fodev.net
15.08.2009 - 23.06.2013
"Wasteland is harsh"
Home Forum Help Login Register
  • November 17, 2024, 03:40:10 pm
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Play WikiBoy BugTracker Developer's blog
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10

Author Topic: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent  (Read 20131 times)

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
  • Offline
GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« on: July 18, 2010, 03:50:35 pm »

This discussion originated on the Polish sub-forum (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=6885.0). Strangely enough, the ideas and reflexions brought up there surprisingly were met with acceptance of virtually everyone involved, with personal feuds and disagreements being cast aside. It made me hope that maybe, if such a level of understanding could be reached here, in the English part, a solution agreeable for everyone could be reached - so I undertook to take it here and start a thread describing our cause.

Now I understand that taking up this issue may cause unnecessary emotions and grief, so I'd like to start with a little disclaimer.
It is not the purpose of this thread to start a witch hunt or, for the matter of the fact declare anyone guilty or seek retribution. What's done is done, the past should be left behind.
It is not the purpose of this thread to start a forum gang war. The way I see it, everyone is going to benefit and the only people that possibly could have anything against this idea have some dirt on their hands.
It is not the puprpose of this thread to start a crusade against the GMs in general. The way I see it, they could benefit greatly from introducing the mechanics I'm about to propose or a functional replacement for them since their credibility would be significantly raised.

After this longish, but necessary introduction I'd like to outline the problem and offer a possible solution.

THE PROBLEM

Basically, the problem is the complete lack of transparency when it comes to GM actions. I'm not talking about their powers in general, but the impossibility of finding out who did what at times. There's also an obvious problem when it comes to the course of action some of these people take which at times is puzzling to say the least.

The first part of the problem is manifested by actions harmful to the players impossible to explain by anything aside from GM intervention. Such actions include spontaneous teleportation, sneak item theft 1 hex away from char, NPCs reacting in ways beyond their AI routine, spawning hostile NPCs, slaps for large ammounts of - AP, players having information they could not possibly have otherwise (for example instantly recognizing a new character as a person's alt) etc. Most of us have seen something like that at least once and while admittedly, it tends be funny at times, some of those actions were clearly unprovoked and made with malicious intent. While some of these actions could be explained by unidentified bugs, the rate of occurence and the sense of purpose prevalent in some situations is enough to make quite a lot of people suspicious and demanding explanation.

Now, I do understand that one can live with that, but along with the almighty GM sneak it opens up a new world of paranoia and fear for the gangs recognized as powerful on this server. The line of reasoning is simple and impossible to rebuff - if there are GMs supporting some players while combating others with silly things like that, how can a player be sure that his faction is not being spied on during TC hours or in their base? This issue is further aggravated by the irrefutable fact that there are screenshots of GMs being on a gang mumble. Yes, there is no solid proof, but there is enough reasonable suspicion and lack of trust to seek a solution.

As to the second part of the problem - some GMs seem to follow an agenda well outside the "official" server rules. They make rules on the fly: "no camping here", "no caravan traps of any kind", "no swearing" (and I do mean swearing, without any racial slurrs involved) are possibly the most common ones. Furthermore, they tend to follow their sympathies and antipathies from the time before they were GMs, with quite a few gangs having their own "angry God"... who happens to be angry even when they don't really sin. Again, it's very hard to present such instances of abuse with reasonable ammount of proof because screenshots are always out of context and can be edited, and in the end it all comes down to GM's word against the player's word.

Last, but not least, there's an Orwellian model of the appeal system at work, not only in the game, but also on IRC. You think a GM did something wrong? Of course you could appeal... to him. Of course if you know who and where to ask and your case is severe enough, you could get your case resolved, but for obvious reasons doing things this way is next to impossible for either new or generally unliked players. Even worse, questioning a GM, even if one has a reasonable point, quite often leads to airstrikes, IRC bans and threadlocks being employed, especially if the said GM is looking like losing the argument. I hope I don't have to explain how such a system is simply wrong and doesn't make the game player-friendly.

And yeah, I know wasteland is harsh, but the point of this thread is that it should be equally harsh to everyone.

