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Author Topic: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent  (Read 17984 times)

Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #105 on: July 20, 2010, 12:37:21 am »

nice dude u know better what she thinks about it, a brain scanner, can i have one?
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Heckler Spray

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2010, 01:40:26 am »

eBay, please, stop this, it's so childish...

Well, if you think GMs have to be overseen (I must say I don't think it's that necessary, but...), instead of a watchdog, maybe there should be  a "referring GM" in the GMs team ? Some GM who were not affiliated to any gang, who would "supervise" other GMs. So if any player have any problem with a GM, he would consult this guy. He would have to be compliant, sedate... I don't know if this kind of people exists...  :P

I bet some of you woouldn't trust this guy cause he would be a GM though.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 02:17:39 am by Heckler Spray »
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JovankaB

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2010, 02:06:08 am »

in my opinion  "wipe" supposed to lose the gm right long time ago u never help, u always pretend you are away, if u come most of the time u harm people more than help them, look at the bottom of ur post
"There is nothing as demotivating as the players" dude stop being a gm, if thats what u belive,
there is another guy Izual but thats a different storry

When I joined the team I was surprised by the amount of work the GMs do, and amount of things they have to learn, and as a player I would never imagine it's so hard and stressful job.

An individual player can't see even 1% of GM work, if you gathered all players on server they would know maybe about 30% of all GM activities, so what can you say about who is helpful or not here? Obviously YOU don't know what are you talking about AT ALL, sir. And yet you keep talking and judging. You have some scraps of info about GMs, largely based on lies and paranoia, stuff like: (-"JovankaB was exploding us in the Modoc Militia times!" -"I wasn't GM back then" -"Oh, maybe it wasn't you... but someone was bombing us!" - my recent IRC conversation).

And it's definitely not up to you to judge who is useful or not here. Devs and only devs can judge us. You know almost NOTHING and we owe you NOTHING. And especially we don't owe anything to people who make our work 10 times harder by cheating day by day and pretend to be "testers" and who now try to introduce some rule of angry mob. And as a last note: I'm not talking about the person who started this thread, he is an honest player as far as I can tell and has some valid points.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 02:28:10 am by JovankaB »
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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #108 on: July 20, 2010, 02:11:00 am »

well most of the people here are talking about U GMS, in my opinion  "wipe" supposed to lose the gm right long time ago u never help, u always pretend you are away, if u come most of the time u harm people more than help them, look at the bottom of ur post

Wipe helped us buying a bunker a few days ago by making the ghoul in Necropolis temporarily available (thanks for that).
It might just be you're not on at the right times or you cried wolf one time too often.

I'm wondering how you can be sure who of the GMs is on.
If none are on you get a message saying so.
If 1 or more are on you're either contacted or not.
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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #109 on: July 20, 2010, 02:52:40 am »

Maybe you didn't know, but sometimes people are actually busy?
There is a difference between being busy and being constantly busy. If someone is always busy, he/she should give up this job and someone else should do it.
Quote
And the "There is nothing as demotivating as the players" is not Wipe's sentence, it's a quote.
The fact that she has it in signature is quite important, because it reflects her feelings about beta-testers. But what to expect from someone that stated many times that most of beta-testers are completely useless.

As I stated in some thread before, even those beta-testers, who are just so-called exploiters, cheaters and jerks (like pozzo or someone would say), help in developing this game, just by using those exploits/cheats/other stuff. The more they use it, the more important is to fix it. No no, I don't justify cheating in any way - cheating remains cheating and it should be prohibited. What I want to say is that the people you usually blame for searching and using exploits and bugs that can help them, in fact often help you more in developing this game that a casual player who plays just fair and square. Even if they don't report bugs straight away - someone else will report it or GMs/devs will get aware of them. For me, dude who is using 5 instances of Fonline simultaneously, uses fast relogs is most likely to find exploits/bugs than a player that doesn't do it. Though I don't encourage such type of behavior, because it always leads to getting unfair advantage against other players and often destroys what they want to have also from playing - fun.

