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Author Topic: Sandokan proxy  (Read 12299 times)

Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2012, 11:08:33 am »

I find it funny that people who were banned for FR/dl/FOCD are now against dual logs and are attacking Kilgore who wasn't banned during the 2010 ban wave. Come on, it's the internet, shit posted once stays on forever - nobody forgot what happened back then. The towns aren't empty because of how PvP works, they're empty because of 2 years of tiresome out of combat gameplay (crafting, gathering, farming), bullshit balance changes like Parley or random nerfs/buffs and hilariously broken new TC mechanic every new season.

Now, here's a good reason why the devs shouldn't even read this thread: every single time this community disagrees on something, there's a 99% chance somebody's pushing his faction's politics or even his own personal agenda. It's been that way with weapon balance with people getting raped by a certain weapon crying for a nerf, right now it's the same with fast relogs and dual logs. I guarantee you at least half of the people saying that FR/DL = cheats are hypocrites who simply want to limit access to these features and will start exploiting 3rd party tools and/or dynamic IPs to get an edge once the devs give in. It was the same with the weapon nerf/buff circle - same people complaining first about BGs (because they got killed by BGs), than after a nerf about SGs (because suddenly they still get owned but their opressors had to switch to SGs due to bullshit nerf), than about BGs again... you get the drift.

The message here is simple - stop trying to dick around with game balance, the only things that deserve to be scrapped are things that everyone, even people gaining notoriety in using them complain about - like SD nades or AC trolls. Even then, it should be a last resort, not a knee jerk reaction. You're just wasting the devs' time here, instead of helping you with your petty nerf/buff politics they could be working on stuff that'd make this game more playable for newcomers and smaller factions, which would mean more players and more action in PvP in the future.

And before somebody says that using multiple alts places the entry barrier too high for smaller teams - that's total brahmin crap and you know it. People who can't enter PvP are limited by the numbers of their faction, not by the number of their alts. Most of them actually have enough or more to bring it in, they just lack the organization to make an impact. Besides given the level cap it takes like 2 days to level up a character on 2238, building 6 alts is still less time consuming than finalizing a single build in most other mmos. Domination mode would be a good way of getting rid of that problem, unfortunately we got influence based TC and Reno sewers (which incidentally is probably the best map on the server that will never see a lot of use) instead.

The punchline is simple - if you're losing, it's not due to FR/DL/crit too strong/BG too strong. Actually, the odds are high that you'd still be losing even if you had the monopoly on designing this stuff... so just stop it, it's painful to read this same old shit wrapped in a different paper every other week.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 11:24:01 am by Nice_Boat »
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Killer Rabbit

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2012, 12:55:56 pm »

let them cry...everyone use it (i was when i was playing) and every time when someone lost he blame CANADA or other shit. he will never admit i was worst and i need to inprove my PiViPi skrillllllex...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 12:58:53 pm by Killer Rabbit »
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Shangalar

  • Dictatorial Tyrant
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2012, 01:19:42 pm »

Goddamn speech.

Amen to everything you've said.

Cyber Jesus

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2012, 02:52:40 pm »

I would also like to report this ''dual log'' user
Pic:
May justice be served!
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avv

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2012, 03:37:20 pm »

Quote
Now, here's a good reason why the devs shouldn't even read this thread: every single time this community disagrees on something, there's a 99% chance somebody's pushing his faction's politics or even his own personal agenda.

So what if someone is pushing his own agenda if he has a point? When talking about mechanics it's pretty easy to point out flaws if there's something wrong. Things like realism, what makes sense, what's fun and what's reasonable are harder to discuss. Farming volume is a good example of what's reasonable. Instadeaths have to do with what's fun.

Quote
The punchline is simple - if you're losing, it's not due to FR/DL/crit too strong/BG too strong.

But you can't achieve victories with regular rate without them against teams who use them.
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Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2012, 03:52:49 pm »

So what if someone is pushing his own agenda if he has a point? When talking about mechanics it's pretty easy to point out flaws if there's something wrong. Things like realism, what makes sense, what's fun and what's reasonable are harder to discuss. Farming volume is a good example of what's reasonable. Instadeaths have to do with what's fun.

Opinion =/= fact. All I've said was that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.

Oh, and I'm mercifully not even going to elaborate on the fact that every second person on these boards is pushing for shit that'd seriously impact basic game design, as if 2238 was still at the drawing board.

And no, I'm not at fault here because all I've been saying for those 3 long years was "if it works, leave it the hell alone".

But you can't achieve victories with regular rate without them against teams who use them.

These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than a single session to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 04:18:36 pm by Nice_Boat »
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avv

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2012, 04:16:28 pm »

Opinion =/= fact. All I've said that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.

So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.

Quote
These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than 6 months to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.

But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters

Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.




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Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2012, 04:35:09 pm »

So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.
If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.

But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters
That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not. You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.

And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.

Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.
No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.


