a huge advantage over people who don't use it (like auto aim).
Skills should have a lower max, 300% is bullshit.
Max. it to 200, only allow 1 skill to reach it, 1 at max. 180, 1 at max. 150, 1 or 2 at max. 120, etc.

All skills work simular.
Change all of them or none of them.
Don't change 1, just because you don't like the effects of it.

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