THE RESULTS OF HOW THINGS ARE

The issue of the Devs allowing GMs to be malicious to other players without provocation is, I hope, out of the question, so I won't even bring this it under discussion here assuming such actions are strictly prohibited.

In the state of affairs we have, nobody wins aside from the few unidentified egomaniacs and cheaters that caused the emergence of this thread. The consequences of letting them continue carrying on the way they were are as follows:
- the playerbase obviously loses, being deprived of a fair gaming environment;
- the fair GMs lose because they lose respect as a group and people start treating all GMs as enemies, threat etc., avoiding them and making their job harder;
- the Devs lose with the playerbase, risking the failure of their project (nobody enjoys playing rigged games) and losing the most important betatesters (the ones who are aware of this situation and most prone to being upset by it are the ones most experienced a most likely to find bugs).

Furthermore, having such a morally ambiguous opposition between the GMs and players encourages cheating on the part of the players, with two simple psychological mechanisms working for it: "if they are supposed to enforce the law and set the standards and they cheat, why can't I?" and "they cheated me out of X and punished me for no reason, I have to cheat to compensate".

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

I suggest one, or a combination of the following measures to be introduced to change this situation and make GM actions transparent:

1. Makes the logs of GM actions available to all players on a new, separate forum sub-board. Each GM would have his own thread, the logs would appear with a 24 hour lag to avoid leaking any information sensitive to their current work. This sub-board would be impossible to moderate by anyone except the devteam. The logs should be created via a script that'd filter through the general server log to work around the high ammount of micromanagement doing it manually would entice. People could just check any suspicious situations and report any instances of abuse to the devs. The logs would be automatically removed after a sensible preset ammount of time to conserve server space if necessary.

2. Internet poker inspired solution. Make similiar a board, with screenshots instead of logs. The screenshots would be made at random, quite short intervals, unknown to the GMs and uploaded to a relevant section with a timestamp (imaged linked instead of being pasted into the board to make it more streamlined). If there's a suspicion of abuse, the player would check the time and check the relevant screenshots. Screenshots would be automatically removed after a sensible, preset ammount of time to conserve server space.

3. Make a person with a strong sense of justice from outside the GM and player groups responsible for assessing the complaints against GM and/or moderator abuse to avoid the aforementioned people being able to be judges in their own cause.

4. Make an all-inclusive list of actions prohibited to be performed in-game. That means that any actions outside the list are allowed and can not be punished by any GMs.

All of these suggestions except #2 would be quite easy to implement and would in my opinion greatly increase the quality, efficiency and transparency of GM work, as well as giving the community some sort of real control over their behaviour and a good, reliable tool of fighting pathology whenever it shows its ugly head.

CLOSING REMARKS

I strongly urge GMs to respond to this thread without hostility or the usual authoritarian attitude, because none of these suggestions was brought up with hurting you in mind. In fact, I don't see how any reasonable, upright member of the community concerned with the future of this great project have anything against introducing this sort of checks and balances to the GM trade. I'd also like the GMs to refrain from moderating in this thread, as it may and most probably will bring accusations of dishonesty to the table and start a flame - and when dealing with such a serious (and possibly gamebreaking) threat/issue, we should do all in our power to avoid this. There's enough people with moderator powers who are not GMs to keep this one thread civilized. For the same reasons, I urge players who feel hurt by any GM actions to refrain from acting overtly emotional and from pointing fingers or turning this thread into some sort of a lynching party. Of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't post instances of GM abuse if you have solid proof, I'm just asking that should you do so, act in a civilized manner.

Finally, should anyone feel threatened by this thread and think it'd be a good idea to close or junk it - it's been authorised by Ghosthack, so I think that filling in a letter of resignation instead would be much simpler and less dramatic.

And once again - do NOT troll or flame here.
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2010, 04:07:48 pm »

And yeah, I know wasteland is harsh, but the point of this thread is that it should be equally harsh to everyone.

 ::)
Logged

JovankaB

  • Guest
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2010, 04:27:15 pm »

OK, I will try to restrain myself from my usual hostile and authoritarian attitude...

I like points 3 and 4.

