Other > Suggestions
Grenade Topic
Solar:
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--- Quote ---a) too far to score a kill (your target can and will move almost instantaneously, so if you hit with 3 you can feel lucky
--- End quote ---
Well, you have complete tactical surprise, they can't see you, you can see them. Come from behind them and they have nowhere to go, for example - there are many other situations, I’m sure you can imagine them just as well as me.
--- Quote ---b) not 95% for 123 throwing/6PE (my sneaker has 140 throwing and 6PE and doesn't get 95% vs armored foes)
--- End quote ---
Yes yes, forgot about AC before making the char and couldnt be bothered going back through it all. Flick a few over from outdoors to throwing.
--- Quote ---17 hex is just insane, on the part of the sneaker that is. How are you going to exfiltrate with that once shit gets serious or the other side starts looking for you?
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't really care :) I would have 1 LA Mk II (at most) on me, the only thing I’d lose if we hadn't won the fight in the end anyway.
Essentially you have a dirt cheap way of getting an Avenger Minigunner on Jet firing from 15 hexes or under, with almost no warning for the enemy. With the cost for it being less than the AP ammo fired and not reliant on a Jet timer either. Also denying the extra range a sniper has over a Minigunner in which to critical you and being twice as resilient to arm cripples.
Since we probably won’t be seeing 15 AP characters, it’s a pretty safe bet Plasma Grenades as they are won’t be seen either.
Fast Shot adds nothing interesting to these weapons and they certainly don’t need the boost. If applied to only single shot weapons then it can used to create pure DPS builds for pistols and rifles – which is something interesting.
--- Quote ---I'm not going to post that BG crit build for obvious reasons (ie. BBS policy :> ), but no, it doesn't have Finesse.
--- End quote ---
Well, we can surmise that it must have BRD*2, Better crits*3, BRoF + something else. Also needs 10 luck, 8 Ag, 6 Pe (minimum), 4 Str (minimum) – with 11 points to share between In and En.
1 spare perk, if its not weapon handling then 3 of those points go to Str or to In to pay for the aim penalty, won’t be as durable as the tough Grenader.
I don’t mind the idea of grenades becoming more AP costly, perhaps with knockback/down added too all of them. They certainly don’t need a DPS boost however.
Admiral Zombie:
Hmmm, I unfortunately haven't been keeping much track of this, even though its a thread that i'm very interested in. I'll just breeze over a few things
1.) Lets try to keep subject of traits/fast shot out of here, except when in direct relation to grenades. I'll open another topic up for trait discussion soon.
2.) There is a lot of talk of support builds, or using grenades as secondary weapons. Until the system allows for variance in builds and moving away super specialized builds, then i don't think grenades as a secondary weapon is very realistic.
he only way grenades would become support I imagine is if they become closer to rocket launchers. To me they're already in this category. Yes in 1v1 grenades are supreme, but in a firefight with multiple people you're going to be the prime target generally. I've had to use A LOT of grenades to take down people generally (although in all fairness those were frag, i haven't worked with plasma outside of PvE very much.) The biggest advantage grenades have in team fights is simply that I can basically remove one of their combatants from the fight by keeping him on the ground, while my friends target others (hence why i often use frag over plasma, although thats changing with the 5frag change).
Something thats getting on my nerves are people who keep yelling "grenades are OP" or "2 ap per attack is too little!" rather than actually providing some backup. Its nice to see solar provide some number crunching, i wouldn't mind seeing that tested in game though.
Either way here are a handful of ideas for grenades that push them more into the "support" role. If grenade spam is nerfed, and their DPS is severely reduced (or increasing the AP cost to 5-6 as someone said) then i do think grenades need some kind of buff in other areas so that they aren't useless. Mainly i'll suggest additions to grenades, and let the AP/DPS/etc be sorted out by others
* Have grenade splash increased. Unless i'm in PvE with melee monsters that i can easily clump up then grenade splash rarely makes a difference, except when i maybe miss a little. Allow me to actually hit multiple foes who do not work to spread out. My enemies practically have to be adjacent to each other in order for me to hit several, and that almost never happens in PvP
* Allow grenades to cause crippled legs without a need for criticals. Presumably the AP cost would be extremely high if this is implemented
* Simply make grenades like rockets with a shorter range, that is only slightly able to be spammed (If i could shoot 2 rockets, then i should be able to throw 3-4 grenades). Keep the DPS the same as a rocket (including the rocket's reload time) but the advantage being i can keep people on the ground more easily than with rockets (The disadvantage being that I have to get MUCH closer to my target)
Regardless of what happens, i think grenades will remain king in 1v1s unless you nerf them to the point that they're useless in all areas, much like sneak. Sneak provides a HUGE advantage, however these advantages typically exist solely in 1v1. I've seen teams of sneakers very very rarely, but i haven't fought them enough unfortunately to know how that works out (I tend to be by myself in those situations)
As stated though in a team fight grenadiers tend to be target fired pretty quickly. Which is nice, since I can just build my grenadiers as a tank and absorb as much fire as i can so that my sniper glass cannons aren't being taken out. My main role is simply to disable the highest priority, and take on damage so that others don't have to (people tend to shoot the closest target anyways, so getting close with a grenadier works out doubly)
Solar:
Well, something like AP 6, 65-150 and knockback would be fine.
Keep the BRoF DPS roughly the same (only +/- 1 or 2%) and boost normal damage by 10% vs a bluesuit and 15% vs BA.
Better DPS vs all armours except CA, CAII (equal) and BA (less).
Rocket shoots every 9 AP with BRoF, Grenade thrown every 5 AP
Makes it so it not so reliant on BRoF.
Izual:
--- Quote ---Well, something like AP 6, 65-150 and knockback would be fine.
--- End quote ---
Can't wait for this (AP 6 with all AP bonus taken, right ? So AP 7-8 at first).
RavenousRat:
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 02:47:02 pm ---Well, we can surmise that it must have BRD*2, Better crits*3, BRoF + something else. Also needs 10 luck, 8 Ag, 6 Pe (minimum), 4 Str (minimum) – with 11 points to share between In and En.
1 spare perk, if its not weapon handling then 3 of those points go to Str or to In to pay for the aim penalty, won’t be as durable as the tough Grenader.
--- End quote ---
Omg, if you want to make pure power build, don't waste your points on ST.
Critical perks doesn't require ST to pick them, so you can always up it with buffout. Don't waste on weapon handling, buffout.
7 AG only to take BRoF, x2 buffout gives 4 AG, so if your build doesn't require BRoF, then it's 6 AG.
1 ST is enough, x2 buffout gives 6 ST, so it's 7 ST.
So yes, 6 PE is minimum, 6 or 7 AG is minimum, if 7 AG, then 6 IN is minimum for BRoF, 10 LK is the must too.
Don't forget about imba drugs. Especially buffout, which gives to you possibility to use any weapon with 1 ST and gives good critical resistance, 'cause of +6EN with x2 buffout, so 6 EN is only if you want to pick toughness, or else it's 4 EN, so with x2 buffout it'll be 10, good enough to resist cripples and knock outs/downs, resist means no immune, but of couse less chance, much less, try to run around with 4 EN, almost every shot at hand will cripple it, then eat some buffout and say to friend to shoot again, he'll waste lots bullets on your hand.
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