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[Nice_Boat]

If you keep spamming gang-related stuff and insults which has nothing to do with this thread I lock it.
So, please behave a bit.

How about cleaning it up instead since there's still legit discussion going on? I mean, does a thread have to be locked only because some people wish to ruin it because it disrupts their agenda? There are still a few things that need clarification here, and I think it's better to do it in public than behind the scenes. Please note that the people who recently did the provoking (Pozzo, RJ) didn't really participate in the discussion up to this point. Don't let the trolls win.

[LeMark]

Watching GM is the Dev duty not our.

[RJ]

So Nice Boat you want to tell me that if I don't post every 10 minutes it means I can't have my own opinion and tell you what I think about your suggestion? That I don't post doesn't mean that I don't read your posts in this topic. Also you are very quick on making this thing going as you want to close this suggestion with final thoughts after 2 days. Very hasty as for so important issue.

When it comes to "Trollgore" it was pretty good mental abbreviation seeing how Kilgore provoked situation with Jovanka (no need to mention his other merits in game, forum and IRC). If you have doubts you can check definition of trolling. Calling me RedJerk was just double insult - nothing more.

[Pozzo]

Please note that the people who recently did the provoking (Pozzo, RJ) didn't really participate in the discussion up to this point

Yep maybe I trolled a bit but at the beginning my opinion about the thread was : we don't need a policy for GMs.

I wanted to take the problem from the beginning, pointing that in this kind of community players should not everyday point the finger up to the GMs and think about their own behavior. I Think that in every game the staff is the mirror of the community. I don't know if you really have proofs of what you say but I think that if players are immatures so GMs will act like watchmen and you will always feel paranoiac.

Ok I don't give my opinion about your propositions but I don't care about they and I give my own solution : be mature so the community will be so the GMs will be able to do their real job.

[HertogJan]

Player abuse is not the subject here and actually has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Moreover, the Devs must think it's not a hilarious joke if they agreed to appointing me for the function if the community agrees. Now, I'm a man of compromise, so I won't even propose such a thing and I don't think it'd be right, but I think that all the gangs could agree to a solution in which they all have one man inside. And honestly, even if we all were the greatest cheaters in gaming history, having us watch each other would amount to what we all ultimately want - no abuse, no exploits, everything fair and square.

I'm not that serious, it's just that I take this game on a competitive level because it doesn't really offer much more after you play it for a while. Many people with a few months of experience feel the same, and sustaining a situation in which GMs can act on a whim without any supervision is ultimately going to scare them away. Saying that it's a non-commercial game changes nothing - being non-commercial doesn't mean it has to be bad and use bad solutions when it comes to this aspect. Furthermore, the Devs don't have anything against this idea - for their own reasons (and I'm quite sure they're well founded) they don't want the logs to be made public, that's all.

Player abuse and cheating has everything to do with this the moment you suggest such players need to be rewarded with some level of control.
I don't know any game where such bad behavior is rewarded and I don't see any reason it should be done here.
All the gangs agreeing to having someone inside?
You mean only the big gangs, leaving out the smaller gangs and the people not in gangs.
Bad idea as your suggestions will ultimately result in making the game less attractive for new players.

On most servers GM or whatever you call them dealing with daily issues aren't under continious supervision.
In the cases they are, they certainly aren't under the supervision of the people they are supposed to help and supervise.
For some weird reason it doesn't scare people away because players know they are the lowest in the hierarchy on a server.
This game being commercial or not has nothing to do with it.
As for the devs, with whom you apparently already have been talking about this outside this thread, I prefer to hear things from them instead of hearsay from you.

As for continuation of this thread, you yourself are partly responsible for it's degredation.
No offense to you, but you more and more start to sound like a small child crying and stamping it's feet on the ground in order to get what it wants.
As I said above, bad behavior should not be rewarded in anyway.

If there should be a supervisor (which I think there's no need for) it should be someone who's in no way tied to any of the major gangs.
People who have and never had any ties to the major gangs, also have no prejudice towards them and most likely also not towards the GMs coming from them.
Like you, I'm not in for such a (probably ungrateful) job.
I think GMs are doing fine and you blow things out of proportion.

Yep maybe I trolled a bit but at the beginning my opinion about the thread was : we don't need a policy for GMs.

I wanted to take the problem from the beginning, pointing that in this kind of community players should not everyday point the finger up to the GMs and think about their own behavior. I Think that in every game the staff is the mirror of the community. I don't know if you really have proofs of what you say but I think that if players are immatures so GMs will act like watchmen and you will always feel paranoiac.

Ok I don't give my opinion about your propositions but I don't care about they and I give my own solution : be mature so the community will be so the GMs will be able to do their real job.

