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[Sius]

So the only reason you "can't have fun from pvp" anymore is the FA change, maybe the crafting time/ outcome for rockets? Are you serious? People remove ways of cheating xp fast and you comlain?

You did not get him. Even tho I think that Holo is a bit too angry he has the point. Game is now PvE centered and people who enjoy crafting and hardcore rpg have best season ever. But on the other hand there are people who like PvP and a bit of action more over farming endless stocks of mats and getting rich. And these people suffer from recent changes. Healing is the last thing in a row. Main problem is that PvP players have to kill enormous time ingame in order to get to a point when they can finally have some fun out of it. And thats what we brainless PvPers are complaining about all the time.
Crafters don't mind faster/slower leveling. In fact if I was one right now I would pretty much welcome slower exp since I would be doing what I enjoy longer before I master it. But thats not my case. So now its like having 3 types of players. PvE guys who don't care that much about slow exping since they are not affected by it and they have fun ingame. PvP maniacs who will play no matter what which are at high levels and taking towns already. And "casual" PvPers who don't have that much time to spend ingame to get at least some reward for their work. Now if you don't focus on exping really hard then you can't PvP in reasonable time horizon. If you are one of those who have like 1 tops 2 hours a day for FOnline and you enjoy PvP then you will be able to have some fun ingame like in month or so. Until then its repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition... Thats what are we crying about.

[Kilgore]

You PK you should suffer

[JovankaB]

If you are one of those who have like 1 tops 2 hours a day for FOnline and you enjoy PvP then you will be able to have some fun ingame like in month or so. Until then its repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition... Thats what are we crying about.

As I understand the problem is not PvPing on levels < 21, but that PvPs have no way to level up excep PvE, craft or farming with bots so you are forced to do things you don't like to level up. Maybe there should be a way to gain XP for PvP, not by killing every player because it would be to easy to exploit, but maybe for example by giving small amount of XP to all gang members for holding town (every hour or something like that). The problem is it's hard to find some non-exploitable way to gather XP in PvP. BG powerbuilds shouldn't get XP for killing random bluesuits shoveling shit.

[Solar]

7. XP for TC?
- Not necessary + seems exploitable.

[JovankaB]

Hmmm, how XP for holding town is exploitable (if it's given for every hour of keeping control for example)? It's not like farming in base, any gang can come and take the town back. The only problem I see is that it would make the most powerful gangs even more powerful.

[Onion]

I foresee adding people to gangs just for XP for holding town

[Solar]

Well, this system is bit harder to give xp for keeping control because of the mechanics. I suppose one thing could be getting xp for killing Militia 

[Sius]

Well TC is still rather high lvl feature and the main problem is to get from 1 to 15 lvl. At that point chars are getting useful more or less (depend on the build) so they can take part in bigger actions or lvl on their own by regular means.

The reason why something like low lvl PvP does not exist is that low lvl PvP chars or pretty much any low lvl char is not killing machine. In fact they are dieing machines. Also level difference between players makes everything even more messy than it already is and when you PvP at mid level then you can always expect that higher or max lvl player will come around and you are pretty much screwed. But thats also shame because something like low PvP would be certainly fun with worse gear etc. But I can't imagine how to implement such thing when we can't see our opponents level. Anyway things like PvP grounds (check my signature) could represent some kind of an exp gain for PvP chars. You join few fights in such PvP arena and reward would depend on your level scale. Lets say that players from 6 to 11 lvl would be able to join only something like "training ground" with no real reward from winning but some nice exp. From 12 to 17 lvl they would be able to connect to certain PvP arenas. At these mid levels they could be rewarded only with caps and/or exp (maybe possibility to choose between these or combine them). At higher levels 18-21 they would get also items as reward or maybe something like title to their name (when it comes down to tournaments then maybe cars as reward etc). Anyway PvP statistics should be implemented to "Kills" tab in pipboy. Number of killed players, deaths (not from environment), "honorable" kills (kills of players at your or higher lvl) etc. So when number of you "kills" exceeds number of "honorable kills" like 8 times you will get something like "Chicken" or "Psychopath" as prefix to your name (or just like player flag meaning we get reward for killing such guy or something).  Such features could make competing in PvP even more interesting.

Anyway leveling up PvP char in regular world using some "natural" means is tricky. Even when you find something that could work like source of exp its always hard to balance it and there is always abuse issue. But PvP/training grounds that stand apart from regular world could be easier to balance and abuse issues would be also not such threat there. Anyway if devs would just consider something like alternative means of exping for PvP chars or such training/PvP grounds then it will be more than appreciated.

