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Author Topic: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT  (Read 8765 times)

FischiPiSti

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AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« on: May 08, 2010, 02:23:41 pm »

Notice that AP doesnt regenerate while doing actions. Switching active weapon slots, reloading, attacking, using skills like FA,using items like drugs, accessing inventory and switching weapons, whatever.
One would think that if an action costs less AP, one could use more of that action because the AP regenerates while he is.
For example in RT if you have fast shot, 10 AG, and 100 rocks in your pocket, you could throw them without losing any AP at all. But thats not the case. You are furiously clicking the target throwing 10 rocks, then stop, because your AP is all gone. You COULD think that this is OK because that 1 AP regenerates fast and you can continue throwing, but no, its not ok.
Place a sniper with no BRoF next to the throwing guy, and tell them to fire at a random target. The sniper is using aimed eye shots which cost a lot of ap.
But notice the difference? Because the sniper guy does no actions inbetween the shots, he is regenerating AP. The throwing guy has ZERO AP regeneration because he is constantly taking actions.
This is a problem.
Switching active weapon slots costs no AP at all, or does it? Yes is does, because AP doesnt regenerate while doing it. The system should encourage strategic uses of weapons, but currently, switching weapons is very risky because: 1. You cant do other action for that 1 second, and 2. If you have low AP you cant fire immediately. These 2 reasons encourage to use only 1 item and spam untill the enemy falls over.
The less AP it takes for that action, the less regeneration. Spamming normal stimpacks into yourself while taking bursts from sawed off shotguns.
So...Does that BRoF REALLY worth it? Well yeah it does, if the starting pool of AP permits it, you can start off with more attacks which can easily mean survival for you, but after you blow all your AP it actually has no effect because yes you can initiate the next attack quicker, but AP regeneration suffers.
You can have 2 perks that lower AP requirements. 1 for HtH and 1 for ranged. In TB, BHtHA is far superior, because if you take the ripper for example, that 1 perk grants you 33% more attacks. With a rifle for example with base 5 AP/single shots, then thats only 20%. With a sniper aimed eye shot, its only 12,5%. I would have a suggestion for this, that bonus attack perks should lower AP in percentage rather then just 1 AP, but thats for another discussion. In RT the perks work the other way around, because the same actions take the same amount of time to complete(same slow animations), even tho you have bonus attack perks.
So you STILL COULD think that this is ok right? WRONG. In TB there is no such factor as AP regeneration. You suffer no penalty for using alot of low-AP actions, and you can switch weapons as you wish.

So what could be done you ask? Well 2 things:
1 AP should regenerate at all times exept when moving ofc(exept for bonus move perks)
2 (and/or)The upcoming 3d animations should have 3 speed versions: Normal attack, fast shot, fastshot+bonus attacks
(In WoW(yeah...again...) there are abilities that grant bonus attacks. These attacks actually show up with faster animations so they fit in the rotation.)

The first one would be the best solution obviously.

So inb4 Solar: "The engine doesnt permit this."
Do the devs have plans to fix/improve on the issue? :)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 02:29:59 pm by FischiPiSti »
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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2010, 03:09:43 pm »

I think (as probably said in some others suggestion) that Sequence should influence the speed of AP regeneration.
Or maybe we can stay in "family" and look at Fallout Tactics: if I remember well AP regeneration is faster there.

I've also a question, since we are in argument: Bonus Move grant AP regeneration when moving for few steps?
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Sius

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2010, 03:14:02 pm »

Bonus move have 0 effect in RT afaik. Anyway AP regen is a good topic and I would like to see some changes there. But I believe that even while walking/running APs should regenerate. Slowly but regenerate. Like while walking its 1/3 of regular AP regen speed and while running its 1/4.

FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2010, 03:18:46 pm »

No its not, itwas just a hint for devs to make it usable outside of TB combat ;)
But its not possible to do because of engine restrictions... Wish the project would be opensource :/ (inb4 solar :D)

IMO AP regeneration should generally be slower, because RT combat ends way too fast. But that would just make jet junkies even more powerfull, so i guess its fine the way it is. Doing fast actions however as i explained in the post has serious penalties and should be changed as soon as the engine permits it. It should be top priority imo.
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions

Lordus

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2010, 03:20:16 pm »

In our big thread, PvP balance, AP regeneration is one way how to balance SMG.. they would, in oposite of assault rifles and big guns, regenerate during shoting, moving,... So i think that universal regenaration is very bad idea. It will only very help BG, it will be their another burst...
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FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2010, 03:40:36 pm »

No its not, in my eyes this is a BUG rather then a feature, balance should be done with item perks/regular perks.
So yeah SMG could have an item perk that has a +AP regeneration stat, that would be balance. This is just a bug, that is "exploited" daily by snipers.
And its not about BG, BG bursts have reasonably high AP costs, im worried about HtH actually, and everyday actions/skill like stimpacks and FA/doc. 2 AP ripper slashes in RT.......Not as good as you might think it is.
And general stuff like shoveling shit...

