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[Nice_Boat]

So this is what you are aiming for? No way this would ever happen, as 1) no one in the team is really interested in gang issues at all, it just isn't important who is a "leader" of one "big gang". Also, this would lead to ENDLESS discussions, forum would be drownend in an infinite spamming wave. Seriously, if such thing would happen, I wouldn't "waste" my time here anymore, as I would have to click on "delete" every few minutes. Bad idea.

This is already happening in a much worse way than I proposed because one of the groups is overrepresented. And what do you mean by saying "that's what I'm aiming for"? I'm aiming for a fair environment, with everyone watching everyone else. It's called checks and balances and is widely considered to be a good thing. Also, the thing with the team being uninterested makes me raise my brow a bit - this game revolves around TC, and not a single one of you is interested in the groups that take part? That's a good one, I'll remember it the next time the uninterested Samira bans entire BBS from IRC because one person trolled, or uninterested Izual prepares a training camp for his folks or brings his silly little army to fight us in an unprotected area.

Moreover, I find it quite curious that the only gang-related people who have something against controlling GM actions at all are members of the same group that's overrepresented in the GM crowd. Am I being paranoid again? Let's check some other threads... oooh, it's always the same. Sorry, I'm not.

Also, I find your remark about forum floods being laughable, because (and I don't know how many times I've written it already) the system would be 'suspected abuse' -> send a PM/notification to your watchdog -> watchdog assesess the notification -> watchdog notifies the Devs. Going outside this procedure would be insta-Junk. Absolutely no drama, no discussions etc. And the watchdog can't even abuse anything - if he sends too many bullshit notifications, the Devs can just sack him and appoint someone else.

[Winston Wolf]

The GMs should see each others logs and report to the developers if they find something suspicious. The community is way to immature to do that. Besides I don't see a problem at being at the same voice server with a random faction. If I'd become a GM I'd still hang around with my people because I play with them since months. Which advantage should a GM have in helping another faction? (I don't mean spawning a barrel or other dinky things...) You gain nothing expect the risk to get caught by someone which would cause that the whole community hates you. Why should a GM punish an innocent player who barely gets his 10 hides together? I play this game since 15th August 2009 and I never had problems with a GM or a developer because I just don't do things like suicide bombing, exploiting or cheating. But it's always the same at every game. The punished one never made a mistake.  

[Pozzo]

Moreover, I find it quite curious that the only gang-related people who have something against controlling GM actions at all are members of the same group that's overrepresented in the GM crowd. Am I being paranoid again? Let's check some other threads... oooh, it's always the same. Sorry, I'm not.

No there is a simple explication :
Rogues/MashForce/Yuras and some others use to act as jerks since the beginning of the game (insults, cheat, bug exploit, etc.).I am currently in BH during TC and instead of waiting and playing, Mash Force team insult people by shouting and treating us as idiots or other things. Maybe it is arrogant but we don't act like this. This is the difference between you and us. We respect people and we respect GMs so maybe they are cool with us and not with you and we defend them because we don't to see idiots like you insulting them or having the last word

[Nice_Boat]

No there is a simple explication :
Rogues/MashForce/Yuras and some others use to act as jerks since the beginning of the game (insults, cheat, bug exploit, etc.).I am currently in BH during TC and instead of waiting and playing, Mash Force team insult people by shouting and treating us as idiots or other things. Maybe it is arrogant but we don't act like this. This is the difference between you and us. We respect people and we respect GMs so maybe they are cool with us and not with you and we defend them because we don't to see idiots like you insulting them

Is insulting people prohibited? No, racial comments are. As long as there's no n-words flying around GMs have no business there unless the devs say otherwise. Right now I'd like to thank you for proving my point and I hope you don't have anything against each group having a fair representation for a change.

Oh and this:

We respect people

idiots like you

... is absolutely delicious, especially since I'm not logged in atm. So it's ok when you insult people, but it's wrong once someone else does? Somehow, it fits my opinion of you perfectly. Furthermore, this thread would be surprisingly devoid of trolls if you and your kind didn't try to take the discussion to the personal level, so begone already or learn some manners.

[Pozzo]

Is insulting people prohibited? No, racial comments are. As long as there's no n-words flying around GMs have no business there unless the devs say otherwise. Right now I'd like to thank you for proving my point and I hope you don't have anything against each group having a fair representation for a change.

It is not prohibited, yes. But if you act like this don't be surprised that nobody like you

... is absolutely delicious, especially since I'm not logged in atm.