I don't like points 1 and 2, especially 1 because it could give players to much info about methods and time when GMs detect cheats, exploits etc. It wouldn't be good for anyone but cheaters. Also some investigations are longer than 1 day. And I don't really think devs would like to be spammed 100 times / day with "I suspect GM of someting!" from some paranoid players, but I could be wrong... Besides some players might want discretion when talking to a GM on server, not everyone knows IRC, there can be some private info in logs/screens or info concerning other players not intended to be seen by public. At the same time it doesn't prevent at all some possible "abuses" like spying during TC for some team.

As a compromise for log access I think GMs should have access to commands logs of other GMs, so we could control each other. Right now we don't have it. Believe me or not, but I doubt any GM wants abusers and cheaters in the team (I don't think there are any in the moment, but as always, some players know better).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 04:40:03 pm by JovankaB »
Logged

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2010, 04:40:38 pm »

OK, I will try to restrain myself from my usual hostile and authoritarian attitude...

I like points 3 and 4.

I don't like points 1 and 2, especially 1 because it could give players to much info about methods and time when GMs detect cheats, exploits etc. It wouldn't be good for anyone but cheaters. Also some investigations are longer than 1 day. Besides some players might want discretion when talking to a GM on server, not everyone knows IRC, there can be some private info in logs/screens or info concerning other players not intended to be seen by public, and GMs couldn't talk in game about things which should simply remain secret. At the same time it doesn't prevent at all some possible "abuses" like spying during TC for some team.

As a compromise for log access I think GMs should have access to logs of other GMs, so we could control each other. Right now we don't have it.

Sensitive information, like text typed when communicating with another player could be automatically censored. It's enough to see that communication was made to have some sort of knowledge about what's going on without infringing the privacy of any party involved. If an official investigation is launched, then of course full logs would be used. Same with other sensitive material, if there's anything top secret going on behind the scenes. The "disclosure lag" could be extended to one week to protect your investigations, it doesn't really matter as long as the public has access to what's been going on.

As for spying during TC - of course it doesn't prevent that, but it provides corroborative evidence and makes it look bad for the GM doing that - so yeah, he's standing there all the time when the X gang is fighting and doesn't provide any videos? Probably should look into him a bit.

Of course, allowing you to cross check your activities is still way better than no control at all, so I'd be happy with that, but not entirely satisfied.

Believe me or not, but I doubt any GM wants abusers and cheaters in the team (I don't think there are any in the moment, but as always, some players know better).

It's just an act of faith, and I don't think a system based on acts of faith alone is destined to be efficient or last long. I myself am a man of little faith and I base my views on what I see. And what I see is enough anecdotal evidence floating around to think that something wrong is going on. Basically, we're riding the same boat here ( ;D), with different attitudes. You believe and that's enough for you, I want to know - because without knowing, I can't fully enjoy this game.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 04:52:01 pm by Nice_Boat »
Logged

Surf

  • Moderator
  • это моё.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 04:53:38 pm »


As for spying during TC - of course it doesn't prevent that, but it provides corroborative evidence and makes it look bad for the GM doing that - so yeah, he's standing there all the time when the X gang is fighting and doesn't provide any videos? Probably should look into him a bit.


Spying? I don't know how the others are doing this, but sometimes I just go there to watch it. I don't have reasons "to spy" someone or so. Sometimes it's good just seeing some people fight. ;) Also, no need to video just some random TC battle I watch while eating my lunch, just to have something to watch.

As for the rest: well, I wouldn't mind. It's not that our actions aren't logged already. I wouldn't matter seeing my logs somewhere here, but I doubt it's needed as it will only lead to more unneeded work. It's not just that easy censoring some sensitive information via a script, every log would need to be read/edited by hand everytime and it's tedious.
Besides this, it's not really the players job to overwatch the GMs, others are doing it already.

As I can see this here, @ this "GMs spying for their respective gang at others peoples bases" etc I can't tell. I never was part of a bigger gang and I doubt I will ever be. So I'm not really biased and don't even see a reason to "spy" in TC fights etc, it's not that players couldn't do that too when they are sneaky etc. But - I doubt other GMs are doing this too. As you say for yourself, Nice_Boat, there are no clear evicendences for such actions. Therefore it looks for me like the other ~20 threads we already have: "GM abuse" but with no evidence, just out of general paranoia.


