Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Eternauta]

So I've had this in my mind since I started playing 2238, and now that with the recent tent rework you can even add a "primitive workbench" to your tent, I guess I can just post about it.

Why not change the word primitive and use rudimentary or improvised instead? Of course I understand the intention is to use primitive with the meaning of rudimentary, but the word primitive has also some other different meanings, leftovers of the 19th century ideology of European superiority over basically all, every and any culture that was not European.

My exact point is: the word primitive does not just mean "rudimentary", it usually has a negative value as well. The word primitive, used to describe an improvised tool you make with flint, even sounds weird for me in the context of the Fallout world, where many people tend to discriminate tribals, seeing them exactly as "primitive" (with a meaning close to what I mentioned in the paragraph above). In the Fallout world, a guy who survives in the wastes and does not come from one of the tribal societies, would probably not call his improvised tool "primitive", because "primitive" is what tribals are, but not him, or the tool he just made.

[Edit]
If you don't understand what I mean when I talk about discrimination against tribals, just start Fallout 2 and travel to Klamath, try talking to Aldo the Greeter and don't give him any tip, talk to the older Buckner and read what she says about civilized folk and stuff like that. You can also recruit Cassidy and ask him what weapons he can use, and pay attention to what he says when talking about spears. The game has some other examples, but these are the ones I remember at the moment.
[/Edit]

I hope I've explained the idea clearly enough.

[TKs-KaBoom]

you dont have enough PC bullshit IRL you need to PC this game to?  What else are you offeneded by?  I don't even know whether to take this thread seriously or if its just obvious flamebait?

Perhaps if historically people were called "rudimentary", that word would have taken on the same connotation?  Perhaps...... maybe..... just think about it...... let it sink in for a minute.......  light bulb yet?

[BenKain]

Woah, woah, woah. From what I'm to understand, Etern is not saying it personally offends him in any way, he is just suggesting that any character that doesn't have an Intelligence of one would not associate himself in any way with "Primitive" society, by calling his tools as such. I for one, give this a +1.

The only person who is inciting flame with this reasonable suggestion is you, Kaboom.   

[Aoife]

Of all the things that should be addressed in game development this seems rather nit picky considering the world in which this game takes place.  It is a post apocalyptic game.  There will be discrimination in such a world.  And any character with any intelligence would consider such a tool to be primitive as they would be familiar with more advanced technology. 

[Alvarez]

We hadnt any problems with Primitive Tool, either.

Apart from this, makeshift things tend to be primitive, so there is no offence in the description, IMHO.
We call it Primitive Workbench, not Bench Made By Primitives, too.

[Eternauta]

As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community. Let's see...

you dont have enough PC bullshit IRL you need to PC this game to?  What else are you offeneded by?  I don't even know whether to take this thread seriously or if its just obvious flamebait?

For the record, no I do not feel offended by some ingame item with the word "primitive" in its name, I was just explaining where the negative value that is often integrated in the word primitive comes from.

Perhaps if historically people were called "rudimentary", that word would have taken on the same connotation?  Perhaps...... maybe..... just think about it...... let it sink in for a minute.......  light bulb yet?

That's a purely hypothetical scenario. If the word rudimentary would have been used instead of primitive, then of course I would be suggesting to change rudimentary and use primitive instead, if the first was used in the game. But that isn't the case. What you said is kinda like saying, "black people could have been called black instead of niggers, so why can't I call them niggers?".

Do you study linguistics? Most probably not, but I personally do. If you want to keep talking on that level of hypothesis, go troll some other guy's thread, not this. Thanks.

From what I'm to understand, Etern is not saying it personally offends him in any way, he is just suggesting that any character that doesn't have an Intelligence of one would not associate himself in any way with "Primitive" society, by calling his tools as such.

Actually, considering other's cultures "primitive" has nothing to do with an individual's intelligence, it's a cultural thing. You will find very intelligent people in tribal societies (both in the real wolrd and in the Fallout one), but members of a different culture would probably consider that tribal one as a "primitive" one, and consider their members to have low intelligence, for example because they can't speak English or other European language.

Of all the things that should be addressed in game development this seems rather nit picky

It's a matter of a single word to be changed, it's of course very minor but doesn't require a huge developing effort either.

considering the world in which this game takes place.  It is a post apocalyptic game.  There will be discrimination in such a world.  And any character with any intelligence would consider such a tool to be primitive as they would be familiar with more advanced technology. 

Indeed there would and there is discrimination in the Fallout world, so "civilized" folk would probably never call their improvised tools "primitive", because that'd be like saying they're similar to tribals.

Apart from this, makeshift things tend to be primitive, so there is no offence in the description, IMHO.
We call it Primitive Workbench, not Bench Made By Primitives, too.

Did you not read the first post? ... Let me quote it for you:

Of course I understand the intention is to use primitive with the meaning of rudimentary, but the word primitive has also some other different meanings, leftovers of the 19th century ideology of European superiority over basically all, every and any culture that was not European.

My exact point is: the word primitive does not just mean "rudimentary", it usually has a negative value as well.

[T-888]

My exact point is: the word primitive does not just mean "rudimentary", it usually has a negative value as well.

It doesn't hold any negative values since it is not in such context in order to indicate them as negative.

It would be like me pointing out Racism if some weapon was called, "Black Shotgun", or "Brown Pistol", because those words hold negative values concerning racism, but they just indicate the weapons color, just like "primitive" is used as "rudimentary" only concerning the tools design and nothing more. It doesn't have to be made by primitives or something, just simply that the design of it is poor.

Of course I understand the intention is to use primitive with the meaning of rudimentary, but the word primitive has also some other different meanings, leftovers of the 19th century ideology of European superiority over basically all, every and any culture that was not European.

So, not a viable point.

You simply choose to perceive it the wrong way and over-exaggerate.

As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community. Let's see...

Nah, I think you just got messed up in your mind, it happens to everyone.

So what is your suggestion, change some words because for you it resembles a tribal or something?

I don't want to sink into this, but it seems like some rubber stretching and nothing more.

I can see that players seriously don't have anything to do in this game.

[Alvarez]

As I was afraid, the concept was a little too difficult to understand by most members of this fine community.

Excuse me, but let's not fall in arrogance towards other forum members, shall we? This only undermines your image and POV.

For the record, no I do not feel offended by some ingame item with the word "primitive" in its name, I was just explaining where the negative value that is often integrated in the word primitive comes from.

So where is the problem, if you don't feel offended by this word? The case is: do the players feel the same way you do? Must they feel offended by this word? Are they reading between the lines every time? I don't think so.

That's a purely hypothetical scenario. If the word rudimentary would have been used instead of primitive, then of course I would be suggesting to change rudimentary and use primitive instead, if the first was used in the game. But that isn't the case. What you said is kinda like saying, "black people could have been called black instead of niggers, so why can't I call them niggers?".

"Nigger" is a racial slur. "Primitive" is, according to Dictionary.com is not even in technical use in Athropology.

Do you study linguistics? Most probably not, but I personally do.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but a MMOG forum is probably not the best place to discuss fine aspects of lingustics. Not everyone here have a major in linguistics and please, don't brag with it. It doesn't contribute to your good reputation here on forum.

Actually, considering other's cultures "primitive" has nothing to do with an individual's intelligence, it's a cultural thing. You will find very intelligent people in tribal societies (both in the real wolrd and in the Fallout one), but members of a different culture would probably consider that tribal one as a "primitive" one, and consider their members to have low intelligence, for example because they can't speak English or other European language.

You're straying off, the discussion here is not even about people called primitive.. See above, this word is not even applicable to people anymore.

It's a matter of a single word to be changed, it's of course very minor but doesn't require a huge developing effort either.

Cui bono? You? I have a impression that this change serves as a reason for a mere discussion and why not? Let's see something else than trolling and walls of text. I wouldn't even think, that you want to push such a suggestion through just for kicks and your own profiliation as a respected person. I enjoy this so far.
But seriously, this is a really minor issue.

Indeed there would and there is discrimination in the Fallout world, so "civilized" folk would probably never call their improvised tools "primitive", because that'd be like saying they're similar to tribals.

No. They would probably call it a "crappy workbench". Is this what we want? I think "crappy" is politically correct word.
A not very elegant, but politically correct.

Did you not read the first post? ... Let me quote it for you:

Oh yes, i read it, don't quote yourself, i used to do it earlier, it was a nasty habit.

And damn, T-888, you're a fast typer.

[Eternauta]

Hey thanks for the fast tiping, I don't see it as something negative.

I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone. Really Alvarez (or anyone else except Kaboom), if you felt attacked or whatever by that comment, it was *not* aimed at you so I'm honestly sorry and have no problem in saying that here and now. Anyway I would personally not contradict a chemistry student about chemistry, I think the same applies to the language, it's something you can study. I meant nothing more than that. But meh, that's not what is being discussed here.

The word crappy wouldn't be polite but imho would fit better than primitive and would be, and you said it yourself, something you could expect in the Fallout world. Oh and once again, it's not about being "politically correct", because in the Fallout world there would and there is discrimination, and that is why I don't think a guy from a non-tribal society would call the improvised tool he just made, "primitive", because that's how they see tribals, who are discriminated in the Fallout world. By calling his own tool "primitive" he would be associating himself with the discriminated tribals, so he would not do it. If he was a guy who discriminated tribals, he wouldn't like to be associated with a discriminated group he considers inferior. If he didn't discriminate tribals himself, then he wouldn't call his tool "primitive", because he wouldn't use words that incldue a value judgment, because he doesn't discriminate.

Crappy includes a value judgment too, but it's not a word that discriminates certain cultures, like primitive does. It could be used for that, but it needs a context: if a guy from the Fallout world said "this is a crappy tribal spear", he would be discriminating tribals, but if he just said "this is a crappy spear" he wouldn't, even if the spear was made by tribals.

For the second time already, it's not about feeling offended, I don't feel offended by how the word primitive is used. You're right that nigger has a racist connotation and so it's a different case than primitive, and you're right that primitive is a term used in Anthropology, but that's what I was talking about, it was used by European anthropologists to call other societies. But Anthropoly is not the main topic here, I just mentioned that to explain where the negative meaning of the word primitive comes from. It was not my goal to criticize anthropologists, or Europeans, or European anthropologists.

And for the second time already, I know devs didn't have that negative meaning in mind when they named the item "primitive tool" (or "primitive workbench" now, as well). That is exactly why I think rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture (or an object or person from that culture) inferior, compared to another one, for example your own. Rudimentary doesn't have that meaning. Rudimentary does mean "less developed" or "improvised" (which is what the devs wanted to say with primitive I am sure), but it does not include a value judgment.

[Alvarez]

I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone. Really Alvarez (or anyone else except Kaboom), if you felt attacked or whatever by that comment, it was *not* aimed at you so I'm honestly sorry and have no problem in saying that here and now.

But Anthropoly is not the main topic here, I just mentioned that to explain where the negative meaning of the word primitive comes from. It was not my goal to criticize anthropologists, or Europeans, or European anthropologists.

I'm glad we sorted it out, Eternauta, i appreciate it a lot.

And for the second time already, I know devs didn't have that negative meaning in mind when they named the item "primitive tool" (or "primitive workbench" now, as well).

That was my guess.

That is exactly why I suggest rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture (or an object or person from that culture) inferior, compared to another one, for example your own. Rudimentary doesn't have that meaning. Rudimentary does mean "less developed" or "improvised" (which is what the devs wanted to say with primitive I am sure), but it does not include a value judgment.

I really like the word "improvised". If "primitive" would be changed into "improvised", i'd totally support it.

[Slaver Snipe]

I think it funny that you believe people thinking other cultures as primitive to be strictly European, most cultures believe/believed that theirs was superior to others not just Europeans, but I digress, Yes, rudimentary (synonym of primitive) and improvised could work in it's place but there is no reason for the change at all.  If someone makes a tool out of flint and wood they found lying around it is primitive, there is no reason to change primitive to use a word that means the EXACT same thing in that context.  If there is any negative connotation in the word that is perfectly fine due to the fact that if you were to have the choice between a chainsaw or said primitive tool, a negative connotation would and should be implied that the primitive tool is not as good at chopping down trees.

Whenever I hand craft something that I know I could get elsewhere and it would be superior I think of it as primitive so please don't try to say wastelanders wouldn't use that term because it somehow (in your mind) would be calling themselves similar to tribals for example if tribals don't mine and I use a primitive pick to do so, how does it make me similar to them or I craft a pipe rifle and tribals don't use guns.

If you truly want to nitpick I can too and say rudimentary can't be used because It also has more than one meaning for example Being in the earliest stages, If i make a rudimentary tool it COULD mean It is merely basic or I haven't finished making it.

Improvise couldn't be used either since it can also mean doing something with little preparation but making an improvised tool or workbench could take quite a bit of preparation.  All of this of course depends on which actual dictionary you choose as the basis for the meaning of the words.

I guess I'm just here to have a wall of text saying this suggestion is pointless and please stop your European bashing.  (Please don't deny it, you saying the meaning of primitive is a 19th century European creation, your example of a European culture considering another to have low intelligence because they can't speak their language)

[Eternauta]

Slaver Snipe, have you not read the thread completely, or do you just want to misunderstand what I said?

The value judgment is something the Europeans had in their vision of other cultures during the 19th century... I am not bashing the Europeans, I am just saying where it came from.

Hell, in my country during the 19th century, some authors considered local indigenous people and rural people to be primitive, barbarian and inferior, I am not  saying it's in the Europeans' nature to discriminate, I am saying that European thought and science used to discriminate. These Argentineans who discriminated indigenous societies were readers of European thought.

In short, I am not saying "Europeans discriminate", I am saying "discrimination used to be present in European science during the 19th century and that is where the negative meaning, the value judgment in the word primitive comes from".

Oh and about what you said, about the word rudimentary, that's something that actually has to do with the discussion I wanted to bring up here, and I too think improvised would be a better choice for the Primitive Tool, not so sure thought about the Primitive Workbench, because, if I understand correctly, it actually is an inferior Workbench.

[T-888]

Crappy includes a value judgment too, but it's not a word that discriminates certain cultures, like primitive does. It could be used for that, but it needs a context: if a guy from the Fallout world said "this is a crappy tribal spear", he would be discriminating tribals, but if he just said "this is a crappy spear" he wouldn't, even if the spear was made by tribals.

"This is a primitive spear"

There is no indication that it is made by a tribal, it cannot discriminate a culture if it is not in a proper context.

"Black shotgun"

By your logic it is a word that can discriminate race and could not be used to indicate the color, because another word might be more appropriate to do it, that's your whole thought process on the subject and it is very ridiculous.

Like we would need to find another word how to call a Black shotgun, right? Dark, shotgun? But then again, dark doesn't really cache essence, because it is associated by light, not by color etc. etc.



Black shotgun is a shotgun of color black and a primitive tool, is just a tool of primitive kind.

That is exactly why I think rudimentary or improvised would be better: primitive is a word you can use to call another culture

Words have different meanings, when it comes to an item, primitive associates with the poor design, improvised doesn't account for that. It can be improvised, but it doesn't mean it has to be of poor design, it can be improvised and be of good quality.

Look, one definition I found on rudimentary on the first page of Google.

ru·di·men·ta·ry

2 :of a primitive kind <the equipment of these past empire-builders was rudimentary — A. J. Toynbee>

Of a primitive kind, but not by a primitive culture, or by a primitive, just that it is of poor design. I don't see how a "primitive tool" could be understood any differently unless "tool of primitives, made by primitives".

God, how can you write so much irrelevant information on the topic. This is even for me hard to comprehend.

Don't have to be some expert on vocabulary or whatever, to just think logically and rationally.

No, I won't be freakishly nice and polite just to hug you know.

And damn, T-888, you're a fast typer.

I broke my speed record in Idling subject topic, I think.

Kidding, no I don't write very fast. Maybe faster than average people, but who the hell cares, like anyone is going to measure it.

[Slaver Snipe]

Okay how about we try this,

Your suggestion is to change primitive with something else
You chose to use an example of Europeans specifically multiple times even though it is not needed and most everyone knows what the negative connotation of primitive is
You want the word changed even though most people (everyone?) realize what form it is being used in
You decide you should insult community members by saying that the concept is too hard to understand for most of them

You think a wastelander wouldn't call his self made POS item primitive because it somehow groups him in with tribals (he calls it primitive realizing it isn't as good as it could be whereas said tribal would merely call it an axe/hatchet which actually puts him farther away from being a tribal by differentiating his poor excuse of an item for the real thing) or if he himself didn't discriminate against tribals that he would refuse to use a word in his extensive vocabulary just because it can have a negative connotation (Unrealistic as it's merely describing the item as sub par, it's not like he would say a man stole his money instead of saying a tribal or insert PC word for tribal in fallout universe stole his money)

That's about right correct?  For someone who studies linguistics you seem to have an axe to grind against using a correct word to describe an item just because it can have another meaning.  Do you really think there was a major point to this suggestion?  How many people do you truly believe took primitive in a negative way regarding the description of an item that is barely adequate in doing it's job?  But just because you REALLY REALLY want this changed how about going with makeshift.

P.S. Calling another culture rudimentary implies inferiority

[TKs-KaBoom]

Hey thanks for the fast tiping, I don't see it as something negative.

I don't want to have an arrogant attitude towards other players, nor do I want to look like T-888 I meant all that for Kaboom, who posted in an almost violent tone.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME!!!!!!!   I NEED LINGUSTIC LESSON, PLEASE EDUCATE ME! OHHHHHHHHHHHH I AM SO VIOLENT!!!!!!!!!! gRRRRRRRR aWWWWWWWRRRRRR

Thank God (my specific superior deity naturally) you are a sane, non prejudical moderator without an obvious agenda