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vedaras:
yes, first of all we should not go into pvp and ask ourselves why normal player who doenst even pvp has tons of alts? and will he do well and find the game enjoyable without alts?
the sad thing is that the game is getting worse in this situation, now you must have a lockpicker for blueprints and all, and same shit in many ways, and some time ago you could have made more universal characters and do successfully in battles with them. So this problem is first to be solved in my opinion, only then fast relogging or dual logging :)

T-888:

--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---While I think that this is actually a very valid and probably important topic to bring up, a big problem (which I've seen mentioned in other topics, if I recall correctly) is the uncertainty regarding the direction of the game. That will probably reflected in the answers you get here, too. For example:

--- End quote ---

Direction of the game, hmm. Seems like a matter of opinion, what's important is to look at the greater good. Now that is something we could try to evaluate, more precisely, what type of game play would suit the common player better. That is why I asked the question, whether such a change holds possibility and value to improve the game play at all, maybe it's too extreme and needs a gold middle way, and that is why I asked whether some sort of middle way exists, "magic number."

Imagine some point, where the common player out there have enough space to variate and explore, search and experience the game while he isn't all to restricted, but players who like to have a challenge, surviving on their own their own, fulfilling their desires without being all to much at a disadvantage. Currently now a player witch likes to have that special something, that challenge. The sense of survival, you most probably know what I mean. Point is, those players are at a massive disadvantage. It's cool to make "the best build ever" and carry on as how you can at the best of your own capabilities and wits, but once it comes to interaction, competing your always below the average, no matter what you do some sort of alt will be better than you. You mentioned liking "to suck at something", but what if you suck at pretty much everything? That is how I see it, any of my alts will do anything you can and better. No trade, no choices, no consequences.

Now my idea, what if the alt amount was purely decreased and limited, but not just 1? Okay, maybe 2 alts per player. Now there is still limited choices between the both characters, they both can't do everything, the amount of alts isn't infinitive, wouldn't that improve the situation? You can still be special(compete and not be below the average) and players don't feel all too restricted, restrained.

Is there a gold middle way for this?



--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.

--- End quote ---

Mediocre, is something I see as a standard based on the total amount of ability to variate, to make choices. Once the player is limited to one character, he might feel all too restrained. The standard can be raised, like giving another tag skill, raising the total amount of skill points gained per level, as an example. Each character, player would still have the same standard just on a different scale, they all still would be mediocre based on everyone else.

But then again, we could allow an alt more or less.


--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm --- ... While I personally would like that change, I am the first to admit that it would break down in no time without the player numbers to support it ...

--- End quote ---

I'm thinking ahead a little bit, this is what i was afraid would going to happen, players too "boxed."

No sense of independence?


--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---Another thing to keep in mind here is that while I may argue that skillsets are not necessarilly what forces people to alt, some of the gameplay mechanics definitely may do. Take companions for instance (just because it's one of the things I've witnessed a lot firsthand). You regularly run into players who have alts just for checking bars via fast relog. I've actually gotten to talk to some of them, all upstanding individuals, I don't have any problem with them personally, for the record. But I believe it brings up a problem with the way the game works (which has been brought up in several other topics, as well), when players decide to go that route, because it is by far the most efficient one to achieve a personal goal. Again, there is an argument to be made for the situation changing radically with a one character rule.

--- End quote ---

Yes, acknowledged. Like Repair, for example, who couldn't live without some sort of way to maintain your own equipment, at least just a little bit, with low amount of Repair it is impossible and having to interact each time for that would be too time consuming and frustrating for some, like you mentioned before "who gets in with friends of the best crafting or the most". So, attacking features is definitely a viable option, for example, purely raising the amount of Repair skill gained from tools used to Repair something, anything, but make them break down more often and maybe a little bit more common than usually.


--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---Most importantly, though:Personally I'm a sucker for the idea of trying to survive with whatever limited skillset you happen to have. Quite obviously I cannot speak for everyone else and as much as I'd like to get rid of alts alltogether, my personal boundry for that is exactly what you stated here and I'd hate to see this option taken away from players who enjoy a variety of gameplay systems, at the very least under the current set of gameplay mechanics.

--- End quote ---

Yes, yes getting rid of alts, that is interesting. I once thought just like you, getting rid of alts all together, but when I thought this far, I snapped and started to think, what about the consequences if any. :)


--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---one source of the problem are the skill mechanics of the original F1/F2.

Point being: maybe that particular game design fossil needs a few serious overhauls, before we actually can achieve balanced diversity and realistically get rid of alts (if that would turn out to be the desire of the playerbase).