EDIT: Though I like point 4 in your post.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 04:57:30 pm by Surf Solar »
Logged

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 05:07:56 pm »

Spying? I don't know how the others are doing this, but sometimes I just go there to watch it. I don't have reasons "to spy" someone or so. Sometimes it's good just seeing some people fight. ;) Also, no need to video just some random TC battle I watch while eating my lunch, just to have something to watch.

Yeah, but when a GM affiliated with a gang does that it becomes something in a different league... especially if he posts a screenshot with his party on mumble in another thread.

As for the rest: well, I wouldn't mind. It's not that our actions aren't logged already. I wouldn't matter seeing my logs somewhere here, but I doubt it's needed as it will only lead to more unneeded work. It's not just that easy censoring some sensitive information via a script, every log would need to be read/edited by hand everytime and it's tedious.
Besides this, it's not really the players job to overwatch the GMs, others are doing it already.

Well, I know they are. I also know that it's not really that streamlined. Given the fact that it takes a lot of time, I don't think that the devs could and should be bothered with investigating such issues. Players could provide them with evidence, and then  they could simply assess the situation. Players are the perfect watchdog simply because their resources when it comes to time are almost infinite compared with what the Devs or GMs have, and they really have a reason to care. I don't see how it can't be the 2238 society's job to overwatch its GM-police anyway. As for censoring sensitive information (in this case dialogue), come on. Is it that hard to have a script replacing the line "player x said hi" with "player x said **"? I don't know what format you're using, but it can't be that hard.

As I can see this here, @ this "GMs spying for their respective gang at others peoples bases" etc I can't tell. I never was part of a bigger gang and I doubt I will ever be. So I'm not really biased and don't even see a reason to "spy" in TC fights etc, it's not that players couldn't do that too when they are sneaky etc. But - I doubt other GMs are doing this too. As you say for yourself, Nice_Boat, there are no clear evicendences for such actions. Therefore it looks for me like the other ~20 threads we already have: "GM abuse" but with no evidence, just out of general paranoia.

Yeah, there is no clear evidence, but there are strong indications that it's happening. Actually, the only reason you didn't ever get hard evidence is because nobody is recording his game 24/7 and once you realise what happened it's already over. It's like this situation I've participated in with Kilgore going to bomb player X on a fresh char. Player X responds with saying "hi Kilgore" (he was lvl 1, starting gear and shit, straight from the first spawn location). Weird stuff, especially since Kilgore was talking Russian. Now, let's assume player X is clairvoyant. But it doesn't stop there. Kilgore goes to another location on the map, I give him armed dynamte by placing it on the ground. I move one hex away so that he could grab it. He tries, but dynamite disappears. It exploded 50 seconds later on the other side of the map. Now, that's a good sneaker, to avoid being noticed by two PCs and stealing something 1 hex away from them.

Of course that's rather silly, but it happened and it really makes me question the notion that all GMs see no reason in spying for a gang. And it certainly makes me way more paranoid than I usually am.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:19:22 pm by Nice_Boat »
Logged
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 05:39:11 pm »

You should Fraps TC fights like Izual and post them which would give hard evidence. This is all hearsay, we don't know if you are being biased from the past due to bad run-ins with GMs, or if the GMs themselves are acting in poor taste.

I'm sure this is because of when I think rejfyl claimed Cadiliac blew up his gun for swearing, but if a GM did this I'm sure it would've been logged.
Logged

Gatling

  • Violent Pacifist.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm »

- the playerbase obviously loses, being deprived of a fair gaming environment;
- the fair GMs lose because they lose respect as a group and people start treating all GMs as enemies, threat etc., avoiding them and making their job harder;

...

Furthermore, having such a morally ambiguous opposition between the GMs and players encourages cheating on the part of the players, with two simple psychological mechanisms working for it: "if they are supposed to enforce the law and set the standards and they cheat, why can't I?" and "they cheated me out of X and punished me for no reason, I have to cheat to compensate".

-The gaming environment is fair, paranoia only says that is not.  While certain things may have happened, this does Not change the overall gameplay, and if someone Does let something like this really bother them, they are dwelling considerably too much upon it.
-GMs will always lose respect as a group, because soon as someone says 'no' to something, they're being a bad booger about it.  And the fair GMs will not lose any respect on their own if they do things right, and the players who know them Will know this.  Despite my own hostile and often odd view of things, I still have managed to do GMly things without having someone fear-monger about me.

