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[kochanie321]

As the subject says, I'd suggest giving a Strength Requirement on every weapon, like the one in Fallout Tactics, meaning that you are unable to wield a weapon that you do not have the minimum required Strength.

It's quite logical that a Sniper has to be able to hold his sniper rifle and to do that, he needs to be strong or else the shot would just blow his shoulder away.

Now you probably think that there already is a -20% to hit rate when you lack required Strength, well with 300% of Small Guns, that's no problem, and you can move those points to buff other stats to sick levels.

This one change would absolutely eliminate such things as a 1 Strength Snipers, or Big Guns users with only 4 Strength, by making them balance their points. Tit for tat. They can always take 3 points of strength and take weapon handlingto shoot their beloved weapons.

[JovankaB]

But 1 ST snipers have to take drugs, so it's not like they dump stats for free.
Except maybe some drugs are too easy to get if you control town.

[kochanie321]

If they wouldn't be dumping them with gain I guarantee you that there wouldn't be this many of them. As you just said with drugs, you got a big group which can easily control a town and take out buffots out of their arses, you can play without bothering. Strength Requirement cuts off such builds because they should never have existed if this would be a Fallout 2 system. I can't see going through the game with 1 strength, just to have other stats buffed. So yes, they do dump stats for free.

[Mayck]

Now you probably think that there already is a -20% to hit rate when you lack required Strength, well with 300% of Small Guns, that's no problem, and you can move those points to buff other stats to sick levels.

Above 175% of skill you need 50 (60 above 200%) skillpoints to compensate 20% penalty which is actually more than one extra stat point pumped to intelligence will give you, so it's actually better to pump that statpoint to strength already.
If someone pumps 300% SG skill to compensate for low strength, than it's his problem, because he just made a screwed up build.

Also even in tactics you could take drugs to compensate weak strength if I'm not mistaken

[kochanie321]

Above 175% of skill you need 50 (60 above 200%) skillpoints to compensate 20% penalty which is actually more than one extra stat point pumped to intelligence will give you, so it's actually better to pump that statpoint to strength already.
If someone pumps 300% SG skill to compensate for low strength, than it's his problem, because he just made a screwed up build.

Ahh but you see, once he gets 200%, there's still 120% left after lacking 4 strength, which can be easily updated with drugs.

As for fallout tactics and drugs, you could have done that with drugs yes but they were very rare and expensive plus there was always a limited amount of them. I remember buying psychos for my Death claw to keep him on his feet against bursts and such, and I had problems with getting them after playing a while. besides I never seen a recruit in tactics that would have 1 Strength.

Here the drugs are everywhere, so we can't compare this to fallout tactics when it comes to drugs.

[BursttoWin!]

I say this is an amazing idea. Let's be frank here. If there was a real strength requirement like there was in fallout tactics, there would be much less system loop-hole exploit.

I am sure that critical snipers with 1 in strength or heavy weapon specialists with 4 are absolutely gorgeous and fabulous when you play them, but no real sniper would have strength of 4 year old kid. Game may not be reality but it is still a loop-hole abuse. It's not smart, not clever, not amazingly creative.

If there was a strength limit like in fallout tactics, maybe at last people would have to think about those sniper or heavy weapon builds not just pack 1 - 4 strength and 1 charisma, just buff themselves up on easily accessible drugs, pack 300% in a weapon skill and fire away with critical alllll the way! So I say bring it on!

I am sure it may be a little programming work there. So I am sure it won't be done right now, but I guess it can be done right?

[Mayck]

I am not really sure where are you going with this. If there would be min ST req. like in tactics, people would just buff their strength with drugs so it would be still the same. So what would be the difference?

[T-888]

it is still a loop-hole abuse.

That is not a loophole it's meant like that, you can balance your build by whatever means necessary, consuming drugs is one of the way since you have to have a steady supply in order to fight, that's a choice and the consequence for that is that drugs on normal circumstances are hard to obtain, at least was previous session. Not everyone is a drugged up power-junkie in this game, changing Str makes no sense here.

Seems like new strangers in the town.

If there was a strength limit like in fallout tactics, maybe at last people would have to think about those sniper or heavy weapon builds not just pack 1 - 4 strength and 1 charisma, just buff themselves up on easily accessible drugs, pack 300% in a weapon skill and fire away with critical alllll the way! So I say bring it on!

I know quite a bit about builds and stuff like that, i can already tell you don't know what you are talking about.

buff themselves up on easily accessible drugs

This is a problem when it comes to jet, buffout, nuka, cigs and it won't get fixed until next wipe. Changing Str requirements won't fix that.

[kochanie321]

Well, they'd have to use more of them that way to even use the gun. If he'd get caught in to an encounter while travelling and had NO drugs with him, it would end rather crappy, because hey, he can't use his rifle or minigun until he takes them. So for them, it would be mighty inconvenient to go somewhere and be afraid that your drugs will ware of all of sudden and your rifle becomes unusable.

