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Grenade Topic
Solar:
--- Quote from: Kilgore on June 20, 2010, 12:40:28 am ---Are we talking about 1v1 duel or overall usefulness of a grenadier with plasma nades?
--- End quote ---
We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.
--- Quote ---Well, with the animation time, with jet and full AP, you burst 3 times in 3 seconds
--- End quote ---
Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.
Kilgore:
Not enough mana. Erm, I mean skill points.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:29:33 am ---5 Plasma Grenades Average Damage = 65, Metal Armour II is 4/25%. 61*0.75*5 = 228.75 HP
3 Avenger Shots, Average Damage = 9.5, Metal Armour II is 4/35% = ((9.5*0.6666)-1)*0.93)*13*3 = 193.44 HP ... or with 2 BRD its 241.8 HP
Now lets factor in Toughness (2) on the Avenger, since we gave him 2 BRD, its only fair.
11.5 Average damage (2 BRD) 8/45% armour => ((11.5*0.6666)-2)*0.91)*13*3 = 201.1
--- End quote ---
That would be Toughness (1), because you don't take two on a powerbuild. Ans I still will insist that Avenger is way more reliable in providing you with kills than plasma nades. No idea why, it's just the way it is.
Oh, and please remember a good BG build has a 20-25% critical chance, with most criticalls being one shot kills. With 3 bursts you're more likely to shoot the guy up like that than not. Grenade builds have 1% critical chance.
And once you factor in the exposition factor (break from cover, 3 bursts, hide vs. break from cover, throw 5 times while exposed, get killed before scoring a kill) you come to the conclusion PvP players have realized a long time ago - grenades suck in group combat. They're a good assassination 1v1 weapon against a surprised victim. That's basically it.
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:29:33 am ---Factor in Psycho? If you insist.
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That's the only situation in which plasma grenades are theoretically viable in open combat... but then again let's be hardcore and factor in Tesla. Starts looking a bit funny, eh?
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:29:33 am ---Remember this is with 10AP (Plasma) vs 15AP (Avenger)
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The only time AP matters is when you either:
a) run out hard (that is, the enemy didn't run and you didn't get him after throwing 7 or something like that - the fact I've had it happen from time to time is a testimony to how grenades can suck HARD as a "battle weapon")
b) play turn based, in which grenades truely are just plain nasty.
Both cases really aren't all that common though.
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:29:33 am ---I believe I'm right in saying that it has no knockback, but the animation prevents you firing back, no?
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Click click click click BANG. Nuff said. The animation doesn't prevent you from either firing back or (which is more important) running. I'd say that a person that lets him- or herself be killed by grenades while wearing combat armor and up was either distracted or inexperienced.
Michaelh139:
--- Quote from: Michaelh139 on June 20, 2010, 12:43:42 am ---Grenadiers should use grenades and shotguns.
Grenade from distance, shotgun from pointblank to avoid splash damage.
Simple.
--- End quote ---
Sorry for quoting myself but I think being the last post it got overlooked.
Kilgore:
--- Quote from: Solar on June 20, 2010, 12:45:59 am ---We are talking about what I quoted, 5 Plasma nades > 3 Avenger shots in terms of what it can kill.
Fast Shot won't be changed in isolation.
--- End quote ---
OK then. If you like numbers so much, grenadier has 37.5% of the range of the big gunner with avenger minigun, and also, the part of FOV where he can attack effectively and at the same time - safely - is way lower than those 37.5%. Of course he can use sneak. But when we're talking about specific builds or sets of equipment involved, then the biggunner can crit him killing him instantly, or wear tesla. Then, you'd say, the grenadier can crit him too! But in fact, I bet that average biggunner has critical chance at least few times higher than that of an average grenadier.
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