Shangalar

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2010, 10:53:13 am »

Quote
The fact that she has it in signature is quite important, because it reflects her feelings about beta-testers. But what to expect from someone that stated many times that most of beta-testers are completely useless.

As you might have seen, more than one GM has such funny sentence to remember players can be asses :)

Being GM, and also dev if we talk about this, is often being harrassed by players who just don't respect them at all. ("gimme a fokin PA, asshole !")

You can see this as a way to externalize, because despite what you all say about GM abuse, in 90% of the situations, we just shut our mouths. But sometimes, players just go too far with provocations. And they reap what they sow.

Anyway, some of the oldest GMs may feel tired, and need a little break. We new GMs are also here for that. End of the bracket.

Nice_Boat

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am »

So as soon as people disagree with you it's not constructive?

This thread was about X. People Started talking Y. I said it wasn't constructive. Simple logics. Maybe it works different on ET servers, but hey, it's like that everywhere else, so please adapt.

If there's someone in this thread who isn't constructive it's you as you don't respond to arguments made by various people.
If people didn't care, they wouldn't be posting in this thread.

Arguments like...? Because the only arguments against I've seen up to this point are "you're an asshole" and "GMs are always right".

Some people judged you based upon your passed behavior, don't blame them if that doesn't turn out to be good for you.

Oh but I will blame them till the end of the world if their job is supposed to entail treating everyone equally.

1 more time: there is not 1 single game in which players have any level of control over GMs and this shouldn't be the first one.

StarCraft. And  I bet there's more. Basically, every competitive game has a system of complaints and appeal. You're lying. Get out.

I refuse to believe that there are GMs who are regularly harassing players from certain factions or just players in general.
Either you are paranoid or you have been punished for bad behavior.
Either way it's not a reason for such extreme measures.
I'm pretty sure if devs where under the impression the GMs are doing a bad job, they would have done something about it already.

I refuse to believe you have a functional brain. Actually, saying that is on equal footing with what you've said when it comes to probability.

Coming back to your points 1 more time:
1. Bad idea for a variety of reasons. GM logs should only be available to other GMs and to devs. Add a line to player logs when devs do certain actions to their accounts like teleporting, adding/removing/altering items, skin, etc. If players want to report GM behavior they need to add the logs and in the logs should be a time stamp of the in game time. No time stamp means the thread is moved to junk.

You seem to be quite slow, so I'll explain. The devs said no to public logs and yes to non-public logs, so we need to choose who is going to read them.

2. As mentioned already, virtually impossible.

About fucking time you noticed, Sherlock. But we're not talking about that right now.

3. This suggest there's a large amount of complaints about GM abuse and something is seriously wrong. i doubt that as there would be much more complaints about GM action than there are now. So far I've seen nothing more than a bunch of people whining about things they think happened.
Having 1 person from each major gang be part of this? No way. As I said before, bad behavior, for instance by your gang, should not be rewarded. If this is the path devs want to take, they should take an experienced player who doesn't have ties with GMs and major gangs. I'm sure there are few around. Hopefully 1 of them is willing in case devs want to do this.

Please elaborate. Because as far as I remember spawning unbiased people is not possible irl. But hey, you seem to be supporting corruption since the beginning, so why do I even bother asking?

4. A clear set of rules is okay, making things outside it unpunishable is an open invitation to using exploits (adding a rule about not using exploits won't change that).
Most important rule: behave and respect other people. If people follow this one up, most of the problems on the server would be gone.

Yes, yes, love and peace and weed and whatnot. Christ. Are you really that naive?

And no, the rules have to be very specific, else there's no point in making them. If an exploit appears that the devs don't want to see used, they can just edit the ruleset.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 11:46:25 am by Nice_Boat »
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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm »

As I stated in some thread before, even those beta-testers, who are just so-called exploiters, cheaters and jerks (like pozzo or someone would say), help in developing this game, just by using those exploits/cheats/other stuff. The more they use it, the more important is to fix it.