--- End quote ---

I'm not a fan of merging skills, I really am not, but sometimes it really does feel like the right thing to do, merging just an example of the modern style. Yeah, serious overhauls, never ending question of what everyone else would think about them (too far from cannon, this is not fallout anymore etc. etc.)


--- Quote from: Lordus on December 03, 2012, 10:27:48 pm --- Well, nice dreaming :)

--- End quote ---

Not anymore. Let's say Skycast blew my mind. He also likes rumors.


--- Quote from: avv on December 03, 2012, 10:06:45 pm ---It wouldn't end up that way with Skycast's idea. People would still make alts but they'd have to wait for the cd timer.

--- End quote ---

No, there are more clever ways how to change that in a game with more than one alt. What you are saying is your own idea. :)

avv:

--- Quote from: T-888 on December 03, 2012, 10:52:27 pm ---Is there a gold middle way for this?
--- End quote ---

One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)

For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.

Giftless:

--- Quote from: Malice Song on December 03, 2012, 09:25:26 pm ---Is it the skillsets that force alting or may it be the entitlement of the playerbase and the reluctance to accept that one's character may actually be mediocre at what he sets out to do? That's an honest question, personally I enjoy the limitations, but maybe there are people who absolutely cannot enjoy the game at all, if they don't have access to a 300 lockpick build. Which sounds like someone to me, who doesn't enjoy RPGs in the first place, but to each his own.
--- End quote ---

The Lockpick is a sore point for me actually, since early on it forced me to decide that BP hunting and any of the in-game dungeons (Tanker Quest, The Glow, Ares) were simply not worthwhile. Imagine any other RPG that gives you a hard time when opening all treasure chests--I don't think I can name one. Even in hardcore party-based D&D, a dedicated thief has a useful spread of abilities--including sneak, steal, dodging in combat, etc. The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.

T-888:

--- Quote from: avv on December 04, 2012, 12:00:27 am ---One char has to be able to do all of these PERFECTLY:
- Do PVE and pvp
- Carry
- Get everything needed to do pvp and pve (guns, drugs, armors, ammo)
- Get logistics (bases, cars)

--- End quote ---

Something universal, witch applies to everything and any situation, possible outcome of choices leading to same results with less efficiency between the gaps. I'm familiar with your idea, but it can't be done like you ask, depends on how do you define "perfectly?" To some extent in witch any player can compete or be same as everyone else? That is hard task to do, this is what I and Malice was talking about. Serious overhauls needed for this, that includes to dumb down the impact of the choices player makes (maybe not necessarily in a game where it is all about specialization, but questionable), for example, you can raise the base accuracy for all weapon skills by a large margin and skill points re-directed less effective, so any character can invest less or the same and be better overall despite the same margin of gap between the characters specialization. Filter?

Small Guns 50% base chance. 1% of skill increases 1% chance to hit. Players start off with 0 weapon skill, to understand more easily.

Power build invests 50 SP and gains 100% chance to hit at certain distance with 50% weapon skill.

Best build ever invests only 25, as best build ever wants to focus on other skills more and gains 75% chance to hit with 25 weapon skill.

or

Small Guns 75% base chance, 1% of skill points invested increases 0.5% chance to hit.

Power build invests 50 skill-points and gains 100%(weapon skill 50%) chance to hit at certain distance.

Best build ever invests only 25 and gains 87,5%(weapon skill 25%) chance to hit.

Both invested the same amount of Skill points at both scenarios. The gap between both build effectiveness is twice less, so ultimately best build ever will have an easier time competing, less at disadvantage by not specializing so much.

This principle is universal and can be applied to everything, carry weight, Science, Repair, OD etc. etc.


--- Quote from: avv on December 04, 2012, 12:00:27 am ---For example at this moment slavery quest is best way to get caps in my opinion. Alternatives have to be created so that everyone don't have to join slavers or make an alt. The alternatives have to be precisely as profitable to discourage alting attempts.
Stealing is the best way to get superstims, an alternative is needed so that people don't have to make alts. And once again, the alternative has to be exactly as effective as stealing.

--- End quote ---

This is way too simple, of course it's either a new quest for an alternative or just fixed crafting table in witch you can craft those SS equally well, just experience the way of how you gain caps, gain SS differently.


--- Quote from: Giftless on December 04, 2012, 12:04:54 am ---The fact that a useful thief kit can't be put together in fonline (sneak and lockpick together, imagine that) strikes me as a failure of some of the most basic RPG standards out there.

--- End quote ---

Actually it's doable, but not very practical, same goes for sneaker/steal character(although I've seen that kind of and they are more harder to detect and react on, so better in general, but still very high investment for that, the character is useless otherwise).

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