Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nice_Boat]

First of all we don't know what happened with your dynamite. But I know there are bugs where items seem to disappear until you relog. It's much more probable than some GM watching your every step.

Reconite whatever he did, was fired and there is nothing to comment here.

So there is one more incident you talk about (probably dealing with some trollish caravan) that happened in a span of, how many - 8, 10 months?

Yes, and the same dynamite bug caused player X to know Kilgore's fresh new char was Kilgore. Please.
Yes, he was fired, but the same arguments were used in his defence as the ones employed here.

And you're really missing the point here. It doesn't matter if there were more incidents, or if they were extremely limited. The fact still stands, and is absolutely impossible to rebuke, that your actions whatever they be are lacking any kind of transparency and real outside control, and that the abuse of GM powers is very much possible. This means that it's absolutely necessary to make the situation clear, because it places unnecessary strain on the playerbase.

[Cameleon]

In my eyes Abuse was create Izual , He was enter Caravan Near Broken Hills and he ban one man but he was use dual log .. next he was respawn 20 mutant with bazooka / minigun and he say ''everybody here use cheat'' and kill us for nothing

Good Job Nice_Boat  ! I still see it in suggestion not in junk !  

[Kilgore]

What if XYZ corrupt too? :>

Well, it would be up to devs to make a good choice. Also, I didn't say that XYZ has to be one person (only considered such a possibility).

[Surf]

What if XYZ corrupt too? :>

Then the next thread (like this here) will be opened, to police the policemens policemen, better make some policemens policemens policemens then.

People seem to forget, that GMs aren't robots, they are human. They can make mistakes such as everyone else. They don't share everytime the same opinion over ingame things neither. The only thing threads like these here are creating is general annoyance.
There is imo no need for publishing GM logs - as some people will scavenge these files frequently and will open threads if they find "something suspicious" - the next thread about so called "abuse" will be opened and the next wave of spam kicks in.
Also, in no other MMO GMs actions are published to the public - for a reason.

[eBay]

nice boat is 100% right, there is no person who can check what gms did and when, i know gms who used to give ammo and stuff for free, skins for free to friends, free events only for gang's members - events where people could use free stuff and ammo while other people have to use their own if they want to practice anything,
free dog's skins for friends used as scouts, checking oppoents lockers, workbenches, alts in bases terminals

and ofcz free army where gm was giving 21 lvl  for nothing + ammo + armors

[Nice_Boat]

Then the next thread (like this here) will be opened, to police the policemens policemen, better make some policemens policemens policemens then.

GMs are recruited from the playerbase and as such react to the other players on an emotional level, have their own likes, dislikes, have a sense of belonging to specific player communities and are affiliated with some groups. This XYZ person could be from outside of the community because essentially, he or she would be just an office worker.

People seem to forget, that GMs aren't robots, they are human. They can make mistakes such as everyone else. They don't share everytime the same opinion over ingame things neither. The only thing threads like these here are creating is general annoyance.

No, threads like these are created because of the general annoyance.

There is imo no need for publishing GM logs - as some people will scavenge these files frequently and will open threads if they find "something suspicious" - the next thread about so called "abuse" will be opened and the next wave of spam kicks in.
Also, in no other MMO GMs actions are published to the public - for a reason.

No, they'd follow the procedure and send a complaint, probably using a form supplied by the devteam. Actually, making GM actions transparent and giving us a place to go with complaints and suspicions would reduce threads about abuse to nil.

Also, in no other MMO GMs are acting without supervision and clear rules to follow - for a reason.

[Kilgore]

Then the next thread (like this here) will be opened, to police the policemens policemen, better make some policemens policemens policemens then.

That's why I repeated 2 times that it would be up to devs to choose the right person. Also, this choice wouldn't have to be permanent. Moreover, there is no problem if someone reports a GM 2 times MORE than he should, because devs will eventually filter it out anyway. The only problem is if he would cover up his GM friends.

People seem to forget, that GMs aren't robots, they are human. They can make mistakes such as everyone else. They don't share everytime the same opinion over ingame things neither.

That's why I said: "They just need to know what GMs can do and what they are allowed to do. "
If you make a mistake, you can always fix your fault. "Repetitive mistakes" shouldn't be tolerated, or having such GMs would be totally pointless (in my humble opinion, of course).

The only thing threads like these here are creating is general annoyance.

Not more than another "GM abuse" thread closed and junked.

There is imo no need for publishing GM logs - as some people will scavenge these files frequently and will open threads if they find "something suspicious" - the next thread about so called "abuse" will be opened and the next wave of spam kicks in.
Also, in no other MMO GMs actions are published to the public - for a reason.

No no, there is that XYZ person to handle all such stuff and then, all "GM abuse" threads would be closed and junked - with a reason. I thought it's obvious.
Also, comparing FOnline to any other MMO is rather stupid.

Well, I expected such a resistance from our precious Game Masters and I wondered if anything will change. We'll see

[cerberix]

...then he finds that GM X did nothing but stood in NCR all day and teleported random people to Glow without any reason.

Yeah you're right. Yesterday my friend was suddenly teleported to "block hex" and he can't come out. This is proof... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4nrN0jv94

What is it? So gm is bored eh? You don't have what to do?

[JovankaB]

Yeah you're right. Yesterday my friend was suddenly teleported to "block hex" and he can't come out. This is proof... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4nrN0jv94

What is it? So gm is bored eh? You don't have what to do?

It's impossible to teleport players by GM to some world map tile. GM could summon you there in theory, but you would see his/her name on the team list.

