Other > Suggestions
Grenade Topic
Izual:
If any special tactic is used by Grenaders, it's due to their Sneak skill, not due to their Grenade skill. You behave quite exactly the same if you are a BG sneaker (assuming it exists) and a Grenader sneaker. A big gun shoots a lot of bullets, and doesn't really care about one or two bullets, right. He is relying on his firerate too. Grenaders are quite the same. They throw as many grenades as possible, because ONE grenade sucks and they actually can throw 8 in a row with correct build. That's what I am against. I believe much more tactics could be used if grenades were used as support weapons.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Izual on June 20, 2010, 01:22:55 pm ---If any special tactic is used by Grenaders, it's due to their Sneak skill, not due to their Grenade skill. You behave quite exactly the same if you are a BG sneaker (assuming it exists) and a Grenader sneaker. A big gun shoots a lot of bullets, and doesn't really care about one or two bullets, right. He is relying on his firerate too. Grenaders are quite the same. They throw as many grenades as possible, because ONE grenade sucks and they actually can throw 8 in a row with correct build. That's what I am against. I believe much more tactics could be used if grenades were used as support weapons.
--- End quote ---
Not really, no. Because everything a nade sneaker does is determined by grenade range and splash damage. A BG sneaker doesn't have such problems, he can just run up and spray you (which, contrary to grenades, was very, very cheap and I'm glad it's no longer around). And no, they can't throw 8 in a row because by the time they throw the 4th the target is either in the process of killing them or has moved away.
By the way - what do you mean saying they should be used a support weapons? That they should be used like in real life? If so than remember they're used as area/indirect fire weapons, so it's not going to happen without the ability to target the ground instead of the critter. That'd require new game mechanics, I don't think that it's inside the scope of this discussion, ie. whether grenades require a nerf or not.
Solar:
--- Quote ---how would you get enough throwing to get 95% at 15 hex
--- End quote ---
Pe 6, Throwing 123. 95% at 15 Hexes. Though should add a little to combat AC.
--- Quote --- You can't have a sneaker without skilled/10 IN
--- End quote ---
Pe 10 sees 50 hexes. You need to take away 35 hexes => 210% + 75% for front = 285%
http://www.nitue.net/fcp/2.0/index.php char - SneakyMcGhee pass - sneak
124% throwing, 285% sneak, 74% outdoorsman (to spend the free points on something, should probably have bumped throwing up a little really) - This is a throw away character. Sit in sneak until the optimum time, pop out at 15 hexes and unload. He's going to die, but he has nothing anyway. I've seen these types in TC several times, scout for a while, then nade at the appropriate moment, this is just the best version. You're going to need non sneak chars to defend a town anyway.
Sure we can toughen him up if you want, 1 luck builds do 243.6HP off 5 Grenades (+6% vs the 3 shot Avenger crit build from last post.) but now we have a very different animal.
http://www.nitue.net/fcp/2.0/index.php - ToughSneak - sneak
We could even put LA II on him (-29% Sneak) and be seen at 17 Hexes, they get a 2 Hex warning, but hes a bit tougher again. (He could almost take 3 shots with AP ammo in his bluesuit though)
--- Quote ---As to that BG build - you're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at 25% crit chance iis pretty much the standard, with better critical as a very much viable option. The bottom line being you end up with 1% crit chance vs 25% crit chance.
--- End quote ---
Lets see this 25% crit chance build, without Finesse, since Finesse makes you do less damage overall. We can see if he's as tough as our tough sneaker. (25% crit *3 shots would be 254 HP +4% to the 1 luck guy)
Izual:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on June 20, 2010, 01:34:48 pm ---By the way - what do you mean saying they should be used a support weapons? That they should be used like in real life? If so than remember they're used as area/indirect fire weapons, so it's not going to happen without the ability to target the ground instead of the critter. That'd require new game mechanics, I don't think that it's inside the scope of this discussion, ie. whether grenades require a nerf or not.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, it would be "like in real life". Not because they would have the same use, but because they would not be always used and deal huge damage. It is (unfortunately) impossible to target ground, but this flaw can be compensated with a strong knockback ability and a range increase, for example (The only nerf it requires as a drawback is increasing AP needed to throw one grenade).
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 01:59:56 pm ---...
--- End quote ---
Solar - once again, 15 hex is:
a) too far to score a kill (your target can and will move almost instantenously, so if you hit with 3 you can feel lucky)
b) not 95% for 123 throwing/6PE (my sneaker has 140 throwing and 6PE and doesn't get 95% vs armored foes)
17 hex is just insane, on the part of the sneaker that is. How are you going to exfiltrate with that once shit gets serious or the other side starts looking for you?
I'm not going to post that BG crit build for obvious reasons (ie. BBS policy :> ), but no, it doesn't have Finesse.
--- Quote from: Izual on June 20, 2010, 02:09:35 pm ---Yeah, it would be "like in real life". Not because they would have the same use, but because they would not be always used and deal huge damage. It is (unfortunately) impossible to target ground, but this flaw can be compensated with a strong knockback ability and a range increase, for example (The only nerf it requires as a drawback is increasing AP needed to throw one grenade).
--- End quote ---
I could live with that. I mean increasing AP to something like 6 (basic throw) and increasing the damage up to 250% of what it is right now would probably do the trick neatly.
As for targetting ground - I've offered a solution a while ago. Just add a hotkey and once the player presses it and aims at the ground an invisible "target" critter with pretty high AC is spawned there and deleted as soon as the shot is done. Maybe not the most elegant way of doing it, but it'd work despite engine limitations I think.
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