There's 1 policy which fits us all: behave and respect other people

[Kilgore]

When it comes to "Trollgore" it was pretty good mental abbreviation seeing how Kilgore provoked situation with Jovanka (no need to mention his other merits in game, forum and IRC). If you have doubts you can check definition of trolling. Calling me RedJerk was just double insult - nothing more.

Oh please. You use insults - you receive insults. Next time, think 2 times before using it. Now you just try to justify insulting other people with some kind of bs.
Knowing how big a hypocrite you are, it doesn't suprise me much, though.

Well, let's hope that the next time you start insults/flame/trolling, some moderator will junk it soon enough. Still, I can't believe how someone could give such a troll like yourself moderating rights anywhere in this forum.

[Nice_Boat]

I'm still waiting for anything constructive as to the main point of the discussion. If it doesn't appear, I will just assume that nobody minds and do my worst behind the scenes. I may succeed, I may fail - but honestly - is that the way we want things done here? Can't we be a community for a change when it comes to that? All I wanted was a bit of transparency, and yet I get a lot of barking, accusations of cheating and whatnot. Come on people. Nobody is going to be hurt. It's for the good of us all. I can't see how anyone can justify refusing this shit, and nobody did propose any other criteria for the GM controller appointments even though I asked. All we have here right now is stupid criticism and people who ultimately don't have anything to do with the issue trying to act all high and mighty. Why can't we solve it in a mature way?

[LeMark]

Nice Boat your solution will end in a huge war of GM vs Players, people will make accusation for all and nothing. Dev have to watch GM, maybe GM can watch each other. But never player can have the log of GM action, that can't be a option... I don't understand why a dev didn't close this topic already...

[Rejfyl]

  Im playing this game from the beginnig of open beta and my opinion is that GM behavior must be controlled somehow. We can't let situation when one player is abused by GM and there is no chance that he can prove his rights. Screenshots, player logs aren't enough. Im not even sure if someone is checking this kind of reports.

Finally, its unacceptable in my opinion, when topic about some GM abuse is moved to junk by this GM. Is that what you want it? And please don't tell me this kind of situation should be solved by sending PM to this game master;)

[Lonelylurker]

I'm still waiting for anything constructive as to the main point of the discussion. ... All we have here right now is stupid criticism and people who ultimately don't have anything to do with the issue trying to act all high and mighty. Why can't we solve it in a mature way?

I consider a point-by-point examination of the practicality and ultimate impact of your proposals to be trying to "solve it in a mature way".

I also notice that you haven't addressed, or even acknowledged, the concerns I raised. Despite playing this game off and on for over a year now am I one of these "people who ultimately don't have anything to do with the issue trying to act all high and mighty."?

[Kilgore]

Nice Boat your solution will end in a huge war of GM vs Players, people will make accusation for all and nothing.

They made accusations (from the very beginning of this open beta), they make accusations and they will make accusations. The more they do it, the less devs care about it. Because, yes, some players overreact and/or just paranoid. All we need is someone between players and devs, who will filter such things and report them to devs if necessary. No one has said about players interfering with GM actions or even punishing them (lol), as this would be ridiculous, yet every now and again someone comes up with "Oh my god they want to decide about GMs" stuff.

[HertogJan]

I'm still waiting for anything constructive as to the main point of the discussion. If it doesn't appear, I will just assume that nobody minds and do my worst behind the scenes. I may succeed, I may fail - but honestly - is that the way we want things done here? Can't we be a community for a change when it comes to that? All I wanted was a bit of transparency, and yet I get a lot of barking, accusations of cheating and whatnot. Come on people. Nobody is going to be hurt. It's for the good of us all. I can't see how anyone can justify refusing this shit, and nobody did propose any other criteria for the GM controller appointments even though I asked. All we have here right now is stupid criticism and people who ultimately don't have anything to do with the issue trying to act all high and mighty. Why can't we solve it in a mature way?

So as soon as people disagree with you it's not constructive?
If there's someone in this thread who isn't constructive it's you as you don't respond to arguments made by various people.
If people didn't care, they wouldn't be posting in this thread.
Some people judged you based upon your passed behavior, don't blame them if that doesn't turn out to be good for you.

1 more time: there is not 1 single game in which players have any level of control over GMs and this shouldn't be the first one.
I refuse to believe that there are GMs who are regularly harassing players from certain factions or just players in general.
Either you are paranoid or you have been punished for bad behavior.
Either way it's not a reason for such extreme measures.
I'm pretty sure if devs where under the impression the GMs are doing a bad job, they would have done something about it already.

Coming back to your points 1 more time:
1. Bad idea for a variety of reasons. GM logs should only be available to other GMs and to devs. Add a line to player logs when devs do certain actions to their accounts like teleporting, adding/removing/altering items, skin, etc. If players want to report GM behavior they need to add the logs and in the logs should be a time stamp of the in game time. No time stamp means the thread is moved to junk.