If they would be helping with developing the game, they would report those exploits and cheats instead of using them till devs are made aware of them.


This thread was about X. People Started talking Y. I said it wasn't constructive. Simple logics. Maybe it works different on ET servers, but hey, it's like that everywhere else, so please adapt.
You haven't been too constructive here either. Even your reply I'm replying too right now shows you have a problem with discussing things.

Arguments like...? Because the only arguments against I've seen up to this point are "you're an asshole" and "GMs are always right".
Most arguments by you fall in the same "you're an asshole" category.

Oh but I will blame them till the end of the world if their job is supposed to entail treating everyone equally.
Except for your word, I haven't seen anything which actually suggest they don't.

StarCraft. And  I bet there's more. Basically, every competitive game has a system of complaints and appeal. You're lying. Get out.
A system of complaints and appeal is something different than a system which give players a level of control over GMs.
So it's not me who's lying, it's you.


I refuse to believe you have a functional brain. Actually, saying that is on equal footing with what you've said when it comes to probability.

You seem to be quite slow, so I'll explain. The devs said no to public logs and yes to non-public logs, so we need to choose who is going to read them.

About fucking time you noticed, Sherlock. But we're not talking about that right now.

Nice constructive comments. Keep is going.
As for opening logs to even a few players, enough comments against it have been made.

Please elaborate. Because as far as I remember spawning unbiased people is not possible irl. But hey, you seem to be supporting corruption since the beginning, so why do I even bother asking?
Exactly the reason we shouldn't be picking people from the large factions as they'll most likely be less objective than someone who isn't allied to 1 of them or to GMs.
My whole reason for being against this crap is actually to prevent corruption or if there's any to stop it from spreading.
To put it in words you understand: I have absolutely no faith in giving responsibilities to people who have proven they can't handle them.
If you can't even show some manners in your communications in this thread, how should we expect you to have them if you're given responsibility?

Yes, yes, love and peace and weed and whatnot. Christ. Are you really that naive?

And no, the rules have to be very specific, else there's no point in making them. If an exploit appears that the devs don't want to see used, they can just edit the ruleset.

I think I've shown several times and very clearly I'm not naive enough to think you and the likes of you can handle certain responsibilities.
Specific rules means lots of situations will not be in the rules thus opening the door very wide for exploits.
Editing the ruleset means you're always 1 step behind and it still leaves the door open for exceptions.
Using exploits, cheats and hack should simply be prohibited as it's already.
Something that's normal in competitive games.
No need to explicitely name specific cheats, exploits and hacks.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm »

You haven't been too constructive here either. Even your reply I'm replying too right now shows you have a problem with discussing things.
Most arguments by you fall in the same "you're an asshole" category.
Except for your word, I haven't seen anything which actually suggest they don't.

So yeah, I pointed out that the system allows for GM abuse, supported it with an undisputable occurrence from the past (Reconite) and said we need watchdogs to prevent this which nobody denied and every and each of my opponents here didn't even take up, but of course that was of the "you're an asshole" category. Keep on trolling.

A system of complaints and appeal is something different than a system which give players a level of control over GMs.
So it's not me who's lying, it's you.

Do I need to quote myself here? Nobody's talking player control anymore since Solar's post.

As for opening logs to even a few players, enough comments against it have been made.

Actually there were none whatsoever except "GMs are always right". Oh, and Solar sort of authorized it.

Exactly the reason we shouldn't be picking people from the large factions as they'll most likely be less objective than someone who isn't allied to 1 of them or to GMs.

That's why we need to pick a few with conflicting interests and sympathies so that they can cover it all. Not like I didn't mention that a few pages ago.

