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Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 03:37:20 pm ---So what if someone is pushing his own agenda if he has a point? When talking about mechanics it's pretty easy to point out flaws if there's something wrong. Things like realism, what makes sense, what's fun and what's reasonable are harder to discuss. Farming volume is a good example of what's reasonable. Instadeaths have to do with what's fun.

--- End quote ---

Opinion =/= fact. All I've said was that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.

Oh, and I'm mercifully not even going to elaborate on the fact that every second person on these boards is pushing for shit that'd seriously impact basic game design, as if 2238 was still at the drawing board.

And no, I'm not at fault here because all I've been saying for those 3 long years was "if it works, leave it the hell alone".


--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 03:37:20 pm ---But you can't achieve victories with regular rate without them against teams who use them.

--- End quote ---

These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than a single session to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.

avv:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 03:52:49 pm ---Opinion =/= fact. All I've said that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.
--- End quote ---

So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.


--- Quote ---These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than 6 months to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.
--- End quote ---

But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters

Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 04:16:28 pm ---So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.

--- End quote ---
If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.


--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 04:16:28 pm ---But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters

--- End quote ---
That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not. You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.

And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.


--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 04:16:28 pm ---Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.

--- End quote ---
No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.


Anyway, imagine being back in 2009 settings with your 2012 knowledge of the game, alliances etc. Which balance changes (which were deemed "absolutely necessary" at the time by the whiners) would be appropriate with this hindsight? Sneak nerf? But we've almost come full circle with that feature. BG nerf? But hey, people have learned that SG are the only viable weapon in some situations and despite all this time consuming tweaking the game hasn't really changed that much. And so on and so worth. Basically every time a large shift in tactics occurred it was due to players noticing something new, not due to those so-called tweaks. And some of those tweaks created problems that weren't there before because knee-jerk reactions tend to yield results like that. A large segment of 3 years of development effort wasted on bullshit to cater to a group of people who by definition will never be pleased... was it really worth it?

avv:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 04:35:09 pm ---If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.
--- End quote ---

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.


--- Quote ---That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not.
--- End quote ---

This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.


--- Quote ---You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.
--- End quote ---

I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.


--- Quote ---And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them.
--- End quote ---

Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.


--- Quote ---Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them.
--- End quote ---

That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?


--- Quote ---Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit
--- End quote ---

Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.


--- Quote ---And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders.
--- End quote ---


Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?


--- Quote ---No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.
--- End quote ---

Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?

T-888:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 04:35:09 pm ---And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.

--- End quote ---

Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.

Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.


--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.

--- End quote ---

Yes, this is very funny, so by Boats logic we should never provide our opinion on game mechanics and try to build some general consensus, because everything is always fine and we shouldn't do something because some players might not like it and it's selfish, despite a large part might approve.

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