Anyway, imagine being back in 2009 settings with your 2012 knowledge of the game, alliances etc. Which balance changes (which were deemed "absolutely necessary" at the time by the whiners) would be appropriate with this hindsight? Sneak nerf? But we've almost come full circle with that feature. BG nerf? But hey, people have learned that SG are the only viable weapon in some situations and despite all this time consuming tweaking the game hasn't really changed that much. And so on and so worth. Basically every time a large shift in tactics occurred it was due to players noticing something new, not due to those so-called tweaks. And some of those tweaks created problems that weren't there before because knee-jerk reactions tend to yield results like that. A large segment of 3 years of development effort wasted on bullshit to cater to a group of people who by definition will never be pleased... was it really worth it?

avv

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm »

If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.

Quote
That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not.

This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.

Quote
You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.

I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.

Quote
And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them.

Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.

Quote
Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them.

That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?

Quote
Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit

Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.

Quote
And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders.


Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?

Quote
No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.

Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2012, 05:40:44 pm »

And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.

Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.

Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.

Yes, this is very funny, so by Boats logic we should never provide our opinion on game mechanics and try to build some general consensus, because everything is always fine and we shouldn't do something because some players might not like it and it's selfish, despite a large part might approve.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:48:41 pm by T-888 »
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Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2012, 06:07:52 pm »

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.
It's not an assumption, there is hard data behind what I've said - there was a fair number of updates the devs backtracked on, ergo they were failed. If there was a large number of failed updates, pointing out flawed mechanics isn't easy, or at least you weren't there to point the devs in the right direction. Oh wait, you actually were, but it still happened.

This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.
No, this is a fact. Basic design by definition is basic, ie. determining how the details look like. 2238 is a game designed around extremely specialized characters, so basically it forces players to have numerous alts to be effective. If you remove alting and dual logs, the rest of the game stops being playable. I mean yeah, you could argue that this "stops being playable" part is an opinion, but then again the nature of players has proven me right when they dual logged and fast relogged en masse back when it was punishable by ban.

I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.
The issue was raised numerous times and the devs always got the same reply - it's the most effective way of playing the game for a player who wants to win (ie. survive longer than other players, especially in confrontational scenarios). The devs chose to manhandle players creating a rather arbitrary set of rules enforced by GMs instead of altering the game design to facilitate other styles of play. Personally, I think that allowing FR/DL is their way of saying that they were sort of wrong back then.

Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.

That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?
So yeah, shit probably requires some balancing. But hey, no balancing is possible because everything is changing on a monthly basis because the devs are making twitch changes to cater to hysterical player outbursts. Going at it one thing at a time would be a good start, instead we've got an angry mob screaming about FR, DL, critchance, AC trolls etc. Guess what happens when they try to tackle all this stuff at once? Yeah, another clusterfuck.

Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.
If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?
 
Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?
Wait, so you're saying that in a highly competitive community people aren't playing with what they consider maximum effectiveness because of some unwritten code of chivalry? That's quite a stretch there given how assholish people can get in their choice of tactics here. The fact is nobody plays exclusively merc commanders, while back when militia was OP everyone was exploiting the militia system. That's the key difference between a broken mechanic and a mechanic that requires some fine-tuning perhaps. Otherwise you're just talking about your personal preferences.

Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?
I think that this issue is beyond the scope of this discussion. Do note the key difference between farming for gear and farming for alts, bases and cars. Bases, alts and cars stay and striving to get them is part of the early/mid game during every session - you get your setup, you focus on endgame - ie. the town control, roleplay or whatever else it is you seek. Meanwhile, farming for gear is a constant - you have to get your gear first to do anything else, creating an unhealthy (yeah, that's an opinion, albeit a common one) ratio of work:fun in game that is by definition supposed to be fun.






Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.

Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.

You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 06:16:39 pm by Nice_Boat »
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avv

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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2012, 07:20:48 pm »

Quote
If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?

Because I don't want to. That's why.

About everything else: looks like we're fucked - as always.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2012, 08:27:21 pm »

Fast relog/dual log is a feature on this new cession. there is no point banning people who use it.

It's like banning people who levelled a thief....
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2012, 08:42:47 pm »

You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.

Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)

I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?
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Nice_Boat

  • I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
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Re: Sandokan proxy
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2012, 08:54:38 pm »

Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)

I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?

I'm not really defending the AC trolls, I'm just bashing the attitude some players seem to have. I think people should stop being so pushy about controversial issues and the devs should stop getting pushed around when there's a split in the community and start listening when the community speaks more or less as one. But to be perfectly honest, I'd be happy if they just nerfed the AC builds and left the PvP alone like forever (or at least until some really game ruining build/glitch gets discovered). I mean a lot of people would probably disagree, but even those heavyhanded bullshit builds have some charm to them when they aren't so hard to hit, they tend to create hilarious situations when you're rushing to the help of a comrade who's getting his ass kicked in some dark alley by a jumpsuit wearing gentleman... I mean it's almost like the usual evening in the Bronx ;D

Anyhow, the way things are right now the economy is broken, there are few quests, leveling up and getting gear is all about boring grind while it should be about dynamically generated quests and soloing encounters later on... the list goes on and on, PvP really is fine as it is and the TC system is back to what made everyone more or less happy or at least didn't make anyone too angry. Imagine all the stuff we could have by now if the devs focused on adding to the game instead of playing one step forward two steps back with all the PvP mechanics... pretty saddening, really.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:02:35 pm by Nice_Boat »
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