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Author Topic: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP  (Read 15116 times)

Ganado

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 07:00:37 am »

... + 1 animal (dog/brahmin) nothing more.
Why the hate for the brahmin? At most, they are 35 HP meat shields, and their hides are probably more valuable than anything else. I would like to bring back no limit for brahmin, or at least a large limit.
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Shit! Damn admins! Always ruining my fun! I guess I'll talk to them. WITH MY FISTS!!!! No seriously, I will write them a nice email or make a thread on the forums or something. Thanks!

Rocket Man

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2012, 07:06:46 am »

Why the hate for the brahmin? At most, they are 35 HP meat shields, and their hides are probably more valuable than anything else. I would like to bring back no limit for brahmin, or at least a large limit.
I would really like this as well.  They're brahmin.  It's not like you can strap dual-miniguns to it and strap armors and cybernetics and send 10,000 out at once to take over the world and lasers come out their eyes.
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TKs-KaBoom

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2012, 07:54:00 am »

Why the hate for the brahmin? At most, they are 35 HP meat shields, and their hides are probably more valuable than anything else. I would like to bring back no limit for brahmin, or at least a large limit.

There is nothing more scary to a fully geared pro trained ape then a herd of cows barreling down the dusty road full stampede towards them!  As there monkey eyes get all big and you can tell there is a load in there shorts overcome with fear, unable to move!  Transfixed and mesmerized by the cloud of dust seemingly moving towards them like a ghost, paralyzed in there hellish gaze then there terrible battle cry!   Mooooooooooo?

:)
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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 07:59:45 am »

But I think mercs should have removed auto-attack order, it's the lamest part of mercs. Without auto-attack they would become more vulnerable to one-hexing and sneakers. In result bombing grid and relogging wouldn't work that well (if at all).
False and will not solve anything.

The problem certainly isn't how they work, but the lack of healthy moderation, restriction, limitation on how the feature can be used. Currently infinitely if invested enough amount of resources and time.
This.
If you don't know how to effectively limit it, then it's better to remove mercs/slaves at all or to make them never attack players.

Ofc for now, if you disable their autoattack and especially make them do nothing as long as their leader is in (off) state, then it will be better than nothing.

DeputyDope

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2012, 08:19:51 am »

why stop SLAVE madness? they're mostly shitty and it takes a long time to get them anyway.

problem will be solved when dual-log/fast-relog will not be possible for combat purposes.
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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2012, 08:55:42 am »

Slaves and mercs are shit for the most part. 8 of the best slaves will still get swiss cheesed by 2 pvp builds easily and the only mercs that aren't total shit cost a ton and are a black hole for equipment. If anything follower builds are underpowered but of course the fonline pvp whine train can't stop until everything but bg no longer exists.
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jacky.

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2012, 10:38:22 am »

Because dope u can spawn 10slavers with 7-9mercs with frag nades and u cant kill them. Yesterday we spawned in redding small army of mutants and it is sad now Tc fights arent about players but who have more mercs on wm. U cant win if u have to fight 17players and 20mutants on ur back.
Best option would be remove mercs and leave only companions.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 10:40:25 am by jacky. »
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JovankaB

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2012, 10:44:03 am »

If unarmed mutants can effectively use grenades then it's a bug.
If they were just unarmed mutants without auto-attack they wouldn't be such a threat.

Their price could be increased a bit too, if they cost 50 caps it's really silly.
You shovel 5 shits to get a supermutant. That's wrong I think.

And mercenaries with owner logged off or dead should run away if not harassed.
I'm not sure how it is now.

Finally, they should only protect owner (and each other) not whole faction.
Auto-attack should be option to guard base/tent from intruders and that's all IMO.

I think the changes would limit alt-abusing followers in gangs.
If someone would like to play merc leader it would be still possible but would have
to play like a leader not grid bomber.


I don't get whole "it's not PvE". NPCs and followers are part of the game, if you want
to play clean, fair PvP matches go to Hinkly. The game never was a tournament platform.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 11:02:43 am by JovankaB »
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DocAN.

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2012, 11:40:53 am »

Why the hate for the brahmin? At most, they are 35 HP meat shields, and their hides are probably more valuable than anything else. I would like to bring back no limit for brahmin, or at least a large limit.

You havnt seen my Brahmins with 200+ hp
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Mayck

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2012, 12:01:03 pm »

I would like to bring back no limit for brahmin, or at least a large limit.
I never got why you need 2 dogs to guard one extra brahmin. It should be other way around, one dog for 2 brahmin (if it should be dog dependant at all).
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jacky.

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 01:10:30 pm »

But there is no point jov. Tnb have unlimited money as they will just use rl muties what is evem worst. Same slaves with grenades are op. Problem with mercs they can be spawned in critical ammount in tc. Why not remove them and leave only followers? Increase numer of spawning followers and remove mercs.
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LeMark

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 05:27:22 pm »

If unarmed mutants can effectively use grenades then it's a bug.
If they were just unarmed mutants without auto-attack they wouldn't be such a threat.