Maybe you didn't noticed but you are not the entire world, Nice Boat. I know this is hard for you to understand but you are just a player like others. Anyway, in english "you" can mean just you or a group of people

[Nice_Boat]

It is not prohibited, yes. But if you act like this don't be surprised that nobody like you

Actually, quite a few people like me, GMs included. Furthermore, I don't think that GMs should follow their personal tastes and sympathies when doing their job. When they log in on their GM account, they should follow the guidelines and treat everyone equally. What you're doing is providing more corroborating evidence that they don't, so once again - thank you for doing that.

Maybe you didn't noticed but you are not the entire world, Nice Boat. I know this is hard for you to understand but you are just a player like others. Anyway, in english "you" can mean just you or a group of people

I know I'm not, what does it have to do with this thread? Oh, and in English (capital letter here) "you" when referring to a group of people means the person you are talking to (in this case me) and the buddies of the aforementioned individual. So yeah, you insulted me for no reason and you keep on trolling.

[Pozzo]

Actually, quite a few people like me, GMs included. Furthermore, I don't think that GMs should follow their personal tastes and sympathies when doing their job. When they log in on their GM account, they should follow the guidelines and treat everyone equally. What you're doing is providing more corroborating evidence that they don't, so once again - thank you for doing that.

Yes, GMs ar humans, shame on them.
But words I say are not evidence, or maybe you think my words are God words. I'am flattered
What I wanted to point is : you feel paranoiac not because GMs act against you but just because they don't like you. You feel that they don't like you so you become paranoiac. This is not evidence this is psychology.

[Nice_Boat]

Yes, GMs ar humans, shame on them.
But words I say are not evidence, or maybe you think my words are God words. I'am flattered

You say that the GMs your group are affiliated with are not impartial, and you are an important member of this group so whatever you say about stuff like that carries quite a heavy weight. Should have kept your mouth shut, now it's too late.

What I wanted to point is : you feel paranoiac not because GMs act against you but just because they don't like you. You feel that they don't like you so you become paranoiac. This is not evidence this is psychology.

No. I feel "paranoiac" because I, along with people known to me, am being harassed by GMs from time to time for no legitimate reason, and I see inexplainable things happening around me on occasions (which suddenly become surprisingly obvious if you consider GM involvement). Personal feelings between me and certain GMs have nothing to do with this, as everything I say here is based on facts. On the other hand you are trying to bring emotions to the table acting as if arguments based on emotions had the same weight as the ones based on facts. They don't. Please stop derailing this thread talking about me, my relationships with other people, my psychological states and who you or your GMs like or dislike, because it's absolutely unneeded and irrelevant.

Right now, 3 issues need to be discussed:
#1 - would access to GM logs for GMs and the three "watchdogs" be disagreeable with anyone?
EDIT, because I forgot:
- whenever a GM performs an action related to a player character, the aforementioned player receives a text message what exactly was changed, who did it and what the effect is.
#3 - would you agree to have 3 watchdogs each from one of the groups of the big three? I don't see how we could choose one and the selection should be balanced to keep things fair, so perhaps someone could offer another criteria if the ones I proposed aren't acceptable?
#4 - mostly everyone agrees it's okay, so should the development of server rules get its separate thread or should it be left to Devs and GMs?

... let's focus on that.

[Pozzo]

You say that the GMs your group are affiliated with are not impartial, and you are an important member of this group so whatever you say about stuff like that carries quite a heavy weight. Should have kept your mouth shut, now it's too late.

Nobody is impartial. Maybe they don't like you and they like us. But also they may like other people I don't know in this game.
I have never seen Izual for a month. Shangalar belongs to an ennemy team (TCB) and we fight against this team all day long so I don't know why he would help my team. And you said by yourself that Jovanka doesn't like PKs like your team but.... Jovanka is not from my team. So ?

No. I feel "paranoiac" because I, along with people known to me, am being harassed by GMs from time to time for no legitimate reason, and I see inexplainable things happening around me on occasions (which suddenly become surprisingly obvious if you consider GM involvement). Personal feelings between me and certain GMs have nothing to do with this, as everything I say here is based on facts. On the other hand you are trying to bring emotions to the table acting as if arguments based on emotions had the same weight as the ones based on facts. They don't. Please stop derailing this thread talking about me, my relationships with other people, my psychological states and who you or your GMs like or dislike, because it's absolutely unneeded and irrelevant.

I don't see any fact in this thread, only accusations and emotions 

[Nice_Boat]

Nobody is impartial.

Right. The problem starts when people who should be are not even trying. That's why I think that having controllers with different gang backgrounds is going to work in a very reliable, impossible to exploit way - each one of them will be biased in a specific direction, and with three of them everything will be covered and no abuse of GM power will be possible.