[Surf]

Well, I expected such a resistance from our precious Game Masters and I wondered if anything will change. We'll see

What other thing should one expect from a suggestion like this?
Also, there isn't that much of a resistance, I said I wouldn't care about logs in public, others too.
It's just the tedious work which WILL come with something like this.
And yes, you say "just another thread locked" - it's not that we have anything better to do? I don't know what the others think about this, but I don't have a joy when I have to lock a thread or need to delete dozens of spam posts by everytime the same few troublemakers. You can safely assume that people will get tired of reading "abuse abuse" just because someone found a "suspicious" thing in the log, which is actually not a famous "GM abuse". Just look at cerberix' post stating another "abuse" as an example. For me it's ok because Real Life kicked in and I won't have that much time for the game in the next weeks. But I pity the others who have to read all this stuff everyday and everyday again.

[Kilgore]

Well, look at Cerberix' post and decide how easier it would be to prove that NO GM was involved in such action if there was a public log of their actions.

[JovankaB]

Soon you would start suspecting that some things are not logged or there are some secret "super-gm" accounts outside log system.

[Nice_Boat]

Soon you would start suspecting that some things are not logged or there are some secret "super-gm" accounts outside log system.

No, because suspicions we have against GMs are based on the following facts:
- you're recruited from the player base and you've proven to be biased on numerous occasions
- members of the GM group have been acting outside the rules on numerous occasions (it's disputable how often, but some of them are well documented)
- you generally don't allow any discussion concerning your decisions without outside intervention

As the system we propose would be fully automated, it wouldn't require any work and you couldn't mess with the logs. The devs are outside any suspicion because they've proven time and time again that they're objective and should be trusted. If they do the scripts, there's no reason to complaint.

Furthermore, the transparent, open to public system would mean that a lot of manual work would be saved because:
- the devs wouldn't have to spend the time necessary for investigating the most obvious and atrocious cases of abuse should they occur ever again;
- the public would do all the evidence gathering for them;
- threads about GM abuse wouldn't have to be moderated because there'd be a highly automated procedure outside the forums for handling such issues.

[HertogJan]

I've admined a game server for about 2 years and am admininga  torrent server for over 5 years now.

No way would anyone outside staff members ever have access to log files.
If you do that, you open your doors wide for cheaters and exploiters as you give them all the information needed on how to prevent detection.
All it will lead to is an endless stream of discussion about GM's and their action, wether right or wrong.
In my personal experience it's the cheaters and exploiters who are shouting the hardest about abuse.

As for the comment someone made about dictatorship:
End your internet access subscription and crawl back under the rock you came underneath from.
Servers are maintained by people who set the rules for their guests. Wether it's a server hosting a game, a forum or whatever other kind of thing.
You may in some occassions have some saying in a few of the rules, at the end of the day you have no saying in most rules. Especially not in the important ones.
That's no different here.

I have no idea what's logged as far as GMs go and what's the underlying sytem, but I think an easy system could be implemented (depending on the database system that is):
Simply log all actions by GMs which cause changes to a player character. Thus leveling, adding items, killing them, etc.
Further more, I'm pretty sure that whoever of the devs is/are responsible for the GMs, check logfiles from time to time.
If they have no time to do so, or there's reason for it to be done more regularly, they should promote the most trusted/experienced/objective GM.
Yes, a GM, as that person knows things from a player's point of view and a GMs point of view.
Not to mention (s)he mostly likely knows the GM and can therefore better assess the situation.

Players should keep in mind that GMs probably have their own private forum(s) to discuss issues, actions taken, actions to be taken, etc.
Especially if it concerns something serious.

As for thieves, bombers, caravan traps, etc. the GMs not liking them simply have to learn to life with them like the rest of us.

As the system we propose would be fully automated, it wouldn't require any work and you couldn't mess with the logs. The devs are outside any suspicion because they've proven time and time again that they're objective and should be trusted. If they do the scripts, there's no reason to complaint.

Sure you can automate part of the process, but the complaining, whining and discussing part is completely human and won't go away.

[jan0s1k]

You should Fraps TC fights like Izual and post them which would give hard evidence. This is all hearsay, we don't know if you are being biased from the past due to bad run-ins with GMs, or if the GMs themselves are acting in poor taste.

I'm sure this is because of when I think rejfyl claimed Cadiliac blew up his gun for swearing, but if a GM did this I'm sure it would've been logged.

Not every player have 1TB harddrive to record all what he is doing (example I have only 8 GB to record - 5 minutes of game)

It's impossible to teleport players by GM to some world map tile. GM could summon you there in theory, but you would see his/her name on the team list.

He was teleported to empty location he leave that location and he was in this place (under glow)

I don't like points 1 and 2, especially 1 because it could give players to much info about methods and time when GMs detect cheats, exploits etc. It wouldn't be good for anyone but cheaters. Also some investigations are longer than 1 day. And I don't really think devs would like to be spammed 100 times / day with "I suspect GM of someting!" from some paranoid players, but I could be wrong... Besides some players might want discretion when talking to a GM on server, not everyone knows IRC, there can be some private info in logs/screens or info concerning other players not intended to be seen by public. At the same time it doesn't prevent at all some possible "abuses" like spying during TC for some team.

As a compromise for log access I think GMs should have access to commands logs of other GMs, so we could control each other. Right now we don't have it. Believe me or not, but I doubt any GM wants abusers and cheaters in the team (I don't think there are any in the moment, but as always, some players know better).

And one suggestion when you won't show gm's logs just allow players to look on their own logs I thing in players logs you can see what gm do with you (example teleporting etc)