2. As mentioned already, virtually impossible.

3. This suggest there's a large amount of complaints about GM abuse and something is seriously wrong. i doubt that as there would be much more complaints about GM action than there are now. So far I've seen nothing more than a bunch of people whining about things they think happened.
Having 1 person from each major gang be part of this? No way. As I said before, bad behavior, for instance by your gang, should not be rewarded. If this is the path devs want to take, they should take an experienced player who doesn't have ties with GMs and major gangs. I'm sure there are few around. Hopefully 1 of them is willing in case devs want to do this.

4. A clear set of rules is okay, making things outside it unpunishable is an open invitation to using exploits (adding a rule about not using exploits won't change that).
Most important rule: behave and respect other people. If people follow this one up, most of the problems on the server would be gone.

[Wipe]

Small things first.

How about cleaning it up instead since there's still legit discussion going on? I mean, does a thread have to be locked only because some people wish to ruin it because it disrupts their agenda? (...)

As i understand, it's discussion between players and devs, about a group which is between them. Even if most of GMs are moderators here, this thread shouldn't be cleaned by any of them, to avoid river of "censorship" and "tyrany" tears. Every deleted post can be missed by devs, even if arguments are between 20 lines of flame. But it's only my private opinion.

(...) Still, I can't believe how someone could give such a troll like yourself moderating rights anywhere in this forum.

RJ have moderator rights only on polish board and nowhere else... and it is a place for such questions. Once again, check your informations before posting anything.
Back to topic.

How about #3 being 3 guys from the major alliances? Everyone would be watching everyone else, it'd be both balanced and hard to rig because those people would have conflicting interests.

I'd like to know what makes you think that "major alliances" are only part of server that should decide what is good and what is bad in GMs actions? Please, don't feed me with "FOnline is about PEW PEW", i hear it long enough. And current 'Dialogs Competition' is small step to change this wrong thinking. Also, i doubt that PvE players, constantly killed by PvP heroes, will trust in judgement made by people who think of them as crying carebear shit with loot. I don't want to even mention that "major alliances" are first that will forget about "conflicting interests" just to kick some GM.

Second thing, how you want to choose this "major alliances"? And who will be the one to choose? Obviously not GMs. Devs does not track gang wars too, AFAIK. Who left? Gangs? Brave idea, decision will never be made. Poll on forum? It will not work. Maybe some random factions then? "OMG, abooze!"

...that's not a way.

Even if your suggestions are almost good, people who get info about GMs actions should stay like now. We know only few methods that are currently used to control our action (and logs are one of this). This can be expanded in great way, you just need some imagination and free time to write a code. Whatever it will be, it will be working best as long less people know about it. And you hardly find someone who want the game clean of any kind of corruption than devs. But first you must stop repeating that devs doesn't care about anything, and players are only group that worry about this game.

[eBay]

I'd like to know what makes you think that "major alliances" are only part of server that should decide what is good and what is bad in GMs actions? Please, don't feed me with "FOnline is about PEW PEW", i hear it long enough. And current 'Dialogs Competition' is small step to change this wrong thinking. Also, i doubt that PvE players, constantly killed by PvP heroes, will trust in judgement made by people who think of them as crying carebear shit with loot. I don't want to even mention that "major alliances" are first that will forget about "conflicting interests" just to kick some GM.

Second thing, how you want to choose this "major alliances"? And who will be the one to choose? Obviously not GMs. Devs does not track gang wars too, AFAIK. Who left? Gangs? Brave idea, decision will never be made. Poll on forum? It will not work. Maybe some random factions then? "OMG, abooze!"

...that's not a way.

Even if your suggestions are almost good, people who get info about GMs actions should stay like now. We know only few methods that are currently used to control our action (and logs are one of this). This can be expanded in great way, you just need some imagination and free time to write a code. Whatever it will be, it will be working best as long less people know about it. And you hardly find someone who want the game clean of any kind of corruption than devs. But first you must stop repeating that devs doesn't care about anything, and players are only group that worry about this game.

well, big pvp factions are predators, the end of the food chain, most of the players end up in one of them, the most experienced and best players are members of those factions, we know more about the game than most of u, gms.

"But first you must stop repeating that devs doesn't care about anything,"

well most of the people here are talking about U GMS, in my opinion  "wipe" supposed to lose the gm right long time ago u never help, u always pretend you are away, if u come most of the time u harm people more than help them, look at the bottom of ur post
"There is nothing as demotivating as the players" dude stop being a gm, if thats what u belive,
there is another guy Izual but thats a different storry

[Surf]

u always pretend you are away

Maybe you didn't know, but sometimes people are actually busy?
And if I was Wipe and would receive messages like the last one from you no wonder some people tend to "ignore" such messages.

And the "There is nothing as demotivating as the players" is not Wipe's sentence, it's a quote.