Besides how do you expect to balance SMG with this feature if the engine doesnt let it atm?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 03:45:45 pm by FischiPiSti »
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions

vedaras

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2010, 04:30:53 pm »

In our big thread, PvP balance, AP regeneration is one way how to balance SMG.. they would, in oposite of assault rifles and big guns, regenerate during shoting, moving,... So i think that universal regenaration is very bad idea. It will only very help BG, it will be their another burst...

ap cost is for that not ap regeneration. Ap regeneration should be constant for everyone if they have same stats on which regeneration depends.

Izual

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2010, 04:36:27 pm »

Fights are already really fast. Don't make them even faster.
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FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2010, 04:50:45 pm »

Yeah fights end fast but not because AP regeneration, but because high tier weapons have too much damage. In single player TB you dont notice it, because TB is a balanced game of chess. But in RT the first jet junkie that empties his AP pool is the winner.
...But thats again, another story.
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions

Lordus

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2010, 06:33:49 pm »

ap cost is for that not ap regeneration. Ap regeneration should be constant for everyone if they have same stats on which regeneration depends.

 i know this, but BGunners do generaly bigger damages, so their overal damage in time will be bigger.

 I.e.: BG/2 bursts/dmg 160 in cca 8 sec. (ap reg time). after AP regeneration: BG/3 butsts/dmg 240 (because ofter 2 bursts they will have at least half of their AP regenerated).
        SG/2 bursts/dmg 60 in cca 8 sec -II-                  after AP regeneration: SG/3 bursts/dmg 90( -II).

 Do you see that problem? Actualy, there is no need to give another advantge to BGs.. IMO this AP reg will help to dozens of now in PvP unused guns..

 Think global, act local, not in different way, Vedaras.
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FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2010, 06:54:12 pm »

Ah Lordus...

This an issue of RT mechanics, not a question of balance dont you see?  :-\
In TB everybody has the same AP "regeneration" then everybody, HtH, docs, BGs, SGs, ENs, they all have the same chances. Sequence helps with who shoots first. All this is missing from RT. Snipers have more regeneration, so over time, they will do more damage, then anybody else. BGs do more damage in the "first round" because they have:
10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions

Izual

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2010, 06:55:32 pm »

10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.

What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?
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FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2010, 07:07:46 pm »

What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?
Well...the 7 perk limit actually. Snipers choose better criticals+more criticals, and even then, they dont need many APs. The crits keep the victim on the ground so in RT its actually worth more to wait for the victim to get up again using 3 AP and only attack after that.
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions

Lordus

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2010, 07:43:32 pm »

Ah Lordus...

This an issue of RT mechanics, not a question of balance dont you see?  :-\
In TB everybody has the same AP "regeneration" then everybody, HtH, docs, BGs, SGs, ENs, they all have the same chances. Sequence helps with who shoots first. All this is missing from RT. Snipers have more regeneration, so over time, they will do more damage, then anybody else. BGs do more damage in the "first round" because they have:
10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.

 As i remember, AP are full regenerated in cca 8 seconds. It does not depends, if you have 5 AP or 16 AP character build. So in 16 seconds, my sniper was able to shoot 3x (if my AP was fully regenerated before first shot), and biggunner with BRoF, 2x ap and 2 jet = 3 x 16 = 48 maximum AP ..  3*5 +3 = 18 (3 bursts and reload)  48 of total point / 18 = === 8 bursts (with 2 reloads)

 And i repeat, for kidn of weapons, with totaly overpowered atributes (look to my Single player problem definition graph).

 Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 
What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?

 If the positive drug effect is away, sniper is unable to use his weapon (he cant use eye or headshots). Biggunner is still able to burst.
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FischiPiSti

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Re: AP regeneration while taking actions in RT
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2010, 07:54:49 pm »

You really dont get my point and dont even try.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE. THIS IS A BUG.

If a weapon has high DPS, lower it by increasing AP cost, or lower it by damage. THATS balancing.
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
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