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[Attero]

Ok ATM AC reduces chances to hit target- it sounds nice but when you consider that everyone try to have enough weapon skill to hit regardless of any AC targets could have. And even if they lack some % they can jsut move few hexes forward

My suggestion would be to make AC reduce the maximum hit chances instead - something like a deflection cahnces. So if target would have 35% AC the chances to hit him would be max of 60%

Then probably -AC ammo would need to be tuned down to keep it in balance with other weapons.

Finally it would also require itnerface buff so when shown %hit is caped by AC the cursor would change color...


EDIT : but then you cant rly deflect nades and rockets... those two would probably need to ignore AC :S

[avv]

Ac needs a buff for sure. It could serve as alternate method for avoiding damage among DR and hitpoints.

My suggestion would be to make AC reduce the maximum hit chances instead - something like a deflection cahnces. So if target would have 35% AC the chances to hit him would be max of 60%

This is good idea. Instead of reducing the accuracy, ac just sets the upper limit.

We'd need bullets sort out armor and character related ac because ac from agi and dodger perks are caused by reflexes, not deflection.

[Sius]

The way I imagine Armor Class is more or less like armors "permeability". Better AC = stronger and more resistant armor that can take larger impact. Honestly how could kevlar suit help me not to get shot? It reduces damage from projectile impact but it does not affect if enemy hits me or not. So imho AC should more or less affect final dmg taken rather than chance to hit.

[RavenousRat]

Ac needs a buff for sure. It could serve as alternate method for avoiding damage among DR and hitpoints.

This is good idea. Instead of reducing the accuracy, ac just sets the upper limit.

We'd need bullets sort out armor and character related ac because ac from agi and dodger perks are caused by reflexes, not deflection.

Yes AC is useless for now. Dodger perk... 5% less to hit? Kidding? May be works only on rats, so they will get around 40% to hit you, instead of 45%. And having not always 95% is good too. Like in Arcanum on max. difficulity. In Arcanum, if you have max. weapon skill it'll be 90% (or 85%? can't remember) to hit, but aimed attacks (head/hand/leg) substracted from 90%, so, even with max. weapon skill, you will have great chance to miss target's head.

[JustGreat]

Not everyone is killing rats, and not to mention it requires a lot of rebalancing.

[Attero]

The way I imagine Armor Class is more or less like armors "permeability". Better AC = stronger and more resistant armor that can take larger impact. Honestly how could kevlar suit help me not to get shot? It reduces damage from projectile impact but it does not affect if enemy hits me or not. So imho AC should more or less affect final dmg taken rather than chance to hit.

atm AC reduces hit chances . The idea is that armor ould be given something like chances to fully deflect incoming damage (lets say some parts of armor are reinforced . this easily can be made the way i said it. Ofc we could just add a passive chance to avoid damage as totaly new stat...

eitherway the thing is most considrer AC is lackluster stat and im just wondering if it could be improved.

[avv]

The way I imagine Armor Class is more or less like armors "permeability". Better AC = stronger and more resistant armor that can take larger impact. Honestly how could kevlar suit help me not to get shot? It reduces damage from projectile impact but it does not affect if enemy hits me or not. So imho AC should more or less affect final dmg taken rather than chance to hit.

DT and DR already reduce the damage. If you're wearing a power armor, it wouldn't seem unlikely that some weaker bullets could just bounce off from it.

Ac could also mean that you're exceptionally good at using cover, so you aren't even hit. In close combat it would mean that you dodge and parry the strikes of your enemy.

[Nice_Boat]

The way I imagine Armor Class is more or less like armors "permeability". Better AC = stronger and more resistant armor that can take larger impact. Honestly how could kevlar suit help me not to get shot? It reduces damage from projectile impact but it does not affect if enemy hits me or not. So imho AC should more or less affect final dmg taken rather than chance to hit.

I'd say it's an abstract stat encompassing camouflage (harder to spot = lower chance to hit for the attacker), maneuvrability (easier to move in, allows for rapid bursts of movement = harder to hit = lower chance to hit for the attacker) and ability to deflect glancing hits (has to be hit in a proper part to inflict damage = lower chance to hit for the attacker). Metal Armor = low AC, cumbersome, reflects sunlight etc. Jackets - low AC, but comfy. Leather Armors - mid AC, comfy, could have some basic camo pattern or just be properly coloured. CA - military grade camouflage, ability to stop some glancing hits. Power Armor - yeah, it's big, but it deflects most hits. The system as it is makes perfect sense. Capping chance to hit at some abstract level for each armor probably wouldn't (and if it would, I don't really see a rationale). If you want to have a "most shots don't hit" system, cap the max chance to hit at 45% for everything... but I doubt people would enjoy playing that.