And no, paranoia is not a justifiable excuse to cheating. People will cheat Anyway, whether they feel jilted by a higher power, or not, just because people like to get ahead any possible way. 

However, I do agree with Jovanka in wanting the logs available to ourselves, as they are not at present.  One reason being to police ourselves, but also because with several people who are making decisions and rules, having access to them would make another GMs work considerably easier in understanding and dealing with situations down the the road which may have been caused by a previous decision. 

...Fear-mongering is the name of the game in this thread.  And I do not approve, despite what may have prompted its inception.
Logged
And now...
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."- Rorschach
"It's what people know about themselves inside... that makes them afraid." -The Stranger

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 06:21:01 pm »

-The gaming environment is fair, paranoia only says that is not.  While certain things may have happened, this does Not change the overall gameplay, and if someone Does let something like this really bother them, they are dwelling considerably too much upon it.

Oh, but things like destroying a legit caravan trap certainly change the overall gameplay and belong to the mildly-serious cathegory. Also, there was a certain GM who lost his powers because he tended to change the overall gameplay too much. So I hope we'll learn to agree to disagree on this one.

-GMs will always lose respect as a group, because soon as someone says 'no' to something, they're being a bad booger about it.  And the fair GMs will not lose any respect on their own if they do things right, and the players who know them Will know this.  Despite my own hostile and often odd view of things, I still have managed to do GMly things without having someone fear-monger about me.

You're wrong simply because there's no way of identifying the GM interacting with you at times, so the players can't really identify the ones that do things right and the ones that do things wrong.

And no, paranoia is not a justifiable excuse to cheating. People will cheat Anyway, whether they feel jilted by a higher power, or not, just because people like to get ahead any possible way.

It's not an excuse and I didn't present it as an excuse, but the fact remains it's a psychological enabler.  

...Fear-mongering is the name of the game in this thread.  And I do not approve, despite what may have prompted its inception.

If all that happens is fear-mongering, than why do you oppose making your activities public? If you don't do anything questionable, than certainly you should have nothing to fear, right? Especially since the information lag basically excludes the possibility of your current operations being jeopardized. Moreover, how can you be so sure about everyone in the GM team being fair, if your knowledge of their activities is very much limited?

And anyway, a system which allows paranoia setting in and nourishes it is bad and should be change. As I've said, there's basically no risk in transparency. Devs don't do secret special ops, they mostly do simple, repetitive work. If there are some procedures concerning cheat detection you'd rather have hidden from public view, they could always be censored from the logs as they're not really relevant to overwatching your actions.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 06:31:35 pm by Nice_Boat »
Logged

Crazy

  • Drugged Childkiller
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 06:38:51 pm »

Devs have the logs, I trust devs enough to be sure they won't let "GM abuse" happened. Also, when I see all the "GM ABUZ" thread and when I see that people who make these thread are wrong 95% of time, I don't think you have to bother with so much work to calm down a bit the paranoia.
In fact I find GMs far too gentle. It's a free game, if they find something reprehensible, it's their work to prevent it, even if it's not write in big letters in game rules. Publish the logs would just make players read every fucking line to find something to bother GM (and GM are humans, they do mistake, so they will find...). It will make them unconfortable and they will do a less effective work. So I don't think it's a so good idea.


"No rules about moderation. Enjoy your ban."
Logged
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk

Member of the Most Hated Faction
TTTLA, for Great Justice !

Gatling

  • Violent Pacifist.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 06:45:49 pm »

Just because I don't do anything illegal does not mean I also think that players think they have the right to dig their nose so deeply.  I would like to keep things fair, but that does not mean it has to include You in the process.  GMs are having to police players.  Criminals in real life often cry foul of the police in order to cover their own skins.  Letting the players into the knowledge of what we are doing is not something I approve of, but I DO approve and want to be able to police ourselves.  

Right now, player says so-and-so did this, can't really do anything, but if we could have those logs, another GM could simply look into it themselves and see what was said/done.  The only fear you should have during that would be that every single superior was corrupt and thus everyone covered everyone else.  I do not think this is the case, so the open-book policy you want is unneeded and unwarranted.

