Other > Gang Issues
Sandokan proxy
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.
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It's not an assumption, there is hard data behind what I've said - there was a fair number of updates the devs backtracked on, ergo they were failed. If there was a large number of failed updates, pointing out flawed mechanics isn't easy, or at least you weren't there to point the devs in the right direction. Oh wait, you actually were, but it still happened.
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.
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No, this is a fact. Basic design by definition is basic, ie. determining how the details look like. 2238 is a game designed around extremely specialized characters, so basically it forces players to have numerous alts to be effective. If you remove alting and dual logs, the rest of the game stops being playable. I mean yeah, you could argue that this "stops being playable" part is an opinion, but then again the nature of players has proven me right when they dual logged and fast relogged en masse back when it was punishable by ban.
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.
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The issue was raised numerous times and the devs always got the same reply - it's the most effective way of playing the game for a player who wants to win (ie. survive longer than other players, especially in confrontational scenarios). The devs chose to manhandle players creating a rather arbitrary set of rules enforced by GMs instead of altering the game design to facilitate other styles of play. Personally, I think that allowing FR/DL is their way of saying that they were sort of wrong back then.
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.
That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?
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So yeah, shit probably requires some balancing. But hey, no balancing is possible because everything is changing on a monthly basis because the devs are making twitch changes to cater to hysterical player outbursts. Going at it one thing at a time would be a good start, instead we've got an angry mob screaming about FR, DL, critchance, AC trolls etc. Guess what happens when they try to tackle all this stuff at once? Yeah, another clusterfuck.
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.
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If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?
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Wait, so you're saying that in a highly competitive community people aren't playing with what they consider maximum effectiveness because of some unwritten code of chivalry? That's quite a stretch there given how assholish people can get in their choice of tactics here. The fact is nobody plays exclusively merc commanders, while back when militia was OP everyone was exploiting the militia system. That's the key difference between a broken mechanic and a mechanic that requires some fine-tuning perhaps. Otherwise you're just talking about your personal preferences.
--- Quote from: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm ---Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?
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I think that this issue is beyond the scope of this discussion. Do note the key difference between farming for gear and farming for alts, bases and cars. Bases, alts and cars stay and striving to get them is part of the early/mid game during every session - you get your setup, you focus on endgame - ie. the town control, roleplay or whatever else it is you seek. Meanwhile, farming for gear is a constant - you have to get your gear first to do anything else, creating an unhealthy (yeah, that's an opinion, albeit a common one) ratio of work:fun in game that is by definition supposed to be fun.
--- Quote from: T-888 on September 18, 2012, 05:40:44 pm ---Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.
Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.
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You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.
avv:
--- Quote ---If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?
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Because I don't want to. That's why.
About everything else: looks like we're fucked - as always.
naossano:
Fast relog/dual log is a feature on this new cession. there is no point banning people who use it.
It's like banning people who levelled a thief....
T-888:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 06:07:52 pm ---You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.
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Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)
I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: T-888 on September 18, 2012, 08:42:47 pm ---Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)
I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?
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I'm not really defending the AC trolls, I'm just bashing the attitude some players seem to have. I think people should stop being so pushy about controversial issues and the devs should stop getting pushed around when there's a split in the community and start listening when the community speaks more or less as one. But to be perfectly honest, I'd be happy if they just nerfed the AC builds and left the PvP alone like forever (or at least until some really game ruining build/glitch gets discovered). I mean a lot of people would probably disagree, but even those heavyhanded bullshit builds have some charm to them when they aren't so hard to hit, they tend to create hilarious situations when you're rushing to the help of a comrade who's getting his ass kicked in some dark alley by a jumpsuit wearing gentleman... I mean it's almost like the usual evening in the Bronx ;D
Anyhow, the way things are right now the economy is broken, there are few quests, leveling up and getting gear is all about boring grind while it should be about dynamically generated quests and soloing encounters later on... the list goes on and on, PvP really is fine as it is and the TC system is back to what made everyone more or less happy or at least didn't make anyone too angry. Imagine all the stuff we could have by now if the devs focused on adding to the game instead of playing one step forward two steps back with all the PvP mechanics... pretty saddening, really.
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