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Grenade Topic

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kttdestroyer:
Well, this is what i think

The granades are very specific in their way as it is. A thrower character is almost a character "class" on its own. And personally i think that is good. So every skill like big guns, small guns, energy and thrower got diffrent tactics, all this together gives a bit more flexiblity to the game. More tactical options. I dont think there is anything that has to be changed in terms of granades... Maybe easier making of throwing knifes like 2 at once isntead of 1.

My 50 cents or how you say.

Solar:
Well, we can factor in criticals if you want.

Plasma Grenade boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.65%
Avenger boost per 1% of crit chance = 0.5%
Boost on Avenger with 2 BRD per 1% = 0.6

Now its very easy for a Plasma nader to get near +25% crit chance, they have very few requirements and no specialised perks. Lets say each has 3*More crits (Finesse is a stupid idea for burst, so ignore this), BG has 2*BRD, 3 More Crits, BRoF  and ... Toughness? and Grenade Thrower has Silent Running, Thief,  Heave Ho!, BRoF and 3 More Crits.

My Sneak Thrower would be: 3/6/4/1/10/10/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot - 95% accuracy at max range, enough sneak to be 15 hexes invisible vs Pe 10, crit chance of 22% (or +14.3% damage).
BG Char we have 7/6/6/1/6/8/7 - Small Frame/Fast Shot to compare fairly, though Small Frame is less convienient for BG - Let's say this will do, we don't want to waste the perk on weapon handling because more crits gives +5% where +3 Luck is only +3%. Crit chance also +22% (or +13.2%).

Since you say Toughness (1) is the norm:
Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*1.143 = 52.3 HP
Avenger = 11.5, Metal Armour II is  6/40% = ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.92)*13*1.132 = 76.7 HP

3 Avenger Shots is then about 230 HP and 5 Plasma Grenades will be about 262 HP, even 4 Grenades are 209 HP.

Having tested it it seems the animation speed pretty much caps it at 5 Grenades per 3 Minigun bursts - This means a Plasma nader is like a Minigunner on Jet only they do more damamge, costs them nothing and the animation speeds are near equal. (I think its a pretty safe bet Jet won't be allowing you to gain 6 AP in future either, less effect and a longer period seems to be the best way forward.)


Advantages the Ambush Nader has are very high DPS, splash damage, the ability to choose where combat take place and very little risk/set-up cost (say $1000 vs $12200). Sure you're going to want Armoured people somewhere, but 3 or 4 Grenaders are a massive force multiplier (and still would be even if the only thing to change was fast shot not working on them).

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:31:11 pm ---...

--- End quote ---

Solar, this discussion is pointless if you pull worthless builds and purely theoretical tactics out of your ass like that, sorry. You can't have a sneaker without skilled/10 IN, which basically limits your perks to silent running, thief or ghost, BrOF and lifegiver with toughness (1) or awareness. If you go with low HP like that, you're not even getting past that first minigun burst, and you're going to waste yourself with your own nades more often than you waste your enemy. For a good sneaker, you need 10 IN and 10 EN - so where would that high luck be coming from? And even if you somehow squeeze something out of your SPECIAL - how the hell would you put more critical in? Without skilled - how would you get enough throwing to get 95% at 15 hex? And why 15? If you attack at 15, you're not throwing more than 2 - most people would do the smart thing and run a few hexes back while their partner(s) fill you full of lead or simply run away if it's 1v1. You want to put enough of your nades in - you attack at 5. So basically you run up to the person in question, he sees you, you pray he's not fast enough/distracted and start throwing. And that by no means guarantees your success.

As to that BG build - you're kidding, right? Let's just leave it at 25% crit chance iis pretty much the standard, with better critical as a very much viable option. The bottom line being you end up with 1% crit chance vs 25% crit chance.

The only thing you got right is little risk associated with solo-playing a grenadier... but then again it's pretty much what people have been telling you since this discussion started. It's a good minestalker build and a good scout, nothing more. You still need armor for battles, and then the odds get a bit different - because once you unsneak in a big battle you basically die, while BG users have way higher survival rates and, more importantly - higher gear recovery rates. Just take a look at what sneakers do during TC. If you were right in the slightest degree, you'd see them blowing their opponents to tiny little pieces - but somehow they tend to go out of their way in avoiding combat - and most don't even bother taking their fighting gear there. I wonder why, if they're so lethal in your opinion? And how come people still go with different builds even though it denies them the advantage associated with sneak? ::)

To sum up, your calculations miss:
- actual tactics used by the builds in question
- the builds themselves
- implied odds of using a sneak-grenadier in large (ie. TC) PvP
... which pretty much makes them nothing more than some interesting, albeit useless, trivia.

Izual:

--- Quote ---- actual tactics used by the builds in question
--- End quote ---

Grenader build. List of tactics :


* 1) Grenades Rain.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Izual on June 20, 2010, 01:06:58 pm ---Grenader build. List of tactics :


* 1) Grenades Rain.
--- End quote ---

Riiiiiiiiiiight. And snipers shoot and BG burst. And combat in 2238 is simple and that's why all the players do it right and are equally successful, which is why there are about 15 gangs competing on equal terms in TC right now and what's more all the PvP events have proven that it's all about raining grenades and being lucky ::)

Seriously though, that was some quality input on the issue at hand there, Izual. I think I've learned something about playing my sneaker today, thanks!

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