In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.
Logged
And now...
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."- Rorschach
"It's what people know about themselves inside... that makes them afraid." -The Stranger

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
  • Offline
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 07:11:10 pm »

Devs have the logs, I trust devs enough to be sure they won't let "GM abuse" happened. Also, when I see all the "GM ABUZ" thread and when I see that people who make these thread are wrong 95% of time, I don't think you have to bother with so much work to calm down a bit the paranoia.

Reconite. It happened. The dynamite thing. It happened. The caravan thing. It happened, with screenshots. Yet you still blow the "paranoia" whistle. Okay, I'm paranoid. Actually, quite a lot of people are paranoid right now. Why can't we have a simple script or two and a new official checking the complaints we might fill to quell our paranoia is beyond my understanding.

In fact I find GMs far too gentle. It's a free game, if they find something reprehensible, it's their work to prevent it, even if it's not write in big letters in game rules.

The moment Devs make it the official guideline for GMs I'm stopping playing, and I'm not going to be alone. I'm too old and too busy to be a plaything of a person that prevents or enforces something I'm not even sure exists beyond his or her imagination. I'm just happy even the GMs themselves probably wouldn't support it... at least officially.

Publish the logs would just make players read every fucking line to find something to bother GM (and GM are humans, they do mistake, so they will find...). It will make them unconfortable and they will do a less effective work. So I don't think it's a so good idea.

"No rules about moderation. Enjoy your ban."

It'd actually help if they were people of a character strong enough to withstand this immense pressure. Moreover, you may enjoy rules resemblining dictatorship, but I'd rather have rule of law instead, thank you.

Just because I don't do anything illegal does not mean I also think that players think they have the right to dig their nose so deeply.  I would like to keep things fair, but that does not mean it has to include You in the process.  GMs are having to police players.  Criminals in real life often cry foul of the police in order to cover their own skins.  Letting the players into the knowledge of what we are doing is not something I approve of, but I DO approve and want to be able to police ourselves.

In real life, people have a lot of control over their legal system. If they don't, it means they're living in a police state. I don't want to know how your utilities work in great detail and I don't care, but I want to know when were they used, for what reason and against whom. Your vision of good police work seems to be officer Anonymous shooting John Kowalsky to the head for reasons unknown and than saying that little Johnnie was behaving bad. My vision of good police work is officer John Wayne shooting John Kowalsky to the head  because he was holding a hostage after escaping arrest imposed by a court with the possibility of appeal and a press officer describing the incident in detail so that the society could know what happened and protest if something wasn't right.

Right now, player says so-and-so did this, can't really do anything, but if we could have those logs, another GM could simply look into it themselves and see what was said/done.  The only fear you should have during that would be that every single superior was corrupt and thus everyone covered everyone else.  I do not think this is the case, so the open-book policy you want is unneeded and unwarranted.

In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.

I'm more worried about the "don't bother me" attitude which sadly is pretty common whenever a player asks something complicated of you. And it's not even that your activities are that secret right now, because most big gangs have a good understanding of what you can and what you can't do, so there's no real reason to pretend you're the 2238 equivalent of CIA. Open book policy would solve all issues players could have with your actions. Crosschecking between GMs would be a step forward, but it'd still leave some space for speculation, corruption and human error/laziness.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 07:22:28 pm by Nice_Boat »
Logged

JovankaB

  • Guest
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 07:23:13 pm »

Reconite. It happened. The dynamite thing. It happened. The caravan thing. It happened, with screenshots. Yet you still blow the "paranoia" whistle. Okay, I'm paranoid.

First of all we don't know what happened with your dynamite. But I know there are bugs where items seem to disappear until you relog. It's much more probable than some GM watching your every step.

Reconite whatever he did, was fired and there is nothing to comment here.