The rest of your post goes more or less like
Herp Derp

... to which I kindly reply with:
Quote from: Nice_Boat
Durrrr

Seriously, you keep coming with a pretence of serious discussion, yet you prove again and again you either didn't read the entire thread or disregard the other side's arguments, which makes you a troll, which makes this post probably the last time I replied to you.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 12:58:44 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2010, 01:02:29 pm »

So yeah, I pointed out that the system allows for GM abuse, supported it with an undisputable occurrence from the past (Reconite) and said we need watchdogs to prevent this which nobody denied and every and each of my opponents here didn't even take up, but of course that was of the "you're an asshole" category. Keep on trolling.
Don't accuse others of trolling while you're the biggest throll in this thread.
The situation with Reconite (I assume happened before I started playing) has been solved.
Case closed, move on.
GMs have certain powers, the only way to prevent GMs from abusing them is to remove all GMs.
Sure some measures can be taking to lower the risk of abusive behavior, but completely preventing it is impossible.
Abuse can only be dealt with during or after it occured.

Do I have to quote myself here? Nobody's talking player control anymore since Solar's post.
I might be misunderstanding your posts here, but you're still suggesting it between the lines.

Actually there were none whatsoever except "GMs are always right". Oh, and Solar sort of authorized it.
Arguments have been made, but as I said in an earlier reply, you chose to ignore them instead of discussing them.

That's why we need to pick a few with conflicting interests and sympathies so that they can cover it all. Not like I didn't mention that a few pages ago.
Not like arguments, amongst others by me, against that haven't been made on the same pages
Again, better pick 1 who's above the parties with conflicting interests.

The rest of your posts goes more or less like
... to which I kindly reply with:

Again, very constructive dialog and trolling there by you.
Keep it up.


Seriously, you keep coming with a pretence of serious discussion, yet you prove again and again you either didn't read the entire thread or disregard the other side's arguments, which makes you a troll, which makes this post probably the last time I replied to you.

I did read the entire thread, let it be an example to you.
One more time, YOU are the one disregarding other people's arguments by calling them none constructive.
Even if I would by trolling in this thread, you are outdoing me easily.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #115 on: July 20, 2010, 01:10:14 pm »

Don't accuse others of trolling while you're the biggest throll in this thread.
The situation with Reconite (I assume happened before I started playing) has been solved.
Case closed, move on.
GMs have certain powers, the only way to prevent GMs from abusing them is to remove all GMs.
Sure some measures can be taking to lower the risk of abusive behavior, but completely preventing it is impossible.

Reaction time was ridiculously long because there's no mechanisms whatsoever in place to detect such misbehaviour... because people like you are protesting against it. Care to explain what exactly is going to hurt you if a few people were checking whether GMs are abusing or not? You'd gain the right to appeal any decision they make and lose nothing. In fact, the community as a whole would only gain from that.

I might be misunderstanding your posts here, but you're still suggesting it between the lines.

No, and once again - the Devs approve of what I proposed when it comes to a single entity overwatching GMs. They disallow general access to logs, that's all.

Arguments have been made, but as I said in an earlier reply, you chose to ignore them instead of discussing them.

So you sure are capable of making a summary of this thread with arguments brought up by either side? It'd be fun to read I bet.

Again, better pick 1 who's above the parties with conflicting interests.

Care to name such a person? Because I've been here for a long time and I honestly can't aside from the Dev-team, which sadly can't and shouldn't be bothered with such issues.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 01:43:26 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #116 on: July 20, 2010, 03:35:12 pm »

A system of complaints and appeal is something different than a system which give players a level of control over GMs.
Was such system (which gives players a level of control over GMs) suggested here so far?

skejwen

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #117 on: July 20, 2010, 04:07:12 pm »

Well - in fact we should abandon GM function as it seems that its not necessary at all :)
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"Moo-OooooOO! MoMoo.. MmmmoOoo.. Moo!", translate from brahmin to English: "Two things are infinite - brahmin shit and human stupidity! - Brahminstein"
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2010, 04:09:46 pm »

Does anyone even read those back and forth post dissections?

Quote
You are a dick

No you're a dick.

Quote
You're an even bigger dick

Oh okay I guess I never saw it that way
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Shangalar

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Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #119 on: July 20, 2010, 04:48:51 pm »

I never saw happy end in a discussion where everyone is quoting the other and camping his position.
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