I don't see any fact in this thread, only accusations and emotions  

Troll harder. This thread would be relevant even if there were no instances of GM abuse at all, because the system as it stands allows it. If you didn't notice, we're trying to reach a consensus here as to what should be done to eliminate such a possibility.

[kraskish]

I admire all of your effort Nice_Boat but to be honest. I am only for 4 or maybe 3 when Fonline will grow large (not expecting it though)

Its a cliche game and I dont see a point of making such sofisticated methods to stalk volunteer GMs. If they were paid, why not.

[RJ]

Watchdogs? Players from PvP alliances where game rules (if you or your friends forgot - HERE) are being abused on almost every step should control if GMs aren't abusing? Sounds like some sort of hillarious joke to me.

Nice Boat, don't forget that not everyone have problems with GMs as most of abuse stories have no proofs of ever happening (your story with dynamite - I am not going belive in it as Trollgore is eyewitness) or they are manipulated by people who are frequently breaking game rules. I already seen many funny situations with players yelling "ABUSE" that made trust GMs more and see no reason to control them.
Just because you are paranoid and few others are yell-a-lot morons I won't agree with any of you propositions to control GMs.

I wouldn't mind list of actions that GMs can or not perform but I think it will be just a tool to entirely remove GMs influence in game word. I personally think it's bad if GMs would be limited by anything. Without GMs interfering into game world it would look only more bland (it's already limited by lack of content). Of course you won't agree with me as you are victim of abuse in non-commercial game that you take very seriously.

[Nice_Boat]

Watchdogs? Players from PvP alliances where game rules (if you or your friends forgot - HERE) are being abused on almost every step should control if GMs aren't abusing? Sounds like some sort of hillarious joke to me.

Player abuse is not the subject here and actually has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Moreover, the Devs must think it's not a hilarious joke if they agreed to appointing me for the function if the community agrees. Now, I'm a man of compromise, so I won't even propose such a thing and I don't think it'd be right, but I think that all the gangs could agree to a solution in which they all have one man inside. And honestly, even if we all were the greatest cheaters in gaming history, having us watch each other would amount to what we all ultimately want - no abuse, no exploits, everything fair and square.

Nice Boat, don't forget that not everyone have problems with GMs as most of abuse stories have no proofs of ever happening (your story with dynamite - I am not going belive in it as Trollgore is eyewitness) or they are manipulated by people who are frequently breaking game rules. I already seen many funny situations with players yelling "ABUSE" that made trust GMs more and see no reason to control them.
Just because you are paranoid and few others are yell-a-lot morons I won't agree with any of you propositions to control GMs.

What more can I say? Even if we assume there's no problem now, it might appear later on in the future. Having mechanics to counter that in place before it happens would be called good planning, no?

I wouldn't mind list of actions that GMs can or not perform but I think it will be just a tool to entirely remove GMs influence in game word.

Easily obtainable. Doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion - and honestly, if you don't know or think it's secret, please stay clear of this thread, thank you.

I personally think it's bad if GMs would be limited by anything. Without GMs interfering into game world it would look only more bland (it's already limited by lack of content). Of course you won't agree with me as you are victim of abuse in non-commercial game that you take very seriously.

I'm not that serious, it's just that I take this game on a competitive level because it doesn't really offer much more after you play it for a while. Many people with a few months of experience feel the same, and sustaining a situation in which GMs can act on a whim without any supervision is ultimately going to scare them away. Saying that it's a non-commercial game changes nothing - being non-commercial doesn't mean it has to be bad and use bad solutions when it comes to this aspect. Furthermore, the Devs don't have anything against this idea - for their own reasons (and I'm quite sure they're well founded) they don't want the logs to be made public, that's all.

[Kilgore]

Nice Boat, don't forget that not everyone have problems with GMs as most of abuse stories have no proofs of ever happening (your story with dynamite - I am not going belive in it as Trollgore is eyewitness) or they are manipulated by people who are frequently breaking game rules. I already seen many funny situations with players yelling "ABUSE" that made trust GMs more and see no reason to control them.
Just because you are paranoid and few others are yell-a-lot morons I won't agree with any of you propositions to control GMs.

Well, RedJerk, are most of these situations coming from your friends from RDA, when you're with them on their Mumble?  
Btw nice trolling for one of the moderators of Polish community subforum. Congrats

[Surf]

If you keep spamming gang-related stuff and insults which has nothing to do with this thread I lock it.
So, please behave a bit.