[RavenousRat]

If you want to have a "most shots don't hit" system, cap the max chance to hit at 45% for everything... but I doubt people would enjoy playing that.

No, just AC will substract from your % to hit. And your % to hit is max. 95% (even if you shooting at point blank and have skill 300%) like now. So, if target has 10 AGI, Combat Armor MKII, and Dodger perk = 10+25+5=40 AC. 95%-40%=45%, but don't forget about:
1) May be someone start use CA MK2, not BoS.
2) Don't forget that .223 has -20 to AC, so it'll be 65% (only if target is at max. AC-build and armor); 7.62 -5 AC, Rocket AP -15 AC, 12ga -10 AC. +if this will be implemented, then ammo AC can be rebalanced.

[Roachor]

Well since the fallout combat system was made for PVE and most critters have like 60-100 sm gun skill untill you start running into guys in CA having high AC meant most shots would miss, it just doesn't work since players have over double that many points.

[Nice_Boat]

No, just AC will substract from your % to hit. And your % to hit is max. 95% (even if you shooting at point blank and have skill 300%) like now. So, if target has 10 AGI, Combat Armor MKII, and Dodger perk = 10+25+5=40 AC. 95%-40%=45%, but don't forget about:
1) May be someone start use CA MK2, not BoS.
2) Don't forget that .223 has -20 to AC, so it'll be 65% (only if target is at max. AC-build and armor); 7.62 -5 AC, Rocket AP -15 AC, 12ga -10 AC. +if this will be implemented, then ammo AC can be rebalanced.

That doesn't really make sense, both gameplay-wise and "realism"-wise. Why would a perfect shot have any more trouble hitting a guy in a power armor than, say, leather jacket? The act of shooting lies on the side of the assailant, the probability of success can't be determined by the stuff the attacked person wears - it just defies common sense. As far as gameplay goes - increasing the luck factor decreases the skill factor and makes combat less involving. If I wanted to see units duking it out by themselves based on well-tuned % values, I'd play Combat Mission. Oh, and do keep in mind that good players are extremely adept at disengaging and evasion (that's what keeps them alive in a firefight - using cover and giving you very few opportunities to fire), so if you don't hit with that 65% shot, you won't get another chance - therefore the impact on lethality would be much larger than one might initially think and most engagements would turn out to be indecisive, with lots of ammo wasted and virtually no casualties.

Well since the fallout combat system was made for PVE and most critters have like 60-100 sm gun skill untill you start running into guys in CA having high AC meant most shots would miss, it just doesn't work since players have over double that many points.

It worked perfectly fine in Fallout Tactics. Oh, and Fallout combat system was based on GURPS, and GURPS was sort of universal.


I don't know people. This combat system worked in a tactical game dedicated to pvp fighting, and you want to change basic game mechanic based on "this attribute isn't as important as I'd like it to be"? And you're not even right, cause AC has a lot of impact on long range fighting (think sniper rifles and lasrifles) and basically determines the ammount of skill points you have to put into your chosen fighting skill to consistently score hits, therefore being one of the most important factors as far as combat character builds are concerned.

[blahblah]

Well since the fallout combat system was made for PVE and most critters have like 60-100 sm gun skill untill you start running into guys in CA having high AC meant most shots would miss, it just doesn't work since players have over double that many points.

Cap skills at 200%? Naw. That'd be bad.

[Roachor]

Cap skills at 200%? Naw. That'd be bad.

I never said anything about capping skills, but a 200% cap wouldn't be worth doing because anyone who wants to waste their points is free to do so. Very few skills are worth going over 200 for.

[Sius]

I never said anything about capping skills, but a 200% cap wouldn't be worth doing because anyone who wants to waste their points is free to do so. Very few skills are worth going over 200 for.

Mostly only "bad" skills aka SG, BG, EG, sneak, steal, traps worth going over 200. Maybe also barter and outdoorsman. But in common PvE skills are capped at 120% to 170% but average PvP skills require 190+ to get proper bonuses from it.

[Roachor]

Mostly only "bad" skills aka SG, BG, EG, sneak, steal, traps worth going over 200. Maybe also barter and outdoorsman. But in common PvE skills are capped at 120% to 170% but average PvP skills require 190+ to get proper bonuses from it.

Over 200 only helps weapon skills if you are fighting at really long distance such as sniper, barter at 200+ means that char probably won't do much other than trade and outdoorsman past 140 sucks imo because encounters become really rare.