[Kilgore]

Hmmm, how XP for holding town is exploitable (if it's given for every hour of keeping control for example)?

You said that all gang members would gain exp for TC. So now:
1. if it's big, it would lvl up all alts, which you don't like so much,
2. if it's small, it doesn't matter, so it's pointless,

But yeah, gaining exp for killing militia seems a better idea, since players have to pay for them. Still, you need to consider the possibility of killing your own militia for exp and then buying more of them as some kind of an exploit

The idea of creating "PvP training grounds" in order to gain experience by killing others is even worse. Imagine 5 people joining the fight and dying to their buddy to let him exp quickly.

[Sius]

The idea of creating "PvP training grounds" in order to gain experience by killing others is even worse. Imagine 5 people joining the fight and dying to their buddy to let him exp quickly.

Well the main strength of PvP training grounds is that they should stand apart from world and they could follow their own rules that are not possible to apply in rest of the wasteland (not loosing stuff with respawn, faster respawns etc). Maybe it should not be only pure PvP but mix of PvP and fight based PvE where you as group of players that joined the fight have to complete objectives such as infiltrating/defense of some fortress and AI would be your opponent (or combination of players and NPCs on both sides). That would leave real PvP battles only for higher lvl players. Anyway main problem with these is how to implement something like this with current game mechanics that are really nightmare to work with (insane balancing, a lot of abuse issues have to be taken in consideration etc...).

[Kilgore]

Why to come up with such complicated ideas when all you need is to bring back reasonable experience for killing critters. As I remember, it took more than 15k 5mm ammo to level up ONE 21lvl BG char (also, BGs were more powerful in those times and centaurs/floaters had much less HPs). Now as ammo is a pain in the ass to craft, it's no longer a problem, because accumulating so much of it takes more than 1 day wasted on exping your char.

It was all started by making exp from killing critters diminishing.. FA exping and other "experience exploits" were discovered in order to make your 21 lvl pvp chars. Personally, I think it's pathetic when I have to repeat some stupid things like hitting something and healing it, or other ways to fast exp, instead of just making ammo and going to kill some creatures/raiders/marauders and such. But I'll still do it (like others who like pvp), because to fight effectively, I need 21 lvl powerbuilds as everyone else and I'm not going to fight in serious battles with 3 CH crafter char, despite of how big will be your mouth while speaking about "lame powerbuilds for brainless pvp players".

[Sius]

Why to come up with such complicated ideas when all you need is to bring back reasonable experience for killing critters. As I remember, it took more than 15k 5mm ammo to level up ONE 21lvl BG char (also, BGs were more powerful in those times and centaurs/floaters had much less HPs). Now as ammo is a pain in the ass to craft, it's no longer a problem, because accumulating so much of it takes more than 1 day wasted on exping your char.

It was all started by making exp from killing critters diminishing.. FA exping and other "experience exploits" were discovered in order to make your 21 lvl pvp chars. Personally, I think it's pathetic when I have to repeat some stupid things like hitting something and healing it, or other ways to fast exp, instead of just making ammo and going to kill some creatures/raiders/marauders and such. But I'll still do it (like others who like pvp), because to fight effectively, I need 21 lvl powerbuilds as everyone else and I'm not going to fight in serious battles with 3 CH crafter char, despite of how big will be your mouth while speaking about "lame powerbuilds for brainless pvp players".

Well the problem is that devs seems to not like that option so thats why I'm trying to come up with something new. But its true that I would like to leave PvP grounds just for fight for reward/glory/fun rather than combine it with exping.

[Solar]

No, we don't like the option of finding one easy to level critter and that being ridden to 21 in no time at all. Killing critters needs more critter classes and better base xp for them.

One is a technical issue and one will hopefully be done before too long.

[bikkebakke]

No, we don't like the option of finding one easy to level critter and that being ridden to 21 in no time at all. Killing critters needs more critter classes and better base xp for them.

One is a technical issue and one will hopefully be done before too long.

I guess adding 3d to the game now will make it much more easier for you (devs) to add new creatures wich can be used for what you just said.

[avv]

Now that we got this cool reputation system it could be fused with exping. Imagine if you would be hired by npc faction to kill its enemies. Let's say it's slavers and rangers. Rangers hire you to kill slavers, you get good experience for every slaver you kill, your status among rangers increases but you'll be more hated among slavers. This way players could grow their exp and status at the same time. Once you're level 21, you're a respected member of rangers but most hated enemy of slavers. You're fully battle ready and there's no question who to go against.