Besides if I am not mistaken drugs first buff you an than take from you, so that's a drawback itself, and you can't just take them again to regain what you lost.

That would be the difference, drugs needed to USE the gun in any situation. You go in to a city, and a wild PK appears and heck you can't use your rifle or minigun, because you don't have time to take your drugs. You're dead. Because that other guy didn't need drugs to shoot his gun.

They'd be totally drugs dependable. PvP, PvE, doesn't matter, wherever they'd go, they'd need drugs. A totally drug dependable build. Because now, they don't have to always depend on the drugs.

[T-888]

I don't think you are aware of how builds work in practice and what are the disadvantages to not using drugs on a fully committed powerbuild. For a common big gunner out there, it's going to be -3 action points (more if used on a regular basis due to addictions), -20%(up to -60% depending on how the build is made) to weapon skill and sometimes even less perception, less carry weight because for some builds it matters quite a lot so they can even take the necessary amount equipment to be able to fight at all. This talking about 300% weapon skill characters is even more nonsense than everything else, they just practically don't exist in game, because they aren't viable and practical.

A totally drug dependable build. Because now, they don't have to always depend on the drugs.

So? How is this an argument at all?

[kochanie321]

I don't think you are aware of how builds work in practice and what are the disadvantages to not using drugs on a fully committed powerbuild. For a common big gunner out there, it's going to be -3 action points (more if used on a regular basis due to addictions), -20%(up to -60% depending on how the build) to weapon skill and sometimes even less perception, carry weight because for some builds it matters quite a lot so they can even take the necessary amount equipment to be able to fight at all. This talking about 300% weapon skill characters is even more nonsense than everything else, they just practically don't exist in game, because they aren't viable and practical.

Still not as serious as not being able to use a weapon at all without using drugs, that's a serious argument. Making you think twice before going with such build, because you have to consider not being able to use your guns some times, which can be killer in PvP matches, or even PvE matches. I see that as fair. They could take a build with more strength and not need drugs, but they decided differently.

[Tomowolf]

It worked in FT, when you needed exact builds (players were getting same example builds from the clan site, or did them for yourself, but still they were same) it was balanced, and one more thing,people WEREN'T using drugs on some popular rulesets (2kh1, 2kh3, 1k, 5k) but only on 10k, and 150k, so your statement is failure.
Here people are mini-maxing builds, to get more than enough skill points, and enough st to use the weapon without penalty (or at least doing +20% more skill but -1 str and still it works).
It could work but in other way : change weapons reqs, like avenger for 8 str (like its in Ft, fair) bazooka and flamer for 6 st, lsw, m60 for 7 st.
This is just a proposition, if you don't like, write why, please.

[T-888]

Still not as serious as not being able to use a weapon at all without using drugs, that's a serious argument. Making you think twice before going with such build, because you have to consider not being able to use your guns some times, which can be killer in PvP matches, or even PvE matches. I see that as fair.

No, no you don't understand i'm asking you why is that an argument, seriousness isn't one and why the player shouldn't be able to use weapons without drugs at all, because it was like that in FT isn't an argument for it to be like that here, because this is a different game.

Doesn't work that way you describe in practice, go play town control, join a faction and experience the game a little bit more and then you will realize your suggested change would rather be a minor annoyance.

They could take a build with more strength and not need drugs, but they decided differently.

They can already do that, i said not everyone is a power-junkie in this game.

[kochanie321]

It worked in FT, when you needed exact builds (players were getting same example builds from the clan site, or did them for yourself, but still they were same) it was balanced, and one more thing,people WEREN'T using drugs on some popular rulesets (2kh1, 2kh3, 1k, 5k) but only on 10k, and 150k, so your statement is failure.
Here people are mini-maxing builds, to get more than enough skill points, and enough st to use the weapon without penalty (or at least doing +20% more skill but -1 str and still it works).
It could work but in other way : change weapons reqs, like avenger for 8 str (like its in Ft, fair) bazooka and flamer for 6 st, lsw, m60 for 7 st.
This is just a proposition, if you don't like, write why, please.

As T-8*8 already said, they'd just take more drugs than. There is probably a limit on how many you can take but they are not going to give you bigger addiction flaws because those are set from the start. Changing a Str requirement would only help as much as they'd need to use more drugs on them to use the stuff properly. Still not as much of a kick in the balls as not being able to use something at all.

[T-888]

No, everyone takes drugs before combat anyway, you won't ever see a guy in an encounter with unused drugs in his inventory so he isn't able to use his weapons and that playing some role in combat. Doesn't work that way in practice.

Still not as much of a kick in the balls as not being able to use something at all.

Rational thinking, why it should?