So there is one more incident you talk about (probably dealing with some trollish caravan) that happened in a span of, how many - 8, 10 months?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 07:29:06 pm by JovankaB »
Logged
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 07:31:01 pm »

Solution:

This:
Quote
1. Makes the logs of GM actions available to all players on a new, separate forum sub-board. Each GM would have his own thread, the logs would appear with a 24 hour lag to avoid leaking any information sensitive to their current work. This sub-board would be impossible to moderate by anyone except the devteam. The logs should be created via a script that'd filter through the general server log to work around the high ammount of micromanagement doing it manually would entice. People could just check any suspicious situations and report any instances of abuse to the devs. The logs would be automatically removed after a sensible preset ammount of time to conserve server space if necessary.
But to make things much more simple, as raw textfiles uploaded/modified SOMEWHERE where everyone can read it.
There is no need to hide whole dialogues when you can just hide who said it (instead of %player_name%, let it be %player_id% - every char has something like that, afaik or something). As soon as someone feels there is an abuse of GMs rights, he'll make few screenshots anyway, so in conjunction with such logs everything would be clear enough and no "secret dialogues" and their authors would be uncovered.
Such logs would be published after 1 or 3 days, I don't think that more would be necessary. Also, it would allow people screaming "ABUSE ABUSE" to calm down and start seeing things normally.

AND this:
Quote
3. Make a person with a strong sense of justice from outside the GM and player groups responsible for assessing the complaints against GM and/or moderator abuse to avoid the aforementioned people being able to be judges in their own cause.

One person, but better two, or even three, would be enough. Let's call them XYZ. They don't need any special rights. They just need to know what GMs can do and what they are allowed to do.

So here's the procedure:
1. Player is the witness or the victim of someone with GM rights and the feel of "being a god". He thinks "meh it's ABUSE wtf I need to report it", so he reports what he saw to XYZ. Or he was just bored and read the log with GM actions, then he finds that GM X did nothing but stood in NCR all day and teleported random people to Glow without any reason. He reports it to XYZ (for example, via PM on forum).
2. XYZ reads the log and finds out that the player was wrong and poor GM X was totally innocent. So he replies: "sorry but it was X and all he did was absolutely right". But well, if he also finds out that GM X is a terrible abuser, he should consult it with others XYZ and then decide to report it to devs or not. Well, if there is only one XYZ, then he has to decide to report it or not on his own.
3. He writes a report to one of the devs if there is such a need, resulting from point 2.

Advantages:
+ devs don't get spammed about GM abuse
+ GMs can feel absolutely safe as long as they do their things right
+ players have the option to report wrong GM actions, instead of "PM the GM that banned/jailed/slapped/teleported you", which is in my opinion, ridiculous
+ XYZ isn't able to control GMs on his own
+ wrong GM actions that would be otherwise almost impossible to detect, would be detected and reported much easily
+ GMs would be forced to stop just playing with their powers (slapping, warping, killing NPCs, just spying) when they are only bored and out of other ideas - seriously, there is no need to enable your GM account when all you are planning to do is idling in NCR bazaar

Disadvantages:
- the biggest problem is to choose such a person, because it must be someone who is not a friend (real on just in game) of any active GMs, at the same time being someone who knows game a lot and also knows what GMs can do and what they can't do
- there will be much whining from GMs who are too used to being controlled only a bit
- XYZ would have a lot of work, especially in the beginning - but I don't think it's a big problem
- the possibility that if you choose wrong person, he'll just do nothing (because he's lazy, he doesn't like specific players, he likes specific GMs, he has no time)

Quote
In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.
Hey, but you are not the dev so you don't have any rights to say anything about what one can ask for and what one can't. Also, most GMs keep forgetting that GMs are for players and players aren't their property. Please take 3 mins to read just a bit about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster

Still, I don't see why GMs are so upset about players knowing what they were doing in-game 3 days before.
GMs can observe all that players are doing, at any time, at any place. Why wouldn't players be allowed to know just a bit about what GMs are doing, then?

Also, I can't imagine how knowledge about a GM teleporting to player X and saying "you duallog" and banning him for XX years can improve cheating methods for anyone. Maybe I'm not enough of a cheater myself.

Quote
Reconite whatever he did, was fired and there is nothing to comment here.
Of course it is, every time someone is claiming there was NO GM ABUSE ever.
Re: GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 07:32:33 pm »

What if XYZ corrupt too? :>
Logged
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.
irc V_guessWho
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
 

Page created in 0.057 seconds with 22 queries.