Their price could be increased a bit too, if they cost 50 caps it's really silly.
You shovel 5 shits to get a supermutant. That's wrong I think.

And mercenaries with owner logged off or dead should run away if not harassed.
I'm not sure how it is now.

Finally, they should only protect owner (and each other) not whole faction.
Auto-attack should be option to guard base/tent from intruders and that's all IMO.

I think the changes would limit alt-abusing followers in gangs.
If someone would like to play merc leader it would be still possible but would have
to play like a leader not grid bomber.


I don't get whole "it's not PvE". NPCs and followers are part of the game, if you want
to play clean, fair PvP matches go to Hinkly. The game never was a tournament platform.

All good idea, but at the end that will just not work and we will still see 1 guys farming machine with mass merc and PVP town full of merc / slave. Is time to fix it once for all, no to try, you already did and fail.
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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 06:27:38 pm »

This.
If you don't know how to effectively limit it, then it's better to remove mercs/slaves at all or to make them never attack players.

Wasn't my intention to propose to scrap the feature entirely, that's your solution for the problem. I don't support the idea, because mercenaries and slaves are a viable factor in unregulated, unscheduled, global fights. It's not fair, but it shouldn't be, just the lack of proper limitation. There's more than that possible - scraping a good feature from player interaction, there has to be an alternative. Mercenaries, slaves wouldn't play such a huge role, if they would be properly moderated by some sort of factors. They are in the game after all.

That's IF there is infinite amount of time and enough resources to supplement the effort, currently there is no limit on it, but with periodic wipe system it wouldn't be the case as players couldn't just solely focus on such type of action, thus decreasing the chance to be in the same situation which is present now.

It's plausible of course to be effective enough on its own to prevent future damage, but I think it's better than scraping the feature entirely.

If unarmed mutants can effectively use grenades then it's a bug.
If they were just unarmed mutants without auto-attack they wouldn't be such a threat.

They also can use Gatling, Plasma, Laser rifle to about an approximate of 10~ hexes range.

And mercenaries with owner logged off or dead should run away if not harassed.
I'm not sure how it is now.

Currently if your logged off, your mercenaries act normally.

Finally, they should only protect owner (and each other) not whole faction.
Auto-attack should be option to guard base/tent from intruders and that's all IMO.

Exactly.

I don't get whole "it's not PvE". NPCs and followers are part of the game, if you want
to play clean, fair PvP matches go to Hinkly. The game never was a tournament platform.

Agreed.

I can add.

Quote
Number of Slaves you can have is 2 + number of Mercs you own

It's over kill in my opinion, 10 man group of mercenaries/slaves can be achieved so easily forming "air strikes". Slaves should be as any other follower, taking up Party Points, like 50 per a slave. Previous session maximum of 5 slaves was good, I had a slaver on my own and it was balanced nicely.

Thus.

Quote
Dog/Brahmin

Shouldn't take up any, why a slave doesn't need PP, but a dog requires? Just doesn't make sense.

I never got why you need 2 dogs to guard one extra brahmin. It should be other way around, one dog for 2 brahmin (if it should be dog dependant at all).

This.

...

Another thing, regular energy weapon mercenaries that can be bought for 1k approximately, they hold about 450 caps inside their inventory + a laser pistol and you can get both out with gold nuggets, thus almost eliminating any cost. They use Plasma rifle, Gatling almost on max range, use Laser rifle effectively and all other energy weapons and with appropriate build they have a lot of HP and good resistances due to MAmk2 armor + their fast.

Their price needs to be like 5-6k at least, no caps in their inventories.

Tnb have unlimited money

Incorrect.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 06:32:38 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2012, 06:38:56 pm »

Price is nothing because playerbase divides into haves and not-haves anyway. Merc pack should be an item like gauss pistol to make it balanced.
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Re: Discussion: Stop this merc / slave madness in PVP
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2012, 06:59:44 pm »

Price is nothing because playerbase divides into haves and not-haves anyway. Merc pack should be an item like gauss pistol to make it balanced.

Incorrect.

If that would be the case, we'd see nothing but the most expensive mercenaries out in the field.

Look, even players who bring in these large amount of mercenaries in fights revolve around the most cost-efficient solutions, like the priceless unarmed mutants, regular rocket-launcher mutants who are extremely cost efficient of how durable they are and what firepower they bring in compared to regular mercenaries. Compare to the minigun version mutants, they cost like 7.5k~ more than rocket-launcher version, but are almost the same as the only difference is the weapon and some amount of HP and both can use the same weapons equally well.

That means the price is a large factor of what kind of mercenaries are used.

Balancing price depending on the mercenary ability is key point to focus on.

Quote
Minigun Mutant 14.5k~
RL mutant 7.5k~

must be with same health.

Minigun Mutant 14.5k~
RL mutant 14